Hey guys,
Just finishing up the prep on getting my spare motor back in the car. Came across something a little "fishy". So, I swapped over just about everything that was on my 1.7, and this engine is *supposed* to be a 1.8. Everything fits just fine, except for the intake manifolds and gaskets. There are 4 intake manifold studs, but the outer studs are about 3/8 inches further apart than on the 1.8. So much so, that the new 1.7/1.8 phenolic spacers that I have do not fit over the studs. I noticed that the previous owner had cut the spacers in half to make two separate pieces, for each intake port. They still didn't fit quite right though, and part of the spacer protrudes into the intake hole/bore.

I'm wondering if these are some kind of other Type 4 head, perhaps from a bus? Pictures to follow in a moment...

Can you post the # on the heads? (gotta pull the tins back off)

What's the part #s on the intake manifolds?

Hey Mark...

Where are the casting numbers on the heads, when I pull them off?

These are (I believe) CB Performance manifolds - for a dual carb setup. The manifolds worked fine on my other motor. As did these manifold spacers (from Pelican).

I think the casting numbers are in the rocker box.

--DD

It was under the valve cover, not the engine tin.

022-101-372, which, according to :

http://www.tunacan.net/t4/reference/cylhead.htm

is a 1.7 head. This engine is supposed to be a 1.8, but that doesn't matter to me. I'm just curious why the dimensions of the studs are different than my 1.7.

That site also lists 022-101-372G as a 2.0. I couldn't see a "G" on the casting number for these heads, but I suppose it's a possibility. And the 2.0 bus heads are supposed to be four bolts as well.

Unfortunately that doesn't really help with the dimensions though.

That's weird

I know, right? Raby would know this one for sure.

I suspect they must be Bus heads. The three types of carb manifolds I have seen from CB Performance and various other manufacturers all have the outer holes elongated that seem to make up for this difference. Unfortunately the phenolic spacers do not. Had I known that they were bus heads, I could have ordered the correct spacers weeks ago.

How about the alignment with the holes on the intake manifold? (seems to me that's what matters)

The intake manifolds line up fine, from what I can tell. As I stated, they came pre-drilled, it seems, for both dimensions. I.e. the outer holes in the manifolds are elongated as if they were intended for dual-uses.

Well, I ended up installing them as-is with a gasket on both sides of the spacer. I'd still like to know what the difference is here and why the dimensions on these heads are what they are, but for now, hopefully it'll do.

Krusty should be able to answer the question ...

PM him if he doesn't pop in on this thread

I thought the outer hole elongation on the manifolds was to cover the difference between the outer bolts to work with both the 4 bolt and 3 bolt setups. I had no idea there were 2 different spacing of 4 bolt heads?

Was the mis-match the same on both heads? Could be that one of the studs pulled and the PO installed a crooked helicoil?

I have seen ONLY one 4 bolt intake manifold bolt pattern and one 3 bolt intake manifold bolt pattern on T4 heads, be they T2, T4, or 914. Lotsa heads over 40 years, no variations on the 4 bolt pattern. The Spanish heads, all for 2 liter bus, are the same, too.

The Cap'n

I was thinking similar when I saw the pix George posted, ("The tins fit normal - what would be the difference?")

George, did you snap any pix of the intake ports without the gaskets? Is there any evidence that the original studs may have been relocated (possibly to fit some oddball intake manifold somebody kludged together)?

I've seen different exhaust ports, but not intakes.

Yup. "Race track" looking exhaust ports and "square" ports (78 and up T2s and Vanagons).

The Cap'n

Yeah I knew about the square exhaust ports on the Vanagon heads, but not the intakes.

Both heads were the same (had the exact same dimension). I did see some welding on the backside of the intake stud (i.e. down in the fins area), but nothing blatantly obvious suggesting that it had been helicoiled before. Of course I was in too much of a rush to snap more pics. The intakes that came on the engine are a little odd. They're very short and used bolts instead of studs, so I guess it is possible the PO decided it would be easier to fill in the original stud holes, then re-drill it for these manifolds? They definitely weren't helicoiled though.

I got the engine from billh1963 off of that purty pink car with the flares he had sitting in his driveway. I don't think he knew much else about the history of the car, other than the engine had been rebuilt at some point.

Could be the 2.0 liter heads that someone removed the middle stud and added two studs to match the manifolds.

I believe the outer studs on a 2.0 liter are wider in spacing than either the 1.7 or 1.8 heads.

Rich

Looking at the pic, it looks like they're not original 3-stud ... they wouldn't have that separation between the ports.

Click to view attachment

Yeah I had considered that they were 2.0 heads that had been filled and re-drilled. But since the notch exists between the two ports and the casting number was that of a 1.7 (I think) then I guess the outer holes must have been moved for whatever reason.

I think next time I order the spacers I'll have to order then for a 2.0 and re-drill the two inner holes into the spacer.... or just leave it like it is.

could have been re-drilled to the 2.0 liter outer hole location at some point.

I know I have a set of shorty weber manifolds that only fit on the 2.0 liter.
I had to grind a large area out of the side, and weld up the tube to get them to fit a 1.8 head.

Stupid me, I could have moved the studs when I had the headwork done...but I did not know it was an issue at the time.

rich

The real question is, how does it run?



John

That's the engine out of the Pink Panther! Phil W and I both talked at length with the seller and he was adamant that the engine was rebuilt and had low miles. It was supposedly a 1.8L.....looks like that may debatable?

It'll run, well, it'll be STARTED tomorrow. Just finished putting the exhaust back on, all cables, temporarily setting up the linkage, adjusting valves, etc. Forgot how much work this is... and how awful is to work out in the rain and dirt. Just put in my first quarts of Brad Penn (the old motor didn't seem worth spending the extra $) too! Definitely has a different smell than just about every other oil I've ever used. And after getting it on my arms, it is STICKY stuff.

Bill, it may well have been rebuilt... but after re-sealing it all and cleaning everything up, it sat for quite some time. Had a little water in the oil, but everything still turned fine. No idea what the deal with the heads is. It's like the outer stud holes are from a 2.0 and the lower, inner holes are 1.7/1.8 dimensions. Again, the casting number indicated the heads were 1.8 though.

At some point I may revisit it, but I hate taking all the linkage, carbs and manifolds off. Especially with it raining every doggone day.

Can't wait to see what running on all four cylinders actually feels like.

That's called paying your dues. Some day, you'll be an old fart, have a garage and a lift

That's what my dad always told me Before I got to use the garage when I first started working on cars in high school, he made me work out under a tree for a few months. When I moved on to body work, he let me have a space inside... hard to get a decent coat of paint on the car when it's always covered in sand and leaves.

Funny thing, I was thinking about that tonight when working. Pretty sure my kid will be starting off the same way.

totally agree.

Did quite a few motors in the driveway, on stones, in dirt etc...
Even rebuilt a van motor from inside the van in a rest area over the course of two days....

Got a barn, lift and huge shop now...
Something to aspire to as you look for a house someday.
My barn is 10 times bigger than my house

Might I suggest something.
Go buy 4 pieces of plywood and lay them down under the car.
Then put a tarp over the car, sort of like a tent....
Something to keep you dry and out of the dirt and mud.

rich

I did my entire blue car restoration on paving stones under an easy up.

Including the paint job.

It does suck however when it rains all the time.

I did not do too much when it was really hot like it is now.

George is battling the sebring chump car race date of september 28.

John