Found this article about a electric 914 taking on the snake in LA.
http://www.bbc.com/autos/story/20130903-po...e-914-energised
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Cool!

"Emission free"? What about the 40% of So Cal's electrical power that comes from coal fired power plants?

The Cap'n

what would the cost be to convert to electric?

The article says that he did the work himself and spent $18,000 on the conversion…

The things people always miss with that argument are two fold:

* Efficiency
* Number of tail pipes

I've done the math as I was heavily involved in the Caltech EV Club and a good friend works for CARB. I still race and personally drive conventional cars, but only because I'm balancing the amount I drive vs. the price I need to buy in. As someone once said, "It's easier to tame one "tail pipe" than it is millions." And there is no debating the efficiency of an electric motor for transportation vs. a gas motor.

seems to me the claim was "Emissions free", not efficiency.

According to the coal industry, coal is a "clean burning" fuel.

That's correct. The car itself is emissions free. There aren't ANY emissions free power sources with the exception of solar power. No one will do any serious research into solar because there isn't as much profit as refining oil.

Not to mention the massive loss in transmission. These things are both fuel guzzlers and uber polluters. Take this from someone who works in environmental toxicology. Also they are more dangerous than normal cars because they hit people (pedestrians). BUT, they do in someone else's yard and keep their own clean.

I remember when the Prius first came out.
A study was done for "cradle to grave" and the impact to the environment of manufacture, operation, and recycling.
They compared a Prius to a Hummer H2.

Guess which one was more "environmentally friendly"?

Now that the NiCad battery packs are essentially extinct, it is different......

Tell that to the residents of Shiprock, NM ....................

The Cap'n

And to make this even more confusing, all fossil fuels are stored solar energy ...

Having lived with a 100% electric now for a year (a Think City), I can say that I am a convert. 16K miles (my wife commutes a lot) about 50 miles a day equates to about $8/week in electrical costs. (Wind, hydro & gas up here)

Not saying there aren't compromises, but as a commuter that handles 95% of our transportation needs - it works for us.

If I had to replace the Li-ion battery today, it wouldn't be cheap, but in ten years, and 160,000 miles figured into it - still far better than $3.50/gal gas.

with that said, my 43 year old (gas) 914 has a better environmental impact ratio than a new Prius.

I know MIT still has an electric 914 in their classroom/lab/shop. Saw it there last year when up visiting a friend.

Not really... because "Fossil Fuels" did not really all come from fossils.

Oil is primordial "goo" that is naturally occurring even in places where there was never any life.

Stu

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil

"Crude oil originates from ancient fossilized organic materials, such as zooplankton and algae, which geochemical processes convert into oil."

all grown (as you said before) from the energy of the sun.

Which law is this? Energy is not created, just transformed.

Rich

What?

There's this new thing called organic chemistry. You should check it out. From the UC Davis Chemistry department:

"It takes about 250-500 million years for fossil fuels to form. The process takes such a long time because fossil fuels are formed from fossilized remnants of plants and animals deep in the Earth's crust. Heat and pressure, out of contact with air, can transform the decomposed material into little sacks of gas and unrefined oil. The oil and gas then moves through the small holes of space in the rocks to eventually collect in reservoirs. Coal comes mainly from dead plants, much like the other two fossil fuels, which have been buried and compacted below the surface of the Earth."

Wikipedia is wrong.

Tell me then where did all the hydrocarbons (oceans of methane & ethane) come from on Titan (moon of Saturn)?

I suppose from all of the dinosaurs that used to roam Titan?
Organic compounds can be found interstellar nebulae - Dinosaurs?

Look at it another way. Which scenario is more likely:

1 - Life spontaneously generates out of constituent elements forming organic chemistry, THEN decomposes to form "Fossil Fuels"
OR
2 - "Fossil fuels" exist for a LONG time before life spontaneously generates out of a rich broth of complex organic chemicals

I am betting on #2 (and the evidence supports it)

Hydrocarbons and every other compound, molecule and element are derived from the same thing that comprises most of the Sun's mass - hydrogen. Technically everything is "solar powered", but more correctly, "hydrogen powered". But then again, energy and mass are interchangeable, so this argument is totally centered around each person's temporal reference.

It takes energy/matter to be able to harvest/transform more energy, to accomplish work. That's a fact - Newton was a smart guy.

Converting a 914 to electric is a great idea - if those batteries, electric motors, etc lifetimes outlast the amount of fossil which would be spent to achieve an equivalent amount of miles that the car is driven while under battery power. Which likely isn't enough to make up for that tradeoff.

I think you might be want to double check your ideas.

There are certainly hydrocarbons and organic carbon compounds spread throughout the universe. The Horse Head nebula, Jupiter, Saturn, Titan, etc. But that doesn't mean that they were all created by living creatures like dinosaurs. It just happens that hydrocarbons are somewhat messy and relatively easy to produce if conditions are correct. If you think if nebulae as huge chemical factories (they are), then it follows suit. Hydrocarbons are just random chains of hydrogen and carbon and don't even have to have a uniform structure. All that says is that they can be naturally occurring if the right conditions are met. On Earth, the petroleum is made from hydrocarbons made of compressed plant and animal life. Not just dinosaurs, but hundreds of millions of years of decayed plants, algae, insects, forests, microscopic life, ocean life, fish, plankton, cephalopods, trilobites, etc. It also just so happens that the period of time of most petroleum generation goes hand in hand with the decay timing of the Cambrian explosion. Since life on Earth began shortly after its forming, there's obviously great propensity for hydrocarbons to produce naturally here. The Earth never had oceans of methane like on Titan. So all it goes to show is that hydrocarbons are produced all over the damn place with a variety of different beginnings. Other heavy elements like gold or uranium are certainly not geologically produced, but rather in the fusion crucibles of the stars. But simple molecule chains like hydrocarbons don't need interstellar fusion to create them.

Just out of curiosity, where is it that you think Earth's petroleum came from?

Ummmm....I like how the charger is behind the front license plate.

Same place as Titan's hydrocarbons.
Dont know but its not (just) 'Dinosaurs', far more likely to have been plentiful in the proto-solar disk that formed our solar system.
My guess is that all planets in our solar system have at least "some" petroleum deposits.

Returning thread to OP now.

Hell yes. I'd love to do an electric 914. My neighbor Richard did a beautiful job doing an electric conversion on his baby blue Fastback. Complete with solar panels on his roof to charge it. It's glorious, as is this 914. The battery technology is getting better all the time and it will have to do until Mr. Fusion generators finally arrive. This 914 is just beautifully done.

What I've always found fascinating about using electric motors for propulsion is that you can keep with or stay ahead of trends for power. Batteries get better? Put in new batteries? Solar panels get cheap? Add solar to your house/work. California manages to get a huge solar plant working? Bonus! Do nothing!

Point being you can divest your energy source from your car. Granted right now it's expensive as hell and the ROI is low for most folks, but look at some of the leases available right now for the Ford Focus EV, Fiat 500 EV, and the Nissan Leaf. It's kinda insane how cheap they are! I think the only viable car for a primary vehicle that hit's all my check boxes is the Chevy Volt, but for a second car any of the aforementioned rides would really be neat.

I have decided that I want to run my car on hydrocarbons
From Titan.

I think you can arrange unlimited 'in-flight' refueling if you tap into a chonosynclasticinfundibulum.

I think you can arrange unlimited 'in-flight' refueling if you tap into a chonosynclasticinfundibulum.

The methane and ethane on Titan came from the organic life forms that used to live there 250,000,000 years ago.

Hmmm. A study was done. I wonder who financed that study? Who benefits most from the results of that study?

They just recently flew an solar powered airplane coast to coast and soon will try to circumnavigate with it. They are just scratching the surface with solar power. How would you like to charge you electric car with solar power? How do you think the oil companies feel about that?

I've considered someday converting my 914 to an EV. It always seemed so expensive... til I look back and see what I've spent in 4 years of ownership. Of course, now that I've invested quite a bit in the old internal combustion bits, so I'll want to drive it as-is.

I'd fill the engine compartment with batteries, perhaps a few more in the front trunk, and put a 75hp hub-mounted motor in each rear wheel. 150RWHP with instantaneous torque.

I wish that Tesla sold it's powertrains as standalone units......

I'd be happy with the whole Tesla!

I'm one of the applicants for the Mars-One project. If I advance and make friends with Elon Musk, I'll see what I can swing for you. Seriously. Unless I'm on Mars.

Where are we with hydrogen fuel cells anyway? Oh right. All of the damn hydrogen is on Jupiter. Earth is just getting more pedestrian all the time...

I sat and talked with Elon Musk for an hour for a job interview.
Very intelligent guy. I have worked on a few of the spacecraft currently (or past) exploring Mars. Would have worked on the Dragon Avionics, but declined the offer.

I got to see the Model S hiding in the back of the SpaceX plant before the design was released to the public.

Well, I've pestered this forum for a while with my electric 914. Tried a couple of different configurations, during this time, too. *IF* I were to start with the current configuration, I'd have added in roughly $20k worth of parts. Of course, I'm not paying for the electricity, since I have solar panels and can charge at work for free, so the payoff will happen in oh... (cough) mumble (cough) years.

To be honest, there is no way to compete with even the lame Leaf costwise. Of course, our cars are much more handsome than the Leaf and Pius, but that's not saying much.

I've got a box of batteries balanced over the motor (attached to the standard 914 transmission), and another box of batteries squeezed in where the gas tank used to be, and another box in the front trunk. All of the electronics are stuffed into the rear trunk.

Now that I know what to do, I'd reserve half the rear trunk for the electronics, and figure out a deeper box for the engine compartment.

Oh, and get 130Ah batteries.

Oh, and NOT buy a cheap chinese BLDC motor.

There is a electric powered 914 in a hangar here at the airport minus batteries. Maybe I can make him an offer? I'd at least like to have a good look at it.

Why not? If you could find out what motor and controller he has, then we can critique the price and worthiness of the project.

The 914 is a great platform for converting to electric - especially when there are two trunks and a huge engine compartment available for use.

r3dplanet,
http://www.redorbit.com/news/space/1112944...mill-meteorite/
"This discovery opens the door for further debate about whether the delivery of organic compounds produced in extraterrestrial environments to the early Earth by comets and meteorites might have aided the molecular evolution that preceded the origins of life."

Oil first, life second...., "fossil fuel" third


'Elliot, depends on: If you add batteries, is the system designed and built well? What motor and drive module does it have? How much $$?

Electricity is the future...?

I bought my 914 for an electric conversion, but change in job and reduced income means I've sidelined the conversion, but am still in rustoration mode w goals of lighter weight and upgraded performance.

Marin County has taken advantage of "new" CA law and has it's own "power company." We pay a little more for the Clean Green option which buys the power from sources "cleaner" than coal fired power plants. It's not perfect, but its an improvement.

I am considering a Leaf lease or purchase because the commuting expenses are so low! Gas prices aren't going down, ever. An investment in on-site solar would mean "closed-loop" on commuting power.

Right now, the 914 EV is a cool project, but not the ultimate solution. Keep the discussion going!
One area worth more discussion, and subject of my daydreams, is the 914 EV AX racer project. With direct drive on a stout differential a 914 EV could be VERY QUICK!

I met a guy that built an electric car that won it's class in the Pike's Peak hillclimb. It was VERY fast.
It was the 'Electric ER3' with Jeri Unser (Bobby Unser's daughter) at the wheel.
http://www.electrifyingtimes.com/pikes_peak_ER3.html

To do the direct drive, you'll need a good AC motor - DC motors won't give you the high RPM you want. If you can get a motor to do above 8K RPM, with sufficient torque, then you are golden. I suppose you could do a siamese motor project - put two AC75 together onto a transaxle - that might be interesting.

For outstanding performance, you'll need to roll your own battery pack, using pouches from A123 (or whoever they are called now). Or wait until the supercap / lithium hybrid batteries really go online.

The frame for the 914 is just fanstastic for conversions - you have 3 tubes to put wires into (the two heater tubes and the central tube). I put my high voltage on the passenger side (I don't like passengers much, can you tell ), and the control lines on the driver side. Lots of space for battery packs, and (mostly) dry compartments for the electronics.

Figure in the resistance loss from your fossil fuel plant and you will always find that the electric car is the bigger polluter. But, and this is very important, they do not besmirtch beautiful Marin county. Just some California nowhere that is the home of the power plant, nuke or coal. Now resistance braking makes energetic sense, but it is so complex.

Not always true.

I know two families that have electric cars and more than enough solar to charge the car.
So that is a truly zero emissions vehicle (as long as you charge it for 8 hours for every hour you drive....;-)

I know that is the exception rather than the norm, but it is getting better.

I'd love to have a solar panel to charge up an electric car, and believe that something like that may be a realistic project in the Southwest. In Chicago, I don't think we'd have enough solar available with cloudy days.

I keep hoping that advances in battery technology will make these cars viable in the future. In the meantime, I guess we just have to keep burning dinosaurs!

I've got solar panels on my house, so it basically costs me nothing to drive my car - other than replacing the tires and brake pads.

For those concerned about whether the electric cars are more polluting than gas cars, here is a report from the Union of Concerned Scientists (hard to find a more unbiased study): http://www.ucsusa.org/assets/documents/cle...ions-report.pdf

In a nutshell, if your region relies heavily upon coal, there is a rise in particulates. If you live in a region (such as the state of Washington), you get a reduction in pollution. Even so, a lot of coal plants are being changed over to natural gas, courtesy of the boom in fracking.

Oh, and just remember - you can get electricity from a lot of different sources, but only one source for gasoline.

r3dplanet - I'll just leave this here:

http://www.reach-unlimited.com/p/135244424...gical-in-nature

Four year old thread?