I finally installed a pair of relays in the front trunk to power the headlights ( I have the high power HLs ). Everything works except when I turn off the lights; when I push the switch in to turn off the lights, the bucket lowers properly but the lights stay on. If I toggle the high/low stalk, the lights go out. Same if I turn the ignition off.

I can post pics tomorrow and show how it's wired; I've tested all the wiring and its good. The only thing thats really different is that the relays are getting 12v whenever the ignition is on ??? I had run a 10 gauge wire back to the battery; and a 12 gauge ground too.

Any help will be appreciated.

You are getting power to the trigger portion of the headlight relays from the dimmer relay somehow.
Could be back feeding via a ground that will eventually melt.

In theory the dimmer switch relay should have no constant power unless the headlights are on.
In practice, it might...
So that dimmer relay may need to be replaced...

It should be sending trigger power from that relay to either the low or high beam relays you just put in.

Use a test light to see what is providing power, and when.

Look again...

That makes sense:
1. Would diodes in the trigger wires help ?

2. Why does switching the hi/low switch extinguish the lights after the switch is off ?

3. I'll recheck in am

That is why I would suspect the dimmer relay....seems it may be stuck or corroded inside....

It's all low amp trigger current, but it may be pulling the full power through that relay.

Remove the wires from the dimmer relay to the headlights.
Test those for power, cr on, low high etc...
Test with car off.

Then see what happens when you apply 12vdc to the same port on the new relays that the dimmer was wired into.
You may have hooked up the new relays wrong...and it may just be one of them, not both.

Rich

Is the dimmer relay attached to the fuse panel ? Never really messed with it before.

It should be fused, yes.
It's on the back...

I would look at your relay wiring first...

Here is how I think.

It never did this before
You changed something
Now it does this weird thing.
Go look at what you changed first, and see what you did wrong

Rich

In my way of thinking, you want the relays to be operated by the white and yellow wires that normally would go to the headlights. . then the larger wires from the battery are passed thru the relays and that is what goes on to the lights. . this way everything works
as before with no changes to the headlight switch or the dinner switch. .

It's still dark out, but I'll take a pic of my set up and do some tests before replying again. One thing I saw in a diagram that I used that has caught my attention: should the ground wire from each headlight bulb connector be grounded to the relays ground ? Currently, I grounded the relay grounds ( 85 ) to the 12 AU wire at the amp.

Yes, the hi/low beam switch will toggle between the high and low beams correctly, just like before. I'll report back later this am

If the ground is good, it will not matter where the 4 points are connected. Based on this schematic, the factory white & yellow wires will connect at the bottom left input wires. There should be no power on the white & yellow when the switch is turned off.

Now here's where it gets tricky. DC amperage will flow between 2 points if one of them is "more" negative. You can possibly be triggering the relays from the "OFF" circuit if there is potential voltage that is more than ZERO (ground). This can be caused by carbon or dust inside the switch.

You may be able to solve this issue with a diode in line with the relay trigger wire. But you should check for voltage on the white & yellow wires first. If you have voltage on these wires when the switch if off, figure out why.

Power to the headlight circuit comes from the HI/LO relay via the switch. It then goes through the fuse panel and out to the lights.

Where do the wires go which are labeled "To existing harness".

Each of those 2 wires should go to the original Hi beam and Lo beam light wires.

You should have picked the left or right headlight wires.

The relay coils should be connected where the headlight filaments were.

In general, you want to replace the headlight filaments with the relay coils. The relay then provides the power.

If you have them connected like this and it still doesn't work right, you may have to put a load on each headlight wire. Like a resistor to ground.

The existing harness would be the 2 white high beam wires and 2 yellow low beam wires coming from the fuse panel ( 1,2,3,4 ) to the lights. I joined the two whites and two yellows and connected them to the 85 terminals of their respective relays.The whites an yellows exit the relays at 87.

Just a WAG if you have fog lamps, you must remove the white/blue wire from #9
fuse and put it to ground. The fog lamp relay uses the low resistance ground from
the low beam (when off) to operate. if its not change it will operate the low beam
relay.

It was not necessary to connect both whites and yellows together. Now you've paralleled their 2 fuses for twice the current capability which is not needed. No need to use one; it's just that you could have used one of each.

Question: Do the lights stay on if turned off with lo beams or hi beams on?

Also when you turn them off, measure the voltage at the terminals of the coils (85 to 86).

There should be no voltage supply to the lights when the switch is turned off. You may need to parallel the relay coils with a low resistance resistor to pull them off.

Jim,
You say the relays are grounded to the 12 AU wire at the amp. Is this the same as chassis ground? The lights and relays should all be tied as close to battery negative as possible ( should be same as chassis ground ). Measure with your voltmeter from that 12 AU to ground to see if there is voltage there when the lights should be off, but are still on. If so, ground the relays at the same place as the headlight grounds.
Tom

Jim,
Just remembered something. Did you put in a J-west fog light flasher circuit? This could be causing this?
Do the headlights come on as soon as you turn the key switch to on, or only after turning on the headlights and then turning them off do they stay on. Also, do they do this if on high beam and turn off as well as low beam and turn off.
Tom

I did a series of tests. To answer some of the questions above:
1. Yes the headlights stay on if turned off on hi or low beam. When I toggle the hi/low switch on the column, they will go out
2. I unconnected the relays and put the wires back as they were originally, the lights go off fine, no problem.
3. I tested the relays and double checked the wiring, all is correct and tests out
4. Tried grounding the relay grounds at the headlights, no difference
5. When light switch is in the off position and the lights are still on, I am getting voltage through the trigger wires. If I ground that wire with a test light, the light goes off.

Below are pictures of my set up. The terminal and relays on the left are for the HL; the two smaller relays on the right are for dual beam fog lamps. They work independenately of the HLs

The yellow and white wires coming from the fire wall are the low and high beams. The relays lost the color coding ( white/yellow), but I tested the circuits to verify they are not mixed up.

Below is a pic showing the relays disconnected. The lights go off when the switch is off

Pic of the relays I'm using: 40 amp

Good feedback. How much voltage are you measuring? This is important. You may need to increase the load (like you did with the test light) with a resistor across the coil. The best thing seems to be to lower the resistance of the coils to pull those wires to ground.

Your test light lowered the resistance of the coil and caused the correct turn off. Same thing happens when you click the H/L beam stalk as the coil for the H/L beam goes across the still activated coil. I'm not sure where the path is that allows some current to flow through the coils but it seems to be there.

The 10 gauge red wire on the left comes from the battery, the black 10 gauge next to the red goes to chassis ground.

I haven't got into the fuse panel. I'm thinking that the light will be turned off by toggeling the hi/low switch after pushing the light switch in.....

I do not have a J-West flasher fog light flasher, but many years ago I installed something like his. The fogs are seperate from the HLs
The HLs only come on when the switch is pulled all the way back. They come on normally.
They do this on high beam and low beam; however, if I toggle the switch after pushing the switch in the lights go off.....

1. Where should I measure the voltage: red wire on left, trigger wire at relay, or the wire going to the lights ( 87 )
2. Should I measure it with lights fully on of after I push the switch in.
3. When I tested earlier I found that there was current coming through the trigger wires after the switch was off

I'll go back and test these.

Measure across the coil (85, 86) when in the error mode (light switch off but lights on). When lights are on, this should be 12V. When lights are off it should be 0V but I'm guessing you'll see 6-8V from some leakage path.

Got it.....heading back to the garage

Measurements:

1. Engine running, voltage between 85 and 86 = 12.5 volts

2. Main HL switch pushed in 1/2 way; HLs are on voltage between 85 and 86 =0,
and the voltage between the ground (85) and output ( 87 ) = 12.3 volts

3.

This may be the back feed making the light stay on.

I'll check this tomorrow morning and report back; went for a test drive and wondered whether the fog-light-flasher might have effect since pulling the turn signal stalk both flashes the fogs and will turn off the HLs when the dash switch is either on driving lights or off--after being ON.

And I'll check the dimmer relay tomorrow as well. I'm also going to experiment using a couple of regular 4 prong relays to see if there is a difference.

Thanks for the guidance and suggestions everyone..

I love these "elec problem" threads when the elec guru's attack them. Totally confused and amazed by some of this. I thought I was hot shit when I learned about flame rectification but this is way over my head, Nice wiring job, Jim.

Try this:

Pull the wire off the relay terminal 86. does the relay de-energize?

Yes- what is the voltage on that wire? Which wire is it?

No- Does the light turn off? Yes/No If yes, check wiring.

Will do, 86 could be the ground or the trigger wire. I assume you mean the trigger wire.
And, should th test be done with lights ON with the dash switch pulled out, or pushed in but the HLs still on ?

Tomorrow m

Will do, 86 could be the ground or the trigger wire. I assume you mean the trigger wire.
And, should th test be done with lights ON with the dash switch pulled out, or pushed in but the HLs still on ?

Tomorrow m

Light switch off, light still on.

re:pm. just enuf light. these are them jim.

k

This does not make any sense. The voltage on the coil is 0V and the relay contacts are still active. Measure the voltage on both coils when you do this test.

The statement above conflicts with your previous finding:



Not sure what's going on with this setup. We can fix it, it just might take some experimenting. This isn't rocket science.

Try stuff in this condition:
1) If it is zero volts, touch your test light across 85-86.
2) pull the wire on 86 as recommended.

BTW, your wiring looks good. I like the use of a terminal strip. Remember when you are done to affix some type of plastic cover so some metal doesn't accidentally cause a short.

Also, you can use the screws securing the relays to provide chassis ground.

Click to view attachment

Thanks Kevin. looks good.

I'll get back to testing later this am and report back. I'm also going to test a different pair of relays even though they work in a standard bench test with a nine volt battery. Yesterday, my multimeter showed showed continuity between 30 ( 12v in) and 87 ( 12v out ) and this was with the lights off ??? That is kinda weird, thats why I will try a different pair of relays.

And, I was looking at the wire diagram for the white/blue wire at fuse #9, I only found that wire on fuse #1 ( typo ? )

Drove the car last night with lights on as well as fogs. No issues, voltmeter read a nominal 12.5 volts with both on--I don't rely on the voltmeter, but it was not out of the normal night driving range.

I bought the terminal strip at West Marine, they come in different lengths as well as a nifty plastic box/cover ( thats extra ). I'll put that on after the problem is mitigated and I get the loom back in order and covered.

Jim,
You answered all of my questions and therefore I can say with some degree of sureness that the relays are "latching" for the reason there is a small voltage getting to the trigger wires. It is not enough to cause the relay to energize initially, but is enough to hold it in the energized position once it has closed. This has to come from above/before ( on the prints) the J relay, which is listed as the dimmer relay but has to be the select high or low beam toggle relay. Above/before the J relay is the headlight switch. The reason the relay drops out when you toggle it is because it loses its power when switching from high to low or low to high or when you turn off the key switch.
Relays usually latch in the neighbor hood of 7-9 volts upon initial activation, but will hold closed for a much lower voltage. You found one solution to your problem with the test light. If you measure the ohmic value of the test light and substitute a light with similar readings between the trigger wires to ground, the relay will most likely drop out when you push the headlight switch to off. A 150 ohm, 2 watt resistor would probably do as well. I am guessing that the headlight switch is dirty inside and a small voltage is "leaking" thru to the headlight high/low selector relay.
Tom

I'll do a voltage test on the trigger wires after turning off the HL switch....

OK Here is what I found out:

1. When the light switch is in the off position-after being on- I removed the trigger wire. There was 3-5 volts coming in after disconnecting. If I ground the trigger wire, the lights go out

2. If I remove the fog light fuse, the HLs will go off as they should.

3. I pulled the fuse panel down to see how the fog-light -flasher was wired, but decided to put that off. There was 2 or 3 pieces added that make little or no sense to me . I'll pull it down next week and make a sketch

Ah ha! Now we is getting somewhere. It could be that the fog light flasher activation circuit has developed an issue over time that is just now showing up. I don't remember if my J-West flasher came with an internal schematic. If so, I have misplaced it or I could look on it to see what may have caused this.
Anyone have a schematic for that flasher unit?
Tom

Jim read my post about fog lights.

I'd like to see it, my current flasher was cobbled together 20 years ago at a local shop. I'm thinking of replacing it with a J West unit, but would like to see a schematic first.

At least we know whats involved with the HL issue; and I can turn them completely off by toggling the Hi/Low switch.

I saw the white / blue wire. I had been disconnected from the fuse panel and attached to a square gizmo that grounds on the fuse panel. The gizmo has 2 other wires entering it as well. I think it's wired into an added relay fo the fog-flasher circuit.

I'm going tackle that next week...

Heres a quick diagram on whats happen.

Orignal circuit

GRD--High beam bulb--+---light switch
................................. |
................................. |
................................. + -----fog lamp relay --12v
From above fog lamps will only work with high beams off.

Your circuit

GRD---High beam relay----+------light switch
. ...................................|
....................................|
....................................+-----fog light relay--12v

Trouble is there's a current path to keep High beam relay and Low beam relay operated after the High beams are operated.

I'm thinking of replacing the old fog light flash parts with a J West module. Thanks everyone for the help, we found out the headlight relay installation is correct and I'll finish that wiring and secure the loom.

rip is all out and go back to stock...
How dare you consider bright lights a requirement.....geez

Buy a flashlight at walmart and tape it to your mirror, that will help with the stock lighting.