got a couple issues I could use some advice on. 2316cc with weber 44's

1: CHT i gave a micro1000 CHT gauge.. its not reading anything.. i have it under #3 cylinder and its connected to the extension line and heat shrinked and on the gauge its red to + and purple to - . this is the only way it will go as one is a male and the other is a female connector.

2: carbs are running lop sided. right bank is pulling about 5 and the left side is pulling 12-14. this is with the idle speed screws backed right off. Any adjustments on the right banks mixture screws do pretty well nothing until closed and then is sputters a bit. Adjusting the mixture screws on the left side start making changes to the idle and sound of th engine immediately..

3: voltage gauge is not reading anything but the idiot light does go out once the motor is running

4: fuel gauge and the temp gauge ( in combo gauge) are both pegged.. I think this is most likely ground. i'll check that in a min. I only put a couple gallons of gas in the tank.


side note.. once motor was warmed up doing cam break in the oil pressure was steady at a hair over 20psi andi only have one small drip of oil on one valve cover, which i'll look at when i do a valve adjustment.

First, most important part - oil pressure. What rpm was the 20 PSI at, and what rpm did you hold the car at during break in?

I'll only offer thoughts on the carbs, as that's what I'm most familiar with. What you're describing is that they are not synched properly. What kind of linkage are you running? You'll need to adjust them so both sides are pulling roughly the same numbers. The mixture screws won't have the right effect and you won't adjust them until the carbs are synched left to right. If one is pulling more, than that side of the engine is doing more work.

This is a coarse adjustment to get your engine fully broken in. You won't tune till it's broken in and the valves are readjusted.

just over 20psi at just over 2000 rpm where I was breaking in the cam. It was closer to 40psi when i first started it up and as the motor warmed up the pressure dropped to just over 20 at a steady2000-2200 rpm.

I have not re adjusted the valves yet as the motor is still hot..i'll be adjusting them and changing the oil tomorrow.


as for the sync thats the problem i'm having. i'm getting the out of sync at idle.
I have the tangerine racing cable throttle setup. at idle i have the cables just a hair loose and both carb actuate at exactly the same time. at idle i've backed off the idle speed screws to 1\2 a turn in from touching.

I have the same issue. Do you have the older style Webers without the circular throttle return spring attached to the throttle shaft on each carb?

I have spoken with Chris before and it seems that some carbs (I think the older/early Webers) do not have enough tension on them to pull the "slave" carb's throttle plates back closed. If you manually rotate the pulley on the slave carb, you can get them to close better, and the idle should drop as well.

Chris recommends a shorter/stronger return spring on that slave carb to pull the plates closed. I shortened mine significantly and I still have the same issue, so my solution will be to fabricate a bracket which holds an additional spring on the outside of the carb to help pull the plates closed. My car is with a friend at the moment getting some cage work done, but when I get it back, I'll post pictures of whatever I end up making.

I believe I have early italian webers.. Theres only one circular spring on the master carb.

I had to modify the throttle pulley on the slave side a bit to get the return spring on the left carb. Had to drill a hole for the return spring. The carb seams to be returning back to close just fine.

Actually I made sure both carbs were closed and the idle screws backed off and the left side was still reading high.

Mike,

I have the same gauge and had the same problem. I know theres only one way to plug those wires into the back of the gauge, but when I switched the wires to the opposite terminals on the gauge, I got a reading. Just use alligator clips to check first before you cut the wires.

BTW, awesome job! We will have to go for a cruise before the snow comes, maybe even get a few other canucks to ride also.

Pete.

On the carbs, there are more qualified experts like George, but be sure you do not have any lose bolts on the manifolds. I had something similar and resolved it by tightening a few bolts. Check very aggressively for any vacuum leaks.

Next is make sure your carbs are clean. I knew my were clean but they were not performing correctly. So I took them apart many times to clean before they were actually clean.

Make sure you air bypass screws are fully closed. Verify that the butterfly valve plate in the carb that is pulling high is closing completely. I did not see if you recently rebuilt but if you removed the butterfly valves from the stem, make sure you put them in correctly. There was a thread where someone did that recently and it caused a lot of problems.

I did not get a chance today to get to work on the valve adjustment.. I had to get the interior in and get the car to its safety inspection. I am hoping I'll get the back end up in the air and get to work on that this weekend.. I'm sure the carb was closing all the way but I'll be going through the startup tuning all over again once I get the valves adjusted..
Thanks for pointing out the manifold bolts.. I'll add that to the list to double check.

I havent rebuilt them myself. I know they came off a running engine (i'm sure of this), but I wanted to get the car up and running before I try taking them apart.

Pete: I'll give that a try.. maybe someone made a mistake with which wire colour got which connector... Thanks for the heads up
Maybe I will get to drive this ol' gal soon.. :-)

Ok... got the valves adjusted after break in..
couple of them were a bit loose, but not too bad.

Fired it back up and it was still not sounding right.

I pulled all the spark plugs and #3 and 4 were fouled. Most likely because of the carb that flooded. So I cleaned them all up and put them back in. Checked the gap and they're still all at .028"

Now the motor is sounding much better and not stumbling as much. Better, but still not quite right.

I set the timing. 3500rpm and timing set at 27 deg

set the carbs back to initial settings.. Cable linkage loosened right off and idle speed screws backed off, mixture screws out one turn from seated. Air bleed screws out one half. Ran like a tractor so I opened up the mixture screws another half turn and that smoothed it out.
Car idles just about 1000rpm according to the timing light tac.

All this sounds good, except......

3/4 cylinder is reading 5 on the snail gauge
1/2 is reading about 12 on the snail gauge.

it still sounds a bit lumpy like a harley. Once in a while get a little sound kinda like a misfire but its quick and gone.

If I put my hand over the velocity stacks on 1/2 and i can stumble out and kill the motor. Put my hand over 3/4 and it will give a little back fire and maybe a little smoke and not much else.

I'm not sure what to do to try an get the carbs to run at the same number on the snail gauge... any pointers. ?? I know that was a bit of a ramble, but I wanted to give all the info I could. :-)

Also, what sort of numbers should I be seeing on the snail gauge??

Pete: I think you're right.. switched the number and the gauge bumped up to 225 F.

George:. The carbs DO have a spring on each carb.. they're just on different sides of the carb. The right carb has the return spring on but the throttle linkage and the left carb has it at the front of the carb.

Hmm. So you're saying that you're seeing those readings on the synchrometer when the linkage is completely loose/basically disconnected? At 1,000 rpms, you shouldn't see anything over 5-6 on the gauge.

What you're describing still sounds like a synchronization issue. I'm trying to visualize this, so forgive me if I'm way off here (honestly Chris is probably the guy to ask, not me), but if the 3/4 plugs are fouling and it is consistently running a few numbers lower than the 1/2 carb, then what I think is happening is the 1/2 carb is "carrying" the engine. The 3/4 throttle plate is more closed than the 1/2 carb, and raw fuel is being drawn into the cylinders without enough air, which also explains the reading. Right now, 1 and 2 are doing all the work, and 3 and 4 are still searching for the right air/fuel ratio to jump in and help.

If I were you, I would take another look at what is happening with the linkage. Visually, how do both of the throttle stops look at idle/closed position. As you rotate the master carb, how does the slave carb look? Is it visually keeping up with the other? Do this with the engine off. Keep in mind that very, very small adjustments can make a big effect on the overall synch of the carbs.

As I said, I have a similar issue with my car, and I have not quite ever got it completely figured out. For the time being I just synched them at the RPM where I feel the car gets the most use - about 3,000. But that's a bandaid and not a solution.

Again, I appreciate the kind words that some have said regarding my still growing knowledge of carbs, but I'm really not the expert. However, I love to troubleshoot, so if you have any more questions, shoot me a PM and maybe we can talk this through over the phone?

Hmmm. You know what. Maybe I'm going about this the wrong way. Any adjustments that I've made trying to get this gong have been the same adjustment to all 4 barrels of the carbs. Maybe I should start thinking of this one cylinder ( or even one bank of carbs) at a time. I ran the motor up to 3500rpm to set the timing at 27 deg and the motor sounded pretty good. My wife said she heard the odd sputter but that could be because I still had the linkage loosened up. What I will try tomorrow is...
Unbolt the barrel nut for the linkage cable on the slave side. Get it out of the way and just deal with the idle. Then try adjusting the air bleed screws on the 1/2 side to see of the suction drops (at idle). Then, Perhaps screw in the idle stop screw on 3/4 side to open up that side a bit and see if I can sync is that way. See how it runs

Your hypothesis that 1/2 are pulling 3/4 along for the ride makes sense and it could just be pulling in fuel but no ( or little ) air on 3/4. Hense fouling plugs.


I'm going to sleep on this. Anyone else want to chime in a thought please feel free.

Cheers

I'm not much of a carb guy, but I'm seeing several things that are saying "vacuum leak" to me.

Double-check that one side. And then triple-check it. Because I'm sure you've got at least one leak there somewhere.

--DD

My first guess.
I've never used the Tangerine linkage, so though I have a good idea I don't really know how it works. I usually toss the hexbar linkage and build my own center pull much like CSP sells. On higher end jobs and my own cars I've built linkages since the 90's. It's quite a job to have perfect sync and I use better quality balljoints (linkage ends).
Most coughing through the carb , unbalance, is sync issues.

Number two Get rebuild kits and clean those freakin' things, all it takes is a hair of lint to fuck with your head.

Number three is a vacuum leak

Number four is jetting, do you have a wideband O2 meter on that puppy?
If not I'll shoot my set-up over to you, no charge but you cover shipping both ways and you know you are responsible for damage. It has a brand new lambda.

Number 5 is check the fuel enrichment circuit , it's the lever thingy on the side of the carb (it may now have a block off plate), there are two plungers inside and they must be seated all the way down. In the past I have tapped them for a grub screw and permanently disabled them.

BTW rule of thumb hot engine 10psi per 1000rpm is good.

Mike I'm home if you want to call me, but my computer is shut off for the rest of the day.

I've got thangs to git'er done.

I thinks I'm good for pressure.. it was reading high ( 40-50) just when it was cold ( i changed the oil yesterday when I adjusted the valves). Once it warmed up it was about 15 ish at idle. Now mind you I wasn't checking the pressure gauge that often as I couldn't see it from the engine bay.. How do I go about checking for a vacuum leak?? Obvious guess for me would be to just go around each carb and make sure all screws ( other than the mixture and air bypass) are snug and I don't feel any leaks.

first thing I'll do it completely disconnect the linkage to rule that out.

I was hoping Id get to go for a drive around the block or so with it before putting her away for the winter and I was going to rebuild the carbs then... that may not be possible. :-)

I appreciate the offer for the sideband.. I will take you up on that. But I think i should wait until I get thing stabalized before I start changing jets shouldn't I ??

Lots of good stuff from Dave and Mark. Checking for a vacuum leak is easy, but be careful. The easiest/cheapest is to start the car, then slowly spray carb cleaner around any of the junctions, from intake-head and from carb-intake. If the idle changes at all, you have a leak. This would be done ideally with the linkage disconnected.

Mark is right, if the carbs are not rebuilt, you could be opening yourself up for additional headaches. However, the reason why I still feel it's synch-related has to do with your guage readings. Physics/mechanics dictates that if one side of the engine is pulling 12-14 "units" of air through it (those don't stand for CFM, by the way) that the other side of the engine should want basically the same thing. However, if the throttle plate on that side is closed, or closed more, it's not physically possible to pull the same amount of air through the carb. The bottom half of the carb is still working, providing fuel and that ultra-rich fouling that you observed. But the same amount of air isn't entering.

OR, you have a massive vacuum leak on the 3/4 carb, which would cause the numbers to be lower, BUT the plugs wouldn't foul - if anything that side would be super lean.

Mark is closest, and one of the guys I learned a lot from reading here, so I'm sure he'll help you get this figured out.

I use a squirt gun with water in it to check for vacuum leaks. I squirt it at the spots that I suspect of leaking. If it is leaking the water will change the way the car is idling. The reason I use water is it is not flammable and when it get sucked into the leak it just plugs it momentarily.

Just to add a bit more info.. I'm out in the garage right now...
I decided to check the compression to "just make sure" nothing else is going on numbers were...

1- 145
2- 150
3 - 150
4 - 150

this makes me happy :-)



Also.. the intake manifolds nuts are 5ft/lbs right ?? That's not a lot...

GOT IT !!!! Video to follow after turkey dinner. Purrs like a kitten. Until I hit the throttle the. It growls. This tangerine racing exhaust I got sounds amazing. :-).

Took her for a drive around the block and to the gas station...got some videos but they are really dark.. on account of its 10pm now.. I'll take some more video in the morning ! :-)

Doin the happy dance now.. Still needs a bit of a tune n the lambda sensor on it but its running pretty good.

It was the carb syncing... I'm sure I had the cable to the slave carb loose, but ..... .... whatever the left side wasn't closing fully.. It is now and that was the issue... Car still needs a bit of tuning. It smells rich, but its a good starting point. Thanks Mark, George, and everyone else..