So I have the car up in the air dealing with the oil as usual, and I happen to lean on the inside of one of the rear tires and I hear a sucking sound as the control arm moves about a 1/8th inch...hmmm...check both the large nuts and they are both tight as they should be.

DAMN...it seems that the inside bushings on BOTH control arms have failed. They both move about 1/8th inch

Now, I know these wern't the best solution, but I expected them to last more than 4000miles...I do have a pretty agressive alignment -2* camber and 0 toe in the rear, but I am still on street tires, and almost all the driving I have done has been on the street maybe 3 autox's...

I grooved the bushings for grease on the inside, and I reamed them out so that they would fit snugly but not have to be pressed on...and I also checked to be sure that I shaved the outer edge down so I wouldn't get the wallow effect I have seen posted here so many times...however, it seems that none of this mattered because its been maybe 4K street miles and I now have the neato active toe...

Sooooo...I know the real answer is to go to the muller bearings, but in the case that I can't get that kinda scratch together, did I do something wrong in the prep of these bushings, or do they just not last more than 4k miles?

It seems like the inside of the bushing has been wallowed out, so that the control arm is moving around the center rod, the rod doesn't seem to be moving, but I know that is a dangerous assumption. I also find it strange that both sides have failed in the same way, at the same time...I guess I was consistant in whatever I did wrong

Any thoughts, comments welcome...

Tony

There's an intermediate product between plain poly bushings and Mueller's bearings, made by Elephant Racing. It's a bronze bushing with a grease fitting, wrapped by a poly shell so it can still be installed in the never perfectly round stock control arm tube. I have no data on how well it works, but they are easier to install and cheaper than Mueller's parts. If you can afford them (and the installation), Mueller's stuff will certainly be longer lasting and will ultimately work better than the Elephant parts.

I thought the elephant products were only for the front though? Didn't know they had a rear solution...however, I think they are only about a 100bucks cheaper, if I am gonna spend 300, might as well spend 400 and get the good stuff

QUOTE (cha914 @ Dec 20 2004, 01:42 PM)

I thought the elephant products were only for the front though? Didn't know they had a rear solution...however, I think they are only about a 100bucks cheaper, if I am gonna spend 300, might as well spend 400 and get the good stuff

Yea, Chuck now has something for the rear, have not seen them, but I'd imagine that they work just fine....now back to your problem...


are you sure that the thru hole for the 14mm threaded portion of the shaft is not oblong??

Ayup, I posted some pics a while back showing plastic deformation of poly graphite rear bushings a while back.
As far as I'm concerned, cutting lube grooves just makes it worse......more room for the material to flow. Mine were in there for 2-3 years with no grooves...but still toast.

Muller bearing= end of problem. Dunno the longevity of them, tho.

What about the original bushings are they still available. At least they last for quite a long time.

QUOTE

are you sure that the thru hole for the 14mm threaded portion of the shaft is not oblong??

As of a year ago they were not oblong...and right now its definately the bushing that is moving not the center rod...I have been dreading pulling off that nut to see if the hole is now oblong...I hope I have caught this early enough, i am sure if I let it go, it would make the hole oblong.

QUOTE

Ayup, I posted some pics a while back showing plastic deformation of poly graphite rear bushings a while back. As far as I'm concerned, cutting lube grooves just makes it worse......more room for the material to flow. Mine were in there for 2-3 years with no grooves...but still toast.

I guess thats what happened, the grooves just sped the process, I will know for sure once I pull the things back apart

You said yours lasted 2-3 years, but if you didn't grove them were you having the standard "stiction" issues?

QUOTE

Muller bearing= end of problem. Dunno the longevity of them, tho.

I eventually want to run full muller bearings, but I need to actually get some use outa the current setup before I go drop another 800 bucks on it, right now the next 400 bucks is going into tires, or I will never get this car on a track and might as well sell the damn thing...

QUOTE (iamchappy @ Dec 20 2004, 01:10 PM)

What about the original bushings are they still available. At least they last for quite a long time.

Yeah, they are still available from time to time. The problem is, you have to buy a whole new trailing arm to get 'em! They're vulcanized to the inside of the trailing arm pivot, and not available separately. (Nor would they work correctly IMHO if they were available separately.)

--DD

QUOTE (cha914 @ Dec 20 2004, 01:11 PM)

You said yours lasted 2-3 years, but if you didn't grove them were you having the standard "stiction" issues?

Well, no. When the things oblong .03/.04 they move real easy.......sitll make them gawdawful noises, tho.

Here's a pic. Note the squeeze out.

Those are purdy...can't wait to see what mine look like...

JP - When you installed yours did you fit them or just press and go? Seems like the fit will take care of itself given enough time...

What if I went with the opposite route, and pressed the bushings onto the center shaft, then milled down the outside so it was a decent fit and put the lube on the outside of the bushings?

I am probably thinking too hard...just need to give in and empty my wallet...

Muller, you running any christmas specials

Man I didn't need to read this post at all.

I just finished putting poly bushings in the rear of my car. Went in fairly smooth had to put the nut on and tighten them down to get the last 3/8 inch to seat.

Running about the same camber and toe settings in the rear. Kumho V700's Ecsta on Fuchs.

Rubber bushings would not allow zero toe. they were kinda collapsed. Man burning them out sure sucked.

Yeah, I wonder how much faster they would wear with sticky rubber...or maybe I just screwed up and put too much of a grove in them when I installed them...either way, paying the extra 340 dollars for muller bearings is very tempting...

So, who has been running the muller bearings the longest? How have they lasted? Maintaince?

ugh...

Tony

QUOTE

Rubber bushings would not allow zero toe. they were kinda collapsed. Man burning them out sure sucked.

hey, i've been playing with fire for a long time...this isn't so bad

David

I guess that would have made it easier to take the trailing arms off the car 1st. I had a fire extinguisher at arms reach and a pan of water for the burning rubber bits to fall into.

If I'm not doing it the hard way I'm just not happy.

Chris Foley from Tangerineracing (CFR) also has a solution for the Rear Bushings.

LooK_Here

Another thing to worry over.
As I interpret THE BOOK, Meuller bearings are illegal in the SCCA Street Prepared classes(not that you're likely to get protested locally).
The plastic jobbies are legal and will prolly be OK for a season or so.

I've had Meuller front bearings for 2 seasons and the rears for one. I don't put much mileage on my car.....maybe 1K in the last 2 years.

QUOTE (Dave-O @ Dec 20 2004, 10:39 PM)

QUOTE Rubber bushings would not allow zero toe. they were kinda collapsed. Man burning them out sure sucked. hey, i've been playing with fire for a long time...this isn't so bad David

a $45 press from Harbor Freight gets the axle and bushing out in about 3 minutes...with no fumes

We've had these installed in a few cars for a few years with no problems...unfortentely, I cannot give you an honest miles used, I do know that one set is installed on a heavily used street/track original /6 with a 3.0 and when Jeroen was here last year, the parts had been inspected with no signs of wear....

The rear bearings are sealed with an O-ring...for the fronts, liberal use of rtv on the front carrier works...Qarl fitted a large shrink tubing piece on the rear carrier for the front bearings which should work great....this is untested since his car is still in pieces

QUOTE (J P Stein @ Dec 21 2004, 11:01 AM)

Another thing to worry over. As I interpret THE BOOK, Meuller bearings are illegal in the SCCA Street Prepared classes(not that you're likely to get protested locally). The plastic jobbies are legal and will prolly be OK for a season or so. I've had Meuller front bearings for 2 seasons and the rears for one. I don't put much mileage on my car.....maybe 1K in the last 2 years.

Crap. Good thing you said something. Thats all I need is some other minor reason to get kicked up another class. SM-2 is bad enough.
Now as far the "stripper" is concerned I have been listening to a Mustang buddy that assures me 400 HP from a 302. The lightest of the V-8 engines. This will definately be a prepared class car. Save me some of them bearings for next year..

about those Meuller bearings, What does it do to the ride? Is it appropriate for a street car (V8)? More road noise? Just wondering...

Eric
'75 2.0 Renegaded 327 SBC

Eric,

I'm not busting your ass directly.. we get these question A LOT.

QUOTE

What does it do to the ride?

The car will ride better. Why would it effect the ride ?

QUOTE

Is it appropriate for a street car (V8)?

It will ride smoother....

QUOTE

More road noise?

No. The shocks actually have a easy time of working with the suspension. This means they dampen the bumps and not the "stick" in the suspension.

I truelly dont understand why people think the ride *might* change. All it can do is get better as you allow the shocks and springs to work without fighting the plastic bushings or stock worn out rubber.

Others have posted that Muellers bearings will wear quicker... BULLSHIT. They are designed for high speed machines that run 24/7. I pulled them out after 3 years of ABUSE... they looked new. The only change I made was to boat trailer wheel bearing grease so I didnt have to worry about water washing the lube out.

Constantly people ask for "zirk" fittings so they can grease them... BULLSHIT. Your lower control arm balljoints dont have zirk fittings and never had them. Your front and rear wheel bearings dont have zirk fittings..... why do these need fittings ?

Scott @ Renegade installed a set into a customers car with a 400+hp small block...the owner "thinks" he can hear the suspension....Scott thinks this is highly unlikely with all of the extra harmonics his powerplant....I too think the owner is incorrect....it is possible that he was told by a friend or co-worker that they would be loud and now it's stuck in his head


also , as shown on another bushing manufactures website, yes, roller bearing are designed for 360° operation, however, due to the size of the these bearings and the light loads, they are fine.....I'll have to find my notes, but I'm 90% sure that the static load these bearings can take is 12,000 pounds(front units)....when they are turning the load limit is even higher.....car weighs 2000 pounds, pulls a max of 1.0g...shocks and springs bear most of the force...

It makes sense to me that a hinge with bearings would be smoother and quieter. Do the bearings make the mount alignment more critical, at least on the front? The rears shouldn't have that issue. The rears are a more current topic for me, since it started driving again (after 13 years) it feels a little loose in the rear chassis on smooth asphalt. Just a little, and it could be entirely in my head. How do I check the bushings (presumably stock) without major disassembly?

With all of the stuff that I'm finding out about on this board, my car's list is getting longer than before I got it running again...

Thanks for all the help guys

I recently installed Elephant bushings on the front and rear control arms on my car. They seem to be a well-made product. Easy to install and they certainly make the control arms move smoothly - no sticking or binding like the plastic bushings. Don't know how long they will last.

Steve