Researching a FI system for a buddies late model 930, not much more than a low mile stock 3.4 engine with cams and a bit beefier snail.

I have another bud with a totally gonzo 930 with SDS, that car is a rocket (450+hp, extreme heads, paulter rods...etc.) and the SDS runs flawless on it, so SDS is in the running......But this guy has a clewette/electomotive crankfire (missing tooth) dual plug coilpack system already, so MS is a definite candidate as well.

So what would be the best system that uses (ties into) the existing ignition?
I can solder or would a finished system (like MS3 pro) be better?

I know many of you have gone this route so I'm hoping to pick some brains.

I got MSIII.

ms3 or microsquirt

MicroSquirt won't handle ignition on a six if he ever wants to go there.

Im old school running a 86 Ruf CIS euro 930 fuel head, twin plug, msd ignition, with extra fuel enrichment via a 7th injector run off an rpm module. Not rocket science but works surprisingly well.

Getting into an EFI system costs $ and takes time to dial in but is the ultimate solution, electromotive or any of the new ignition systems are good.

I believe that's close to what he's running now except he's using the electromotive cranktrigger and their GM style coilpacks.

Must run the existing electromotive set-up or some type of crankfire, definitely wants to be able to retard ignition, etc. under boost.

So what I'm reading is the build time on an ECU is about a day?


So before I start making up a list is this all I need for the MS3 ECU?

http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/megasqu...case-p-419.html

It describing this as a "daughter board" so is there also a "mother board" I need to buy?
This confusion of too many options is one of the only things that's kept me away from MS

I see the expander board as well and I know there's a list of other bits needed, that's not what I'm talking about right now.
Just the complete ECU then I'll post a complete other parts list.

Thanks

Same deal for me. I've been to the MS web site a number of times and started to read all the stuff. By the time I was 5 minutes in I was staring at my computer like a deer in the headlights trying to figure out what I was supposed to build or buy....

Someone should do a post with like what they purchased, how much it cost and how much time it took to build it or is there s generic ready built one out there. I want to run ITB's that I am building manifolds for.

I hear ya Rick, I'm not asking peeps to do my homework for me, just a quick low down on what MS parts are needed, tools needed, time involved (trigger and intake fab is already done), etc.
Just a ballpark on some of the stuff.

I've done several SDS installs so I'm not a total newbie and I do know my way around FI and custom fab.

I'm not getting paid for this, just hopefully some experience, tools and leftover bits as a tip.
If it's a lot of work maybe a MS2 board for me??? who knows.....

Sounds like you have a good understanding. My F.I. experience is Porsche C.I.S. and stock L-Jet and D-jet on BMW and 914's Nothing with MS or SDS.

So does MS have a pre-built unit? Which one? Is Micro Squirt a pre-built that you taylor to your sensors and injectors? What to buy...what to buy.....

Yes, my buddy is looking at MS3pro which is a pre built, but it's mo'money.
Hopefully someone with experience will chime in, but if not i'll be happy to share any info I find out.
What engine is your system going to be for? /4, /6, the Alien?

I'm working on a set of intakes for a 4 that is different than what is currently being shown with the other system projects posted here. McMark was boasting about Micro Squirt. If that's a pre-built I would be interested in starting with that.

I believe you can get is assembled as well

http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/megasqu...2e0032edca49e62

mega vs micro
http://www.ms3efi.com/feature-xref.html

note: I could have sworn that I recently saw a mega unit that had a sticker on it, that said, for off road use only?

Ya, I was surfing the microsquirt site and there was a disclaimer about using it on emission vehicles.

This system is really nice, if money is no object I would go with a motec setup but this stuff works and is very user friendly...

http://sdsefi.com/

SDS is in the running, if you read my first post you'll see I've installed several SDS systems including the system that was in my 914/4 that's now going on my bug.
In fact I was using SDS long before Jake was.

The SDS is "simple," which is good, but that's also another way of saying "limited." One of the bad things about Megasquirt is that it's not "limited", so there are an awful lot of things to deal with. Sometimes that's too much for hobbyists or people getting involved with modern fuel injection for the first time, but not an issue for people who already have a good background.


In California and maybe other states vehicles need to pass both a functional (sniffer) test but also a visual, with nothing changed from the way the manufacturer delivered the car. Obviously the MS boxes won't pass that test, so that's the disclaimer. I think McMark was working on a way to put a microsquirt into an OEM ECU box if you want to keep the vintage look on a T4. He also does general Megasquirt so would be the guy to talk to.

Another option is Mario at the Dubshop, who was recommended by DIY Autotune to re-work a board my son fried. He's all aircooled, only does Megasquirt, he likes new ideas, and I know has background in turbo tuning. Plus can do simple English translations of the MS-speak babble. Website is http://www.thedubshop.net/shopping.html . Good guy and recommended.

I don't find SDS limited, if the final product is the same price I'll take SDS any day.
My other buddy already has a 450hp 930 turbo running SDS with zero issues. He has more money into the engine than most here have into their /6., $10K just into the custom Xtreme heads alone.

I'm sure Mario does nice work.

If anyone is interested I have an Autronics unit I bought from Jake Raby but I never installed. Jake had it installed I think on a Boxster for a dyno run when he was doing comparisons of different ECU's. Other than that never used. Has the wire harness, injector harness she's in excellent condition. I'll never use it I'd like to see it go to someone that could use it. PM me if interested.

The MegaSquirt main board has been through a few revisions, and the MSII and MSIII boards sit on top of the main board. I didn't understand it either until I actually had a unit in my hands from a customer.

So this kit below is a complete MS3 ECU?
http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/megasqu...case-p-419.html

And you add this below to get all the features, making it a MS3X ?
http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/megasqu...card-p-434.html

So would that basically give you a MS3pro in a DIY version? software the same ?

I realize it's just the ECU.....harness and everything else needs to be added, etc.



Also I don't know the CIS fuel pump, will I need an FI pump?

You got it.

The CIS pump is higher pressure usually. A 1 bar fuel pump and regulator would be a good idea.

So like $ 500.00 and you still need to buy the injectors, 02 TPS, etc.

Little more than that Rick.
With the stimulator and basic harness your up about $600, I'm at $709 so far with a 3 bar MAP (for turbo).
Then you need injectors, injector connectors,rails, wideband, pump, hose clamps, some tools, etc....

It adds up.

The same unit pro built (assembly line board,so some smaller components) with same basic harness is $1200 (my $709 figure includes a $55 stim and $99 MAP)...then you still need injectors, injector connectors,rails, wideband, pump, hose clamps, some tools, etc....


Even with the pro built they are recommending a stimulator, which is sort of like a fake engine to check that things work.

Then SDS looks like an option at $ 1200.00 for the second level unit? or am I still not getting this.

The MS will work out cheaper when all is said and done if you go the DIY route. To me it's at best break even if you go the pro built.

If your not doing a turbo the MS has a map sensor good for NA on the board, on the SDS the map is not included.
Remember the SDS like the MS will still need injectors, injector connectors,rails, wideband, pump, hose clamps, some tools, etc....

One thing of confusion is the 2 different terms on MAP and MAP...one MAP is a sensor and the other "MAP" is the values you input into the software program.
I know

this is why my complete setup is $3000.

SDS is not cheaper overall, and the tuning process is terrible (IMHO). I know people have had success, but it's just clunky. Of course, complex computer based systems are familiar to me. ALL aftermarket FI systems absolutely demand you learn all about them. Otherwise it's just a matter of time before they bite you.

There is a trick to tuning SDS, once you get your head around it it's not that bad. It took me a while to figure it out.
I can/have done it in about 30 minutes on a country road.

Mark, just a side thought on a totally different engine (mine) on a 914.

Which MS would you grab for a N/A twin plug dizzy with MSD and webers.

Been thinking that if I don't like the webers about doing a stealth nostalgia look using gutted carbs as TBs and hiding the FI as best I could. I'd still use the twin plug dizzy so it's a fuel only system.

MS 2? or a 3 without the expansion card?

I've been through this a few times now.
My first efi project i bought a Haltech sprint 500 which went onto my 914/4.
I'm very glad i spent the extra on it rather than a megasquirt as there were a few headaches with my setup and it was nice to not worry about the ecu.
One of the big reasons i went the haltech is that the software seemed much better for fisrt time use.
I've just installed my second unit on my daily driven Saab 900 and it was flawless.
I had a local guy who has heaps of experiance with Motec and megasquirt tune the car and he really liked the software.
My mate has now just bought a Haltech Platinum Sport 1000 which has more features which will be important for the turbo setup he's running.
My call given your mate is lookig at high output on a big dollar engine why try and save the money on the brain? Go a Haltech sport series or Link do some great stuff too

10 years ago I didn't know much about FI and I did agree with you and that's why I did SDS.
But Mega Squirt has come a long way since that time and I now have the confidence in my own FI, wiring and electronics knowledge to tackle this project. There are many high dollar MS builds out there.

This is a good build thread to look at MS and quality wiring.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911...ory-so-far.html

If it's a four I would run microsquirt. I would also lean toward COP. Distributors are a pita.

I was going to run micro squirt, fuel only, but I went with a preassembled megasquirt 1, its expandable for igniton and has the built in map, micro does not and if you need it the cost will be the same...
also because I have twin plug distributors and not worried about their curve and looks Old like me....

This is for my engine
It's a six with a jarvis/patrick twinplug MSD dizzy, kind of like to keep it....I'll see how it's on carbs first.

Mark,
Why are distributors a PITA?
Is it just easier to use a timing wheel and use the software to adjust the curve?

If COP, what do you suggest for parts?

Rich

Distributors have maintenance and timing settings, plus the advance curve is a PITA to change.
Single coil crank fire means you have to sync the FI signal and the physical orientation of the distributor, plus the advance mechanism may or may not be helpful.
No distributor means it's all up to the ECU and you can change timing on the fly any way you want.

Like anything else in this discussion, having options is powerful as long as you understand how to use them. If you're not ready/willing to take on the learning curve, go with a simple system.

I got that dizzy dirt cheap for helping a bud with his FI install. it only has about 10 -15 hours on it. It was on a custom CIS turbo that he could never get the FI to idle right

With SDS I could get the ignition configured to control the advance curve on that dizzy with the MSD.
You would have to lock out the advance in the dizzy and use a crank trigger.

If I don't like like the webers this is what I love to do and why I'd consider doing it. All the sexiness of a twin plug Weber /6 engine with FI tunablity
I asked about doing ignition like this on the MS forum a while back and they thought I was on dope.

The SDS system number is EM-5E/MSD
About a third of the way down this page http://sdsefi.com/specific.html

To be fair, you can do ECU-controlled ignition timing with a distributor; all the 'distributor' part does is pick which plug gets the spark over a very wide range of time.

What you need for ECU-controlled timing is an engine position reference (e.g. cam angle) and controlled spark generation. Look at the GM "small cap" EFI distributors for example, or the MS examples here: http://www.msextra.com/doc/ms3/ignition.html

(there doesn't appear to be a teaching-your-grandmother-to-suck-eggs smiley, sorry...)

yeah, but I can do COP way easier. So why would I ever bother.

Well I'll wait on my /6 till the verdict is in on the webers and twinplug dizzy.
But It does look like I'll have a MS3 to play with, so it will go on one of my cars, I'll just have to figure out which one.

I just came from Ross's house another local 914 guy. He is building a wild Suby powered 914, has a Manx style buggy powered by a Suby and a suby powered vanagon. He is installing Megasquirt on the Manx. After seeing what he purchased and checking out the computer test program. I'm on track. This thread has also been a big help.

Easier than an EDIS coil pack?

Why would I add EDIS, when MicroSquirt can control the coils directly? EDIS, in my opinion, is just an additional and unnecessary piece of hardware.

You don't need to use the EDIS module, that gets removed, then just use the coil pack and have the MS box control it directly. It's wasted spark, seems a little simpler (mostly cheaper) than COP, so I wondered if there were other advantages to the COP's.

Mark is (probably) talking about CNP using the GM LSx coils. This is easier than using the EDIS coil pack because you don't need an igniter.

Makes sense. I was curious because everyone around here uses the EDIS coils and the ignitors in the MS box because they're considered simple. Then COP is a step up, so when he described them as easier it caught my eye. Actually the other reason the EDIS is popular here might be because the Ford coils are just $12 at the Pick-n-Pull. Would explain a lot, but probably not significant in a 930 aplication.

Bosch makes a really easy ignitor as well for coils that aren't LSx (or others with a built in ignitor). Maybe EDIS is just as easy, but I try to take cues from Porsche factory designs. Their FI systems use the Bosch system, so I've never looked at EDIS.

A long and storied history should keep you from using something from a Ford product...