So…I am contemplating the next purchase… not in a rush.. the right deal at the right time…. heck…I may even go for a 1974 GTV Alfa Romeo--a whole different story!

I love the following three models:

All 912 coupe models (Ideally, Red, Silver, light blue, or the weird mustard color)
The 1989 930 (turbo) (Ideally Silver, Red, black)
The 1989 944 Turbo (S) (Ideally Red, Silver, Yellow)

Of course, they are all in different price ranges… so my interest is to get one of the above for fun, daily/weekend driver/ semi restored (I dont want to work on the cars too much aside from regular maintenance or basic work) and I do believe the wife will want to drive it more than the -6.

As I know how critical this group is, I would love to hear the pros/cons on the above models.

I pretty much have my mind made up, but want to check with the peanut gallery to see if I am in the right path…

If you are aware of a car for sale within the above types, I welcome also the lead--PM me or email me.

I can't speak for the 930 or 912, but I just sold my 951 about a month ago before buying my current 914. For the 6 or so years I had the car, it was fantastic. They handle very well (especially with Koni sports) and pull hard when you really stomp on it. Everything in the cabin is laid out nicely from the driver's perspective, and it is surprisingly comfortable on longer trips.

Having said that, they take quite a bit of work to keep them running well. Under the hood is cramped and you'll find that nearly all repairs require turbo components to be moved. They are not cheap cars to maintain. I'm sure you already know about the timing belt and water pump service (every 30 and 60k miles, respectively), but don't forget the clutch repair will run you a pretty penny if that is necessary- I believe the estimate was around $2,300 for the clutch because it is about a 21 hour job plus parts. It seems that delamination on the hatch is a growing concern with the age of the cars now as well as the obvious rubber hoses and seals that haven't already been taken care of. (Also, seeing that you're in SoCal, I have to add that getting a 951 smogged can be an ordeal)

Definitely not trying to steer you away from the 951 (I would buy another in a heartbeat) but thought it'd be better to have more info rather than less.

Wow

excellent feedback!!

Your info is right on target on my little research but did not want to believe it--you have just confirmed what seems to be the gut feeling I had on 944 Turbos as well as from my professional shop friends!!


So far, I am then liking the 912 for its simplicity and potential upside on value growth based on a lower investment up front.

Let's see if I get other feedback on the 944 and other models

Thank you!

Glad to help! Everyone on here has helped me so much with my 914 already, it's nice to be able to return the favor a little bit.

I don't think you'd be unhappy with any of the models you're looking at- they're all on my "to own" list, too

As you mention, there is dramatic difference in pricing for all three models. Also, all three are dramatically different in driving experience, maintenance cost, and appreciation potential.

Since the car is meant to be a play toy, drive all three (or four...Alfa) and buy the one that seems to be the most fun to you. Don't worry about the other stuff..

If you've never driven a turbo, either 951 or 930, and you're considering the 912, don't compare them. Once you feel the rush and the sounds of boost, it'll be hard to get out of your head. That being said, the 930 will be the most visceral driving experience out there. You'll either be hooked for life or it will scare the crap out of you (could be both).

I've had my 930 for almost 10 years, it's horrifically expensive, one because of addictive mods (more boost = FUN), two to maintain R&R an almost 40 year old car. I've spent a lot of time on the 930 boards on PP, and there is a saying, you're either a 930 guy, or you're not, decide what you are and jump in with both feet!

If you want a turbo power, I would go for a more modern car, otherwise you can't go wrong with an 87-89 911. There are nice ones out there and a whole lot easier and cheaper to drive. My 05 Carrera S was fast enough for me, but my 914 is way more fun. Power is relative.

Well, the 944 turbo is one of my most favorite cars of all time.. Drive a chipped one with sport suspension.

You either need to know how to work on your own cars or budget 2000 per year for maintenance. (More if big things need to be done the first year... Buy the nicest one you can afford while having another 2k in reserve for emergencies immediately).

The 944 turbo is an awesome commuter and long distance runner. 600+ miles to the tank.

930 bring money and it's hard to find one that hasn't been beat on.
If you find a good one just for shits and giggles ask if it's the original engine, 90+% of the time it isn't.

The 912 will be pretty well balanced, with limited power. And RUST is a sizeable problem with them. Not to mention that most of the car is shared with the early 911, meaning parts prices are very $$$.

They started back up the depreciation curve a number of years back, and seem to be gaining value at a moderate pace. Their bang-for-the-buck is not so great, but they have the superb look of the longhood 9-series cars. Actually, most of them are SWB cars even, which I think look better.

I hear maintenance on the 951 is just short of a nightmare, most especially if it has been deferred. But they go like stink, are easy and forgiving to drive, and scoot well around corners.

The 930 will be the most expensive to buy and probably to maintain. But OMFG, when you stand on the loud pedal you will get a big smile on your face...


I'd think that the lowest-performance car of the batch, the 912, would have the highest potential for wife approval. Though if your wife likes acceleration, the 951 is probably the better bet. The 951 will have heat and A/C that actually function well (if they're working correctly). The others have very 914-like heat and A/C. The 912 will probably be softest-sprung of the batch, though the 951 interior will be much more modern and may be more comfortable because of that.

If your wife likes "cute" cars, the 912 will probably be the easiest sell that way too.

I'm partial to the looks of the early cars, myself. But the rust issues can be pretty scary...

--DD

I've had a series of 911's (the latest a 73 S), two 914-6's, and a 77 930. There is nothing quite like the 930. Brutal. Nicer for a longer drive. Even guys that can afford the newer turbos seem to long for the earlier ones due to their rawness.

But, honestly, I think the 2.5 liter 914-6 is more fun to drive. Not good for longer trips and mine has no heat, but it is like a go-kart. And the music from the engine is the best. The handling is outstanding. Confidence inspiring.

For the money you would have to put in the other cars you are considering, I'd find a good six. A well done conversion with a more powerful engine would do the trick.

Can't say much about a 912 or 951, but I've had a blast with my '86 930. With the 930, I basically have to "tip-toe" around town meaning I can't stay in the throttle for more than a few seconds before I'm going way too fast.

The turbo does very little below 3k RPM but over that the car takes off. Or as my daughter described it, "it makes you feel like you're on a roller coaster".

I say go 930. The only problem with the 89 930 is price. However, the prices for 930s are going up fast. What ever year 930 you buy, expect it to double in price at resale time.

My wife much prefers the comfort of the 79 turbo over the 914/6 and 70 911S

I am going to be the odd voice in the room. I just started driving a 914 1.8 on a semi daily basis. (Borrowing my dads while I get my track 2.0 ready for action.) Never had any of the other p-cars you are considering either. My perspective is on the Alfa.

I grew up on a steady diet of Alfas. Spiders, GTV-6, Milano, 164, you name it we had them all. Their great, fun, cars. I love their in line 4 cylinder motors. Easy to work on and great to look at. I resto modded a GTV a few years ago and put as many miles as I can on it. Love it. Lost interest in driving my C6 vette because the GTV is so much fun.

Part suppliers here in the states are plentiful. More expensive than BMWs from the 80s but less expensive than Porsche. The cars from the 60-70's have the most support. Once you get into the 80-90's the cars were more complicated and they sold few of them (exception here is the spider as they are fundamentally unchanged since 74.)

There are few mechanics that can work on them and less every day. I do all my own mechanic work on my GTV now. Maybe in your area you have more service stations but in most parts of the country good luck. If you are in California you will be okay.

My GTV weights 2100 lbs and puts out 160 at the crank. That's with significant work and a European twin-spark motor. A lot more is possible but at a price. 200-220hp motors are being built. Its a blast to drive! But there is a limit to the performance envelop and it is a live rear axle car.

My GTV wont be coming up for sale any time, ever. As an alternative to a 914/912/early 911 sure. If your looking for modern performance the Alfa's not your car.

I am a bit lost here? Do you already have a 914? If so then:

912 - why bother if you already have a 914, also RUST

944 Turbo - I actually have an 86, its a brilliant car, I love it but in the last 10 year I think I have driven it less then 500 miles, it just sits in my garage, not because it is broken (it isn't) but because I am afraid to trash on it as it is to nice, and if anything breaks, no matter if I fix it myself, its still $$$$ and a lot of time. That being said, I have thought about selling it over the years and every time I take it out for a drive to get ready to sell, I immediately change my mind, its that good. So it is sort of a curse, I cant bring myself to drive it, but I cant bring myself to sell it either.

930 - Amazing car, but when you put it next to a 944 turbo can you justify the extra money? The 944 Turbo , is more balanced, more comfortable, and can be just about every bit as impressive performance wise.

Here is another idea for you:
I recently ventured to the very VERY dark side and picked up a 931 on a whim just because it was there and it cost less then a timing belt change on my 944. Still putting it back on the road, but the more I think about it the more I am liking it to be just a good all around driver. I mean think about it

Dirt cheap
decent power
awesome handling
comfortable
galvanized
pretty rare/unique

sure it wont have the massive power potential of the 951 or 930 (though 924 GTS /GTR spec is still pretty impressive), but then it doesn't have some of the massive costs either. Seriously, compare things like timing belt changes and steering/suspension costs between a 951 and a 931 and you may wonder why you don't already own one. Just a thought. Honestly never though I would own a 924, but now that I do it is growing on me.

Go 930 ....... I had one, they are very easily 'upgradeable' in the HP department ........ but if you can stand something more refined ..... do not rule out the 964 turbo.

Thank you much for the good feedback and all the models.

Seabird's yellow Alfa Romeo GTV is pretty much what I am considering--there are a few in the market right now well restored. Nice car Mr Bird!!

Regarding the other feedback on the 912--agree; they are nice cruisers and potential rust issues with a nice potential future value-- I do believe wife is partial to them

The 944--I have to admit, while not wanting to do so--everyone has always mentioned the cost associated with the car maintenance is not cheap; but sure is a performer with comfort!

Finally, 930--more expensive, but you get the ultimate ride--like one of the members kids said--like being on a roller coaster; harder to get of course and be ready to maintain.

Thus, I did not wanted to let you know my preference prior asking the question, but my final path very likely be:

1-Look for all three
2-If a great deal is found on any of them, take it
3-If I had the option of any of the three and not considering cost, but rather what I want, I will go with 930, 912 and and then 944 (just my preference and gut feeling).


Your feedback has made me more certain on the above plan--so MUCH APPRECIATED!!

Please, keep me in mind if you are or know someone selling any of the above

The ALFA--well, I have been a porsche lover, might as well stay with the family for now… but for the right price, I may sell my soul…don't we all!??

I vote for the 930. Once you experience the power, everything is too slow. Yesterday I was advised of a 89 930 going up for sale. It's in red / black interior. It's not going to be cheap. If interested, pm me.

May I suggest another model to check out?....it is based on my experience with different models and what I enjoyed most...for what it's worth. I had a 66 912, fun car, anemic, easy to work on, wouldn't get another after driving 911's. Had a 944, good balance, wasn't wowed though. Currently have a 911 wide body...love it. Have an aqaintance that has both an early and late 930...early is a beast and the late is more refined. Wife likes riding in the 911 over my 914-6 conversion. Now my suggestion...I had a 928s that I used for 6 years as a daily driver except for the 3 winter months. I put 70k miles on this car ant it was the most dependable porsche I've ever owned. Only expensive maintenance item I had to do was the timing belt replacement...which you'll need to do on the 944 also. The 928 was fast, handled like a dream, was a great cruiser, and I got stopped everywhere with folks wanting to talk about it. They are at good price points also! If you liked the 944....you may just love a 928. Out of the three on your list...930 would be my choice.

Agree--just hard to find the stick version! most are automatic??

I am more partial for air cool, but the 944 was a performance/look interest--

Thank you for your feedback!

968

I've owned an '89 944 Turbo and an Alfa 2000. The 944 was the best car I've ever owned. The Alfa, not so much.

I put over 120,000 km on the T while I owned it and then sold it to a mate who still drives it. It now has over 200,000 on the clock and still goes like stink. I left it bog stock and always over maintained it. Oil changes every 7500k, cam belts every 40,000k etc. Blew a head gasket for no reason at around 80,000k so while I was there I replaced the belt, water pump, valve guides, springs and fitted an aftermarket wide ring gasket, not cheap. I could only imagine what that would cost these days, back in '94 it was close to $5000.

Replaced a clutch once and the sump gasket too, both major jobs. Despite the expense of ownership you have to spend a lot more to get the same performance out of a 911.

You can drive them off boost and fuel consumption is like any other 4 cylinder, around 30-35mpg and your grandma could drive it. Stomp on it however and the beast is unleashed.

The friend who bought it off me has since chipped it, added a billet waste gate and a couple of other slight mods and it's punching out 300+hp at the wheels.

The Alfa rusted worse than any 914 and bits fell off it left and right including the steering rack bolts dropping out. Fun to drive and very well balanced but not nearly enough engine performance so you have flog the crap out of them. The gear shift is less than precise, clutch slave cylinders are notorious for failure, as are drive shaft donuts and they rust in places other cars don't, like the tops of the doors and roof sills.

Buy a 944 T only (or any Turbo Porsche) if you can find an unmolested one with low miles and full history and can justify the expense of maintenance. If you can, then these are one the best cars ever built.

Awesome feedback--got it.. i am probably sticking to the porsche gang for now...

I really like driving my 2.0, But one of my best cars was my BMW 1600, And my 250C Benz....Now I just got my wife a MGB...and its a fun lil car.

Check it: 3 928s. $15K. Pick one. Or all three. O_O

http://jacksonville.craigslist.org/cto/4254723091.html

I feel if you already have a 914, don't bother with the 912. Their value is a bit above the 914 due to it being "all" Porsche (not our beloved "bastard" 914 with an identity crisis). It's same power but 914 handles better and more fun to drive. And if you want to jack it up the 914 is easier and more fun to drive still. Unless you really like the 911 F model body (personally, the F model is my favorite 911 followed by the G model) and prefer the more conservative 4 cylinder engine. I also agree for the money, go for a large 914-6 conversion done WELL (not molested and goofed up like some we see). Unless you want something totally different from another 914 (though power and performance will vary greatly), which I can understand either way.

The 930 I've never driven. But have always wanted to. For me, it would be a money thing. Which I don't have. Which is why I first got into 914s. It was the only Porsche I could afford. BUT, if you are like some people I know where money is just print on paper and cost/maintenance was not a factor, I'd go 930. Release the beast.

Personally, I would love to have an early 911S. Late 60's - early/mid 70's.

PS - vintage Alfas are so cool.

1986 944 - $7500
Looks to be in nice condition. Was going to check it out for myself just because I've never driven a front-engine Porsche.
http://jacksonville.craigslist.org/cto/4244584547.html

Here's another. 1987 944 - $4995
http://staugustine.craigslist.org/ctd/4250929171.html

The early '76-'79 930 market is reaching 6 digits now for top quality cars.
Even the grey market turbos are coming up as well.
Get your 914-6 or 914-6 conversion purchase in order, as these cars are next in line for tall prices. Check this 930 value chart out (source Hagerty)
MartyClick to view attachment

Miguel, awesome twin plug Alfa...never seen one here. International Auto Parts exhaust header, or Factory race item?
Beautiful hot rod !
Marty

I've always been drawn to them as they are damn sexy (for a front engine ).

BTW, OP, the 930 & 912 are pretty noisy cars (wind), you sure the wife is up for the long drives? Mine can go from south OC to Santa Barbara in the 930, but it's exhausting for her, any further I know I'd be pushing my luck...

Holy shit! That's amazing!

I'm sure the 50th Anniversary of the 911 and high exposure vintage modifying guys like Magnus Walker has drawn more attention and desirability to earlier 911s. I always wanted an early model. I guess I can pretty much forget about it now.

Although... A guy I know just scored a near-mint 1970 911T (same engine in a 914-6), low miles and impeccable shape, no rust and only missing the front chrome bumper. He went to tune it up as a favor to his buddy's neighbor. Turns out it was her husband's, she never drove it or cared to and while he's tuning it up, she tells him she really just wants to get rid of it. Not thinking he'd be able to afford it, he asks out of curiosity how much she wants for it. "How's $9,700?" Too good to be true? Nope. Actually saw it again today. It was at my mechanic's shop.

Excellent condition, low miles, all original (except for racing seats), no rust, immaculate and complete interior, original Irish Green paint, even has an unused tool kit, 1970 911T - $9,700. Okay he actually gave her $10K to be fair. Jealous? You bet your ass.


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I always thought that my 944S2 was much nicer than my Turbo. It was very fast & drove much better than having the Turbo in & out

My dream 912 would have to be an early SWB, Bahama Yellow with a 1720 big-bore kit

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Marty, thanks. There are a few floating arond the state's. More than you think. The header is a Alfaholics ss full system from the UK.

If you leave most/all cars from the 60s and 70s out in the rain and weather they will rust. If you don't clean out the weep holes that have been collecting dirt and debris for 30 years moisture is going to be present which is going to exacerbate the rust problems. Every car has its trouble spots, much like the 914 has the Hell hole and the 63-65 Riviera's have their front hood issues. There are just some aspects of every design that were not though out well.

Whatever you decide to buy research it, figure out it's problem points, and do the preventative maintenance. Once that is out of the way you will have no problems with any of these cars, Alfa included. To many people buy the most expensive car they can and then can't do the PM and have a poor experience.

If your heart is in the Porsche, don't buy anything else. You'll spend time and money and it still won't be a Porsche and you won't be happy with it.

Buy the ticket, take the ride.

Miguel

The 928 trio--nice, but not my cup of tea--all automatic…. thank you

The 944--nice, but also automatic…

The 911 T--what a deal!!!
RRRRRR……..


All of the above cars are in FLORIDA!! at least $2200 extra to ship….to CALI

Still searching--good input

Miguel--love your alfa, but agree…I am sticking to Porsche--this thread has helped me narrow my search….

1989-91 944 S2 or 968 are great alternatives to a 951. This was my 89 944S2, best all around car I've ever owned and next to the 914 my favorite. The big 3.0 is rated at 208hp and 237 with variocam in the 968. With a chip/intake and exhaust a bit more too. They don't have that Turbo punch and aren't as tunable for big hp like a 951 but they aren't slouches and handle just the same especially lowered with some konis and fat rubber. Plus they are super comfy and can haul alot of stuff! I miss my Porsche's
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No Way! I'll drive it from Florida to Woddy's in Texas, then he can take it to your Love Nest! Bet we can get it to you for under a Grand!

…no

Yes I prefer manual as well. Didn't know if you had a preference. These cars at these prices (esp. The 928 S and S4s) are steals just like the 911T which would sell for 6x-7x that much. Sometimes the adage "If it's too good to be true..." isn't always the case. She just didn't know what she had (or cared to find out because she just wanted to get rid of it). The others seem to be selling out of financial need. Definitely worth more.

I can look around here for you if you decide on which car you want. Agood working order car at a good price would be worth shipping or flying in to drive back. A guy called me last night who's planning on flying here this week to buy my 914 2.2 and drive it back to NM.

Perhaps I missed it, but my question is why are you looking at such vastly different cars? Many have mentioned go 930 or 944/968 for the performance aspects, while the 912 is potentially a more affordable collectors car, but is the the 914 arena when it comes to performance. Do you desire performance, collectors value, a weekend driver that is something different, etc?

For me I headed to a 914 over 944 due to maintenance. Though I couldn't argue the 944 looks better outside and in (in my opinion), drives better, and 10-15 years younger, I just heard and read too many issues with maintenance. Granted I could manage most aspects of maintenance in my garage, I didn't want to go there for a fun car.

Fast forward a few years later now time for 911 or 930. For me it became a money issue with greater purchase costs and greater maintenance costs - once again being a weekend car I couldn't justify tying up that much cash, so I chose an 84 Carrera with a few minor engine mods bringing it in line with the Euro model power. Granted my worked up Suby is faster off the line, the 911 is a blast to drive, much more comfortable than the 914, and my wife will drive the 911 but not the 914 (for some that might not be a good thing...)

I love Italian styling, but have only owned one, an 80 Fiat that lived in the garage from the time it came home from the dealership. I'm not convinced anything from Italy can compare to Porsche quality.

Just keep in my mind we all have different opinions that vary greatly, so buy what you want - you'll make some of us happy your choice, and others will scratch their head saying "what was he thinking..."