I have a set of 14" fuchs that came off a 1970 914/6. I do not know if they were for sure original to that car, because i got them from the current 914 owner, who is not the original owner. .

come to find out when i went to put tires on these that there was a transitional period in the late 60's to early '70's when we went from tube tires to tubeless tire.
in doing some research on other porsche sites including the 356 registry, that these 5-lug were designed and set up to have tube type tires. later on the rims were manufactured with a safety ridge to hold the tire in place in the possibility that it ran low or flat. whereas the tube tires would blow out and come off.

I have heard mixed things about the safety issue with running non-tube tires on this design of rim.

So i come to the collective knowledge and experience of the WORLD to find out if anyone here has ever run these rims with tubeless tires and had a catastrophic failure?? - blow out etc.

-also, seems the hole for the valve stem is made differently and does not want to hold a standard valve stem properly?
-
so , do i

1. keep them & put tubless tires on anyway

2. keep and find tube type tyre with tube & valvestem that would work

3. Sell to some nice 914/6 or early 911/912 owner who should have OEM to make their OEM vehicle period correct?

Thanks

PJW

No problems

so can you tell me what tires you run and how you solve the valve stem issue thanks

No problems when I ran them.

the wheels are not here for me to examine
but the tires are 215/60/14
and I don't know what the tire shop did regarding the valve...

I'd go to a good independent tire shop and talk to the old timers
ultimately they know what to do...

but I've seen dozens of -6's running without tubes
and tens of dozens of guys running the old deep -6 15inch 911 wheels with out tubes... (also built to be used with tubes)
and even more VW guys running deep 6 wheels.....

I used to race with a guy who had a 67 911S and ran 225/50/15 tires on his deep 6 wheels... Hoosiers no less, so a really wide 225 and also with no tubes

When I had my 14" polished the stems were removed. Later when I tried installing new stems did I find out they were a special diameter and the local tire place could not find replacements for them. I ended up installing tubes in them for around $7 each. I think they are ok except if you run over a nail and need repairing then it will be interesting.

If you can find replacement stems that fit the early fuchs, could you please share.

Thanks.

never heard anything about this. . . the 14's on my car are date coded 1969 and all have tubeless tired. .

I researched this when I bought my deep sixes and the consensus was unless you really push your tires hard ie autocross or outright racing, you should not have any problems. I bet Eric or others can source the correct valve stems for us if they dont already.

btw someone said that the "J" stamping on our wheels meant - to be used with tubeless tires.

Supposedly there is an added bead in the rim to help tubeless tires from breaking seal under extreme side loads. Whether you could get to those load levels in daily road driving conditions is questioned by some.

Never heard about this or even thought about it. I have a set of 14's. I'll have to look at the date code. BTW: they have tubeless tires on them. When I get the time to get the tires off they are going to Eric Shea for a secret project.

Anecdotal evidence of no problems is just good luck. You've really answered your own question, the correct answer is NO. You cannot safely run a tubeless tire on a rim designed for tube tires. If the additional retention bead in the "J" code wheel wasn't needed for tubeless tires why would they have put it there?

Sorry to be the only wet blanket here.

yes, exactly. the J is exactly it. ran accross and group discussion on the 356registry site, discussion talked about the thousands of tires that were run on tube design rims because suddenly they were not making tube tires, but those rims were still on the road, hundreds of thousands of tires and cars before most were no longer on the road.



not a problem. this is the issue that Bob Woodman discussed with me. he said, he thought its not a big issue for daily driving, but, he would not take his car set up like that to the dragon , or Robeling Road track near here and push it hard. now with that said the main issue is this should not happen unless the tire is deflated, pressue is reduced because of valve stem leak or nail etc. .

Eric Shea send me a note on ths subject because i asked him about it in a PM, he indicated he is running same 14's , and will putting off-road tubeless tires on his off-road project car and is not concerned about it.

it does seem like if it were a big danger we would have seen more discussion on the subject at some point. the 356 and 912 guys are 90% running tubless tires on the exact same rims. i have not gotten any feed back from them saying there has been common failure in doing this. I think if we solve the valve stem issue, i will put them on for my DD. and keep looking for 15's or 16's for occasional track use. - but if someone with a /6 comes along that really wants originality, then call me- they can be had for the right price

I have yet to ever hear of a failure. And I know of track cars running Hoosiers at low psi

Real word evidence of years of use and abuse says... no problems.

I had some tubeless tires mounted last year, and the tire shop didnt have an issue with finding appropriate stems. I had used tubed Michelin XAS's up to then. I havent driven it hard since, so no real knowledge of if they would survive spirited driving

All the early Fuchs are tube type, pre 69...
All the 14x5.5 I have had have the saftey bead.

Edit I don't know the PN, I just pulled some 901 PN14s no safety beads...

Post a picture of the seat area ..

I hope those arnt 15 inch because they would be worth a heck of alot more $$$ regardless of the saftey bead..

I've had 14" fuchs with tubeless tires on my car since the 70's
I've done some seriously stupid things especially in my late teens
including many 60+ mph rotaries and 100 mph back roads.

Never had an issue.

Not sure of the manufacture date though.

Maybe someone could post a picture of what the "J" bead looks like vs. pre-tubeless.

I think I can do it with steelies, but not Fuchs

Engineers/Theory vs Real world experiences.

Who's right? But my perspective is that any safety concerns apply to a narrow scenario involving an extremely low/flat tire. I think most of us on here would recognize something was wrong and pull over before the 'special scenario' became reality.

Here is the rim and I.d.stamp of my 14"fuchs

so if the J is for tubeless tires, you already have rims for that....

but as I stated 3 x above... I've seen 225 hoosiers raced on 6inch deep fuchs with no problem.

that is where i am confused because there is not a safety ridge or what ever you call it. these are not tubeless rims.

- so i was just over at the shop to take these pictures and i spoke to the guy who was going to put the tires on and he showed me the valve stems, he could not get them to stay in place he could mount the tire , inflate it but with thumb pressure he could push the stem right back in.

it so happens that there was a 15" rim sitting there, a 15x6 , so i took pictures- same exact rims, so safety bead, BUT, the hole where the valve stem goes had a little rib or lip half way in that the valve stem could grab onto, which my rims do not have. i'll post a picture of that as well. -

First picture is valve stem hole for the 14, next one is the 15, which has a lip or ridge. Which holds the valve in place, last pic is rim on the 15 exact same inside and outside lips as my 14's

and that first picture it is a bit decpetive, the inside of that hole is smooth, there is no lip or step for the ridge of a modern valve stem to grab onto to keep it from pushing back inside -

Here is the stem they were trying to use

Hmmmmm.

Which came first? The tubeless tires or the rims?

One would think the tires were designed for existing rims.:

Little reasearch for them...

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/tec....jsp?techid=208

i was just looking at that very page, and thinking the clamp style should be used in this instance, going to look into that this weekend.

in response to wndsnd- tube tires came first. there was a time of transition, tube type rims still on the road but the beginning of the production of tubless tires and the safety bead on the new rims then came next due to the concern that they may come off at low pressure etc as discussed. .

point is a standard valve for today will not hold in that rim, I could procure tubes with valves, use those in the tire of my choice, looks like that or try one of these clamp down type is the other choice, and take my chance that the tire will stay in place as long as they are properly inflated. (as has been the case more many here)

I think the folks at your tire shop don't have real life experience of old tech wheels......

kids if you will

Dr Phil,
The safety beads are not related to tubeless tires.
They were a first attempt for run flats.
The "J" is not related to safety beads. That is why your wheels have the "J" and no safety bead.
There have been car companies that have used tubeless tires without safety beads. (Many British wheels had no safety beds in the 80s)
Porsche used the safety beads starting with the 911 (part number)series Fuchs wheels.
About 2 years before going to tubeless tires. The 912E 14" has safety beads...and the 911 forging number.
I have used tubeless tires on Porsches without safety beads since 1972.
Today many, if not the majority of vintage Porsches racing, use tubeless tires on wheels without safety beads.
The stem fittment is a different matter.
Like you showed, there should be a place for the "snap in" stem to seat...but if you put them in dry as we have done for decades, they will work. Or have them machined like we do the deep 6s.
Sometimes the stem bean counters make a slimmer stem that doesn't have enough interference to stay in. Look for another brand of 413 or use a metal stem.
Hope this helps.
Harvey

Harvey,

So does the "J" mean will made to accept tubless tires or does it mean something else?

Thanks
John

Old POS 14 in my pile, has a tubeless stem..901 PN has no safety bead..
the hole measures correct for a 413 but is long as noted..
Here is the one that was installed..

Here are some stubbies I have and use for everything, Its a hard pull with lube and an orbital motion to get em to snap in, you'll feel the initial snap but need to orbit it to get 360 retention...
Even with lube I cannot push it back in..

Thanks harvey, it answers a lot of questions in this discussion. I think it will help my guy feel better about putting the tires on I had selected. They were delivered monday, but he sent them back thinking they shouldnt use them. I think the bolt on type might be the best way to go here.
I do have a question for you, is it worth the cost of refurbishing + shipping to do the 14's like these? Or would I beputting more into them than they are worth?

Will these fit with holes without the lip ? What's the PN markings on them and where did you buy them from please ?

Thanks

I buy the metal shrouded stems when I buy new tires. It's only $12. for all four of them.

Like Harvey said 413 is the generic PN.. and yes for the holes with no lip (counter bore)

going to try these, and having then re-order the tires, after getting advice from many long time porsche people, i am not concerned with running the tubless tires , just have to make sure that tires have proper inflation. even on the 356 registry this was a much discussed issue and consensus was that there has never been an issue with loosing a tire, but if that is a concern there is a tire bead sealant that can be used to hold the bead leak free, probably not necessary but maybe extra insurance.

-

Car Jewels fresh outbid the box from Harvey.



Click to view attachment

take em to a machine shop and have the front side counter bored square to the bore like the later wheels ..Is the answer if you have any doubts..

those steel ones are no going to not pull square due to the angle of the face of the wheel to the valve stem bore.. even more wrong..

Wow those really look nice! Was there any rash repair required? I like! Makes me strongly consider getting these sending mine to him. He says he does 3-4 sets of 14's a month now.
Very nice. So when you go to put the valve stems in what are you going to use? I was told that another option word be to machine, counter bore the hole so that there would be a lip for the snap in ones to grab on to, OR use a bead sealant type stuff and the should be held tight.

I just took them to the local tire store and said " mount them up". Standard valve. Same as I've always done. I know not of what your guy is telling you about these 14's.

As stated previously.

Your tire guy is overthinking this and perhaps inexperienced?

Time for a new tire guy

Eric, those Fuchs are beautiful!!! Harvey is doing a set of 15"x6" Fuchs for my conversion. I can't wait.

Finally go the valve stem issue taken care of and now tires! Mounted today. Will get them on the car after I repaint the insets.