OR do I need to remeasure the shaft play ?
What are the consequences of not doing this?

Measure for sure.

The consequences of not doing this?

new flywheel, you need to measure.
Three shims, not 2 and not four.....always 3.

The results could be too much end play and wearing out all your crankshaft and rod bearings....plus seals.

Rich

Ditto

i just went through this.you need to measure end paly with new flywheel,its not worth the consequences as mentioned above.

o.k. thanks for the advice, live an learn!. its not that big of deal.
it came up yesterday, when my mechanic, who lives down the road from me was cruising thru the neighborhood with his 911, stopped by to see how my progess was going, and as we were talking about all the suspension work we were doing, and that i just did the clutch, he says " so how'd the end play measure out?" so he's going to stop by after work this week and bring over the tool so i can do this - since he says as you guys have mentioned here, that it HAS to be 3 shims, of the correct thickness, otherwise just a short drive could be a bad deal.

LOL i am getting pretty good and dropping the transmission!!

so my next question is do i have to pull the flywheel back off , or just point me to the thread since i am sure this has been discussed before but i have not seen a write up on it before.

Thanks

Here's a link to a custom 914 world search. I have it saved on my desktop.

https://www.google.com/cse/home?cx=00240834...772:ajvfxschcgc

o.k, a couple more questions.

I just read thru the proceedure in my Tech Tips book and read thru a few threads on the subject, so now i have a few questions.

1. since i already installed the original 3 shims and its all in place,
once i pull the transmission off again, and the pressure plate etc. with the new flywheel in place as is, can i measure for the endplay to see if it is within standards right now, without taking the flywheel off andtaking the main seal out etc as described in the book? it would save a lot of trouble if it checks out o.k,

or is it not possible to check the endplay with the rear main seal in place(proceedure shows to bolt flywheel and 2 shims with out the seal, check end play, and add 3rd seal to put the endplay withing the .07-.15 standard., correct?),

2. can i reuse the new crush washer that i just installed last week, or when i take it off after this proceedure do i have to put a new one on again?

- so do you measure will all 3 in place the add/subtract thickness to put it in the correct thickness, OR put 2 in, measure endplay, then add the thickness of the #3 to put it into the .07-.15, and do you remeasure after placing the #3 in there just to make sure?

- well thats all i can think of at this time, i dont know if i will need to source a set of shims yet, if any one has a bunch of extras i could use i would be glad to send back to you what i dont need, pay for what i do


thanks

- I believe you can measure endplay with the seal in place.

- The standard procedure is to put two shims in and then measure. Figure out what size the third one needs to be, then get one of those and install it. If you can't get one of the correct size, then you play with the thicknesses of the other two shims so you can the the play in the correct range.

- You can re-use the lock plate. I'm not sure I'd re-use it more than a couple of times, though.


-- BTW: Worst case for having the endplay wrong is that you beat the s--t out of the crank bore in your crankcase. If it's not that bad, you can get it line-bored and use oversize bearings. If it's bad enough, the case is scrap and you need a new one. So yeah, it's a little important.

--DD

Details on how to measure endplay should be added to Pelican's clutch replacement tech article. It's mentioned, but only briefly and not in a way that fully describes the procedure or the necessity of having 3 shims.

I installed a new clutch and new flywheel last spring and only recently learned that I should have also checked the end play. Probably put a few thousand miles on the mother since then. Hoping I didn't shorten the life of my motor.

I'm still trying to learn the right way to check the end play with the flywheel installed. Would be nice if I didn't have to pull it and replace the seal again.

Is this correct?
1) Tap flywheel with a mallet/block of wood
2) set dial indicator
3) pull the flywheel by hand and measure how much it extends
Is .003"-.005 the proper spec? (I've seen slight variations listed when searching other threads)

Just got finished doing this to the '67 Bug (T-1) motor. The RMS was leaking, so I thought I'd better check. End play was .012"

Click to view attachment


Luckily, the PO didn't put very much time on the motor after he rebuilt it.

I removed the RMS and pulled the shims out. Measured play with the flywheel reinstalled, then installed the correct thickness shims and reinstalled the flywheel again. Got it down to .004"

Once that was over with, pulled the flywheel again, installed a new RMS and o-ring in the flywheel.

T-4s are great ... the flywheel bolts are a whole lot easier to torque than the 253 ft lbs a T-1 gland bolt needs

I agree , there should be a better example of how this is done.vi will do this when I do mine.
Well I won't get to this until next week , that's when my mechanic can come over and bring his stuff but from my research a type IV endplay should be between .07-.15, so .004 seems way too tight.

When he mentioned .004 he was talking about the type 1 engine he just did. I don't know what is correct for a type 4.

When I put my stock 2.0 L back together I started with the original 3 shims. If the end play was off I would figure out what I need, and mic what I had, and change one out. If it was spot on I would save myself a bit of work having to put it together only once.

I got lucky. Did a final torque check and moved on.

I believe you can leave the seal in place...
work the shims out around the inside lip of the seal and not molest it

according to factory manual
.07-.13mm. with a .15 wear limit.
That equates to .003-.005 inches if I did my math correct

No way Brant.

thats what i thought. I was asking about leaving the shims in because i already replaced the RMS, put the original shims back in, so i wanted to just check it before pulling the flywheel back off, but after installing the new center bearing, i put the new flywheel back on and torqued it all down, THEN i realized after putting the transmission back in that i had not checked the endplay
, so what ive been told is pull the transmission, take off the clutch, then test the endplay, if it is within standards, leave it alone, if not, THEN pull the flywheel and redo the shims, recheck it again and if it all tests out, Done!.

i dont want wait on my mechanic so i am looking into borrowing the indicator to do this this weekend. -

I can't see what difference the clutch would have on endplay. Hard part will be getting the dial indicator to sit solid. The flywheel is nice and flat.

You don't necessarily need to remove the clutch to check the end play, as long as you're able to measure the travel.

Although not ideal, could you not just check the end play on the fan pulley side? I will push and pull the pulley just to have a check on the end play when motors are in the car and I' m just getting a quick, rudimentary idea as to the state of the bottom end.

Jon

I would advise against it. Depending on your clutch cable adjustment, the release bearing pressure on the pressure plate could give you an inaccurate measurement

But the bearing will be on the floor with the trans.

I thought he said "... check on the end play when motors are in the car ..."

Where does the dial indicator/or other tool sit on the flywheel when measuring endplay?

Click to view attachment

Is there anyway I can measure from the front of the car at the fan with the engine installed so I don't have to pull the transmission (again) just to take a measurement? If not, can someone invent a way?

I wouldn't mind removing the transmission so much if it wasn't for the CVs. They are such a messy PITA.

Anywhere flat will do.

You can use the fan, if you can find a decently flat spot for the indicator to rest. Or if you can make sure to only measure the linear (fore-and-aft only!) movement of the crank assembly. If the surface is tilted or curved, unless you are perfectly straight on, the measurement may also include some of the tilt.

....If that makes sense.... I hope it does!

--DD

yes, motor is in the car, and i put the transmission back on, but car is still on jackstands until i finish the brakes and install the other left side suspension and brake, hub , CV etc so on saturday i will pull the transmission back off, and clutch, and to the measurement- I am really hoping that i will not have to re-shim. If it is within spec then i can put it all back together.

but just in case, who can we order shims from??

All the usual places
Bughaus
Busdepot
Aa
Pelican
Hph
Aircooled.net
Vw dealership
Etc.

Plenty of used ones from our members.

great thanks for the info. going to get that measured and then i guess once i know the specific amount need to make up, if any. if anyone has the one i need that would be great.

I'm confused. (Not unusual). If the endplay was set correctly to begin, I don't understand why changing the flywheel with would necessitate measuring endplay again. The amount of movement doesn't change with a change in thickness of the flywheel, it changes with the shims, right? What am I missing?

Hope I'm not hijacking this thread. Let me know if I should move this.

Tolerances in manufacturing. End play has about .003 inch tolerance. If the flywheel is machined to +/- .005 inch (just sayin) then a replacment could fall outside the allowable.

On a high mileage engine the bearings will wear in the block increasing your endplay so it becomes out of spec. Once you use the three thickest shims available and it's still out of spec you will have to tear the bottom end apart and replace the necessary parts.

Jon

So we're talking about this measurement (in red) potentially being different on every flywheel, even with OEM?

Click to view attachment

And it sounds like measuring endplay every so often (every x number miles?) is worthwhile to verify all is within speck as bearing wear?

Yes. Cars aren't built like Swiss watches

Yep, even if you get a flywheel with the exact OEM spec, the bearing wear might still make the end play be out of spec.

Jon

Jon, not a highjack at all. its a good question, and this is why it we have to recheck it. So i am hoping that we can be within tolerance but, if not its best to know now, than to not figure it out had have the catastrophic happen! i know eventually i will tear this engine down and rebuild it for a bigger 2.0, but i dont want to do that now, just want to get this back together and enjoy the driving for a while.

I have a waterboxer westfalia that has 425,000 km on the chassis and who knows on the motor. I had to pull the engine two years ago to to fix a burnt exhaust valve. I checked the endplay before I put it back in and it was out. I couldn't get it back into spec so I put the three biggest shims in the VW has and I've since put approx 15k on the engine. And like you, I did it with the intent of it not being in the van to long.

Jon