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porbmw
I know that, by and large, this has been discussed, here and there....but with some apparent gaps.

I'm going to see if I can summarize what I have garnered, mainly with direction from Steve Gaglione, who owns one of most pristine and unmolested 914s in existence.

My quest started with the engine compartment. I have done a complete bare metal paint on a previously painted car.

The color is done..and is getting wet sanded...but that leaves me to do all of the black....and that led to my contacting Steve.

Issue #1 The 2 uprights in the engine compartment... the ones that house the rubber bumpers on top, upon which the engine lid rests. The uprights are painted body color....until one gets to the top, where they are black.
Question...the top part of the bracket...is it a soft or a hard line, where it meets the upright part of the brace.
Answer...it is a soft line, about 1/16inch down from the flat top. Steve thinks they likely were hand painted, the line is not perfectly straight..he suggests spraying some flat black into a container, then with a 1/4 to 3/8 artist's brush painting it by hand
Question...color...as noted...flat.

Issue #2 Sheen of the engine lid that is below the mesh...Steve believes that it is the same as the uprights...flat.

Issue #3...Sheen of the mesh on the sides and the engine lid. Steve believes it has more of a gloss, perhaps Wurth Satin. I found this particularly interesting...in that it means there are 2 sheens of black paint in that area.

That lead me to the next query.

Issue #4....the front and rear valances and rocker panels. I will comment that I recently bought an almost pristine snowplow that appears to be unmolsted, barely used, with factory paint...it has a satin appearance, very little sheen. Steve's car has all factory original paint...he used a Meguiars' Swirl Remover and some Cleaner Wax on them way back in 2003, says they looked great....and not as much sheen as was put onto a 6 (powder coat) semi-gloss of about 65-70%. He concurs that they are closer to a satin than a semi gloss

Issue #5....texture. The snowplow I bought...and from my very vague 40 year old recollection, the 74 that I bought new and sold within the year....have essentially no texture....smooth.... Steve concurs..."a smooth texture but with some orange peel"

So..... stirthepot.gif
Tom_T
Actually, Steve has 3 of the best - 73 2l + -6 & LE first.gif

He's also a great guy!!! smile.gif

First, maybe ask Steve if he can take pix addressing all of your questions & posting them with his other pix of "Sahara" in the O&H nailed topic: "The few, the rare...." IIRC. ....a pic is worth 1000... smile.gif

Next, see my notes bold+italic in your message below....

QUOTE(porbmw @ Apr 9 2014, 02:16 PM) *

I know that, by and large, this has been discussed, here and there....but with some apparent gaps.

I'm going to see if I can summarize what I have garnered, mainly with direction from Steve Gaglione, who owns one of most pristine and unmolested 914s in existence.

My quest started with the engine compartment. I have done a complete bare metal paint on a previously painted car.

The color is done..and is getting wet sanded...but that leaves me to do all of the black....and that led to my contacting Steve.

Issue #1 The 2 uprights in the engine compartment... the ones that house the rubber bumpers on top, upon which the engine lid rests. The uprights are painted body color....until one gets to the top, where they are black.
Question...the top part of the bracket...is it a soft or a hard line, where it meets the upright part of the brace.
Answer...it is a soft line, about 1/16inch down from the flat top. Steve thinks they likely were hand painted, the line is not perfectly straight..he suggests spraying some flat black into a container, then with a 1/4 to 3/8 artist's brush painting it by hand
Question...color...as noted...flat.

[/i]Flat or something between satin & flat - similar to the wiper arms' sheen - or lack thereof. I think that the arms were the "victim" of overspray of the black at the factory, & I recall seeing some new 914's on the lot back then when you could almost make out the diamond grid pattern of overspray, but I'm not for sure.

Issue #2 Sheen of the engine lid that is below the mesh...Steve believes that it is the same as the uprights...flat.

Me too - see above.

Issue #3...Sheen of the mesh on the sides and the engine lid. Steve believes it has more of a gloss, perhaps Wurth Satin. I found this particularly interesting...in that it means there are 2 sheens of black paint in that area.

IMHO I think it was all the same paint/sheen as noted above, but the paint traveling airborne down inside would have a few more nanoseconds to dry in flight & give a flatter tone. It could also be painter's technique with similar results for similar reasons. Remember, these were the Porsche econo-sports cars & even the body paint had eggshell, so even your color sanding could be considered over-resto by some (like Pat G.).

Also, they weren't too carefull to get color onto every inner surface - such as behind the gas tank, etc. & left with primer showing - which you wouldn't want to do today & leave it exposed to the tinworm IMHO - so a good complete paint job on a resto could also be considered over-resto by some. IMHO - do the best & most complete & most protective you can, so that they'll last another 40 years, even if it's a bit better than when originally rolling off the Karmann factory floor!


That lead me to the next query.

Issue #4....the front and rear valances and rocker panels. I will comment that I recently bought an almost pristine snowplow that appears to be unmolsted, barely used, with factory paint...it has a satin appearance, very little sheen. Steve's car has all factory original paint...he used a Meguiars' Swirl Remover and some Cleaner Wax on them way back in 2003, says they looked great....and not as much sheen as was put onto a 6 (powder coat) semi-gloss of about 65-70%. He concurs that they are closer to a satin than a semi gloss

Agreed - and they also have a pebbly finish applied under the black which was an undercoat, which most folks today reproduce with Wurth spray Shutz undercoating with careful technique to reproduce the pebble texture, then the Wurth satin black or similar over top.

Issue #5....texture. The snowplow I bought...and from my very vague 40 year old recollection, the 74 that I bought new and sold within the year....have essentially no texture....smooth.... Steve concurs..."a smooth texture but with some orange peel"

No not really smooth - they had some slight pebbly texture as noted above which Steve is calling an "orange peel", & that was also the case for the factory undercoating on the underbody belly pans with the main body color sprayed over it to get that same "heavy orange peel" or "pebbly" effect. That texture was a bit less than used on the targa tops too, also in a satin to flatish-satin there - not shiny as many are today.

So..... stirthepot.gif



That's my zwei pfennigs during my afternoon break FWIW! beerchug.gif
Tom
///////
porbmw
Hi Tom

Thanks for the notes/reply.

Didn't know about Steve's LE...but I lust after his Sahara Beige....

Will ask him whether he could, at some time, provide some pics, as you've noted...would be very helpful to me, and hopefully others.

Re the 2 sheen issue in the engine compartment. I'm not sure if the difference would arise from extra drying time, etc. I would THINK that the factory painted the 2 areas/pieces, in 2 stages/parts....the grills separate from the lid and body. The grills are completely black, including the underside....and that the factory added the grills on subsequently....

Just a guess.

On all points, pics would be most helpful. It seems to be an area of debate, and very few cars have survived without a repaint of some sort.
Tom_T
Yeah - I was thinking the same thing when I suggested the pix at that few/rare nailed topic to show what was on the unmolested 914s - so that we can overcome our "half-zymers" - where you recall half the sh!t half the time! laugh.gif

He already has a bunch of Sahara pix there - if you haven't looked already, it's worth the reference.

In addition to Sahara - Steve also has the former factory photo 914-6 - Stenger I think it's called (should be a topic on here & 914club about it) - orange with wide black stripes (resto); and what IIRC is another original & pristine low mile 74 LE Cremescicle that Steve sold his Lotus Europa JPS to make room for it!!

I may have misunderstood where the "arms" you mentioned were. I was thinking of the engine lid's cross-arms/braces.

You can also PM to Pat Garvey the O&H moderator & he may have some good originality info, as well as Paul nuenveirzen (sp?) - both are also long time 914ers from back in the day & originality wanks par excellance! biggrin.gif

I just did a repaint of the original Bosch wiper arms for our `88 Westy using Rustoleum & their Satin was a bit too shiny - even when I held it back 24"+ to get a "dusting" flat effect, so I ended up just dusting over their Satin with their Flat to take the sheen down to close to OE.

I think the Wurth Satin Black may be a bit flatter than the Rustoleum stuff.

FYI - also, Wurth used to make a Porsche Exhaust Gray which was perfect & Stoddard/356 NLA used to carry it, but apparently they stopped carrying it, or Wurth stopped making it. So it would be nice if Wurth & some vendors could get that back available again.

I know the 356, 550/718 & early "real" 911/912 guys still really want it, as well as us vintage middie folks! dry.gif

Cheers! beerchug.gif
Tom
///////
Pat Garvey
QUOTE(porbmw @ Apr 9 2014, 04:16 PM) *

I know that, by and large, this has been discussed, here and there....but with some apparent gaps.

I'm going to see if I can summarize what I have garnered, mainly with direction from Steve Gaglione, who owns one of most pristine and unmolested 914s in existence.

My quest started with the engine compartment. I have done a complete bare metal paint on a previously painted car.

The color is done..and is getting wet sanded...but that leaves me to do all of the black....and that led to my contacting Steve.

Issue #1 The 2 uprights in the engine compartment... the ones that house the rubber bumpers on top, upon which the engine lid rests. The uprights are painted body color....until one gets to the top, where they are black.
Question...the top part of the bracket...is it a soft or a hard line, where it meets the upright part of the brace.
Answer...it is a soft line, about 1/16inch down from the flat top. Steve thinks they likely were hand painted, the line is not perfectly straight..he suggests spraying some flat black into a container, then with a 1/4 to 3/8 artist's brush painting it by hand
Question...color...as noted...flat.

Issue #2 Sheen of the engine lid that is below the mesh...Steve believes that it is the same as the uprights...flat.

Issue #3...Sheen of the mesh on the sides and the engine lid. Steve believes it has more of a gloss, perhaps Wurth Satin. I found this particularly interesting...in that it means there are 2 sheens of black paint in that area.

That lead me to the next query.

Issue #4....the front and rear valances and rocker panels. I will comment that I recently bought an almost pristine snowplow that appears to be unmolsted, barely used, with factory paint...it has a satin appearance, very little sheen. Steve's car has all factory original paint...he used a Meguiars' Swirl Remover and some Cleaner Wax on them way back in 2003, says they looked great....and not as much sheen as was put onto a 6 (powder coat) semi-gloss of about 65-70%. He concurs that they are closer to a satin than a semi gloss

Issue #5....texture. The snowplow I bought...and from my very vague 40 year old recollection, the 74 that I bought new and sold within the year....have essentially no texture....smooth.... Steve concurs..."a smooth texture but with some orange peel"

So..... stirthepot.gif

Been a little ill lately, but this post caught my attention
I have some input here on the valances and rocker cover.
I've not seen where you reference the year of your 914, but I will assume that it is post '72. If that is the case, then you would NOT have a "snowplow" rear valance.

Now, by "snowplow", I mean the rear valance that allows the exhaust tip to g through the valance, not below it. The attached pic shows a properly restored snowplow.

The finish of the valances and rocker covers (from the factory) were all primed, Body Shutzed (3M) and painted satin black, thru the end of the '72 model year. There were some variations on very early cars.

Body Shutz is still available, in bulk and spray cans (not recommended). Properly applied to a primed panel using the cheaply available 3M gun you can recreate the original finish, followed by Wurth satin. The 3M gun works between 25-35 psi. 30 psi will give you the proper finish - do the panes off the car.

If you REALLY have an unmolested "snowplow" you are sitting a something very rare .

I hate to even think about disagreeing with Steve on your issues 2 and 3 but need some further explanation for each. Remember, as I stated earlier, if your car is post '72, there may be some anomalies.
Pat
porbmw
QUOTE(Pat Garvey @ Apr 13 2014, 05:38 PM) *

QUOTE(porbmw @ Apr 9 2014, 04:16 PM) *

I know that, by and large, this has been discussed, here and there....but with some apparent gaps.

I'm going to see if I can summarize what I have garnered, mainly with direction from Steve Gaglione, who owns one of most pristine and unmolested 914s in existence.

My quest started with the engine compartment. I have done a complete bare metal paint on a previously painted car.

The color is done..and is getting wet sanded...but that leaves me to do all of the black....and that led to my contacting Steve.

Issue #1 The 2 uprights in the engine compartment... the ones that house the rubber bumpers on top, upon which the engine lid rests. The uprights are painted body color....until one gets to the top, where they are black.
Question...the top part of the bracket...is it a soft or a hard line, where it meets the upright part of the brace.
Answer...it is a soft line, about 1/16inch down from the flat top. Steve thinks they likely were hand painted, the line is not perfectly straight..he suggests spraying some flat black into a container, then with a 1/4 to 3/8 artist's brush painting it by hand
Question...color...as noted...flat.

Issue #2 Sheen of the engine lid that is below the mesh...Steve believes that it is the same as the uprights...flat.

Issue #3...Sheen of the mesh on the sides and the engine lid. Steve believes it has more of a gloss, perhaps Wurth Satin. I found this particularly interesting...in that it means there are 2 sheens of black paint in that area.

That lead me to the next query.

Issue #4....the front and rear valances and rocker panels. I will comment that I recently bought an almost pristine snowplow that appears to be unmolsted, barely used, with factory paint...it has a satin appearance, very little sheen. Steve's car has all factory original paint...he used a Meguiars' Swirl Remover and some Cleaner Wax on them way back in 2003, says they looked great....and not as much sheen as was put onto a 6 (powder coat) semi-gloss of about 65-70%. He concurs that they are closer to a satin than a semi gloss

Issue #5....texture. The snowplow I bought...and from my very vague 40 year old recollection, the 74 that I bought new and sold within the year....have essentially no texture....smooth.... Steve concurs..."a smooth texture but with some orange peel"

So..... stirthepot.gif

Been a little ill lately, but this post caught my attention
I have some input here on the valances and rocker cover.
I've not seen where you reference the year of your 914, but I will assume that it is post '72. If that is the case, then you would NOT have a "snowplow" rear valance.

Now, by "snowplow", I mean the rear valance that allows the exhaust tip to g through the valance, not below it. The attached pic shows a properly restored snowplow.

The finish of the valances and rocker covers (from the factory) were all primed, Body Shutzed (3M) and painted satin black, thru the end of the '72 model year. There were some variations on very early cars.

Body Shutz is still available, in bulk and spray cans (not recommended). Properly applied to a primed panel using the cheaply available 3M gun you can recreate the original finish, followed by Wurth satin. The 3M gun works between 25-35 psi. 30 psi will give you the proper finish - do the panes off the car.

If you REALLY have an unmolested "snowplow" you are sitting a something very rare .

I hate to even think about disagreeing with Steve on your issues 2 and 3 but need some further explanation for each. Remember, as I stated earlier, if your car is post '72, there may be some anomalies.
Pat



Hi Pat

Thanks for your input.
Hope you're feeling better.

The snowplow I have is intended for my 70-6er...710. The car came without a rear valance...have had the car almost 10 years, in parts for the last 7 or so, finally coming together....and in the meantime found (on ebay no less) a very clean but not perfect valance.. It was sold by one of these guys that buy lockers, as per Storage Wars...he didn't know what he had.....Pretty sure it is for the 6, the porthole is closer to the end than your photo re the 4 cylinder. Someday when I get the time and grey matter to learn how to post a pic, I'll add it....it may be that the car will be finished, by then.

I'd like to agree wtih the Schutz treatment....but not persuaded.
Would you say that the rocker covers got the same treatment as the valances? I am leaning, more and more, to all 4 panels having the same finish, from the factory, with no "bump" other than orange peel etc.

I know you have had your car a very long time....do you have any parts of the queried areas that are not yet restored...ie...purely original, off the showroom and without any "improvements" /rustproofing or otherwise, from the dealer etc

Thanks again.
Tom_T
porbmw,

The factory finish on all 4 parts for all -4 & -6 models in all years - F & R Valances + L & R Rocker Panels were the same finish (73 & 74 black painted bumpers got the same finish too) - & it's very similar in texture to that on the original targa tops - if a bit less texture on the lower panels.

The bump in Pat's pic is more "pointy" texture than the originals, more along the lines of a rounder-flatter heavy orange peel (about what you'd see in 70's & 80's tract homes with the textured wall paints in ubiquitous Navajo White - from my architectural past).

If I can find or take a good clear pic of mine close up (but they're worn with 11/72 - 5/85 of DD use) - or better yet - get one of my buddy's in VA's - a still original OO 71 -4, & I'll try to post it here later this weekend. I'm 2nd owner since 12/75 & know the original is on there for sure, as well as my buddy Jerry's.

In the meantime, go to the nailed topic in O&H caller "the few, the rare..." which Pat started for just this sort of reference, to see if any of them will blow up enough to see the texture if you click on the posted pix for the full sized ones that pop-out.

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?sho...=101921&st=

If not, maybe try to PM Steve G (smg914) from his pic posts of the Sahara Biege 73 2.0 in there, and he can get a good one off his 21k+/- mi 914!

My buddy is the red one on O&H, but I don't know his "name" on here, since he joined last year much later than when I posted those reference pix of his 914 (it has several dealer installed options/accessories before delivery to Jerry BTW).

Cheers! beerchug.gif
Tom
///////
porbmw
Hi Tom

Thanks for the reply and help.
I'm getting closer to where I think it is at...
The pics on the O & H are helpful...beautiful cars, and give a lot of detail re some of the minor points otherwise untold. Can't say that they help define the valance paint issue, but sure help on a lot of other matters.
I"m not intended to do concours...but want this done "right"...
Again, thanks

Paul
Tom_T
Paul,

With the value of -6's now & growing, you're smart to keep it to OE spec & look, as that's where the best values are - even if you never concours .... but it couldn't hurt to enter a few PCA concours when the resto is fresh just to have that cred to the car's value & quality of the resto!

There is also a website for the 914-6 registry & a shop in Camarillo CA which has done 914s/4&6 - Ed is the owner & he did the #11 - #1 production 914-6 resto, so he may be able to give you a good line on how he finishes them if you look him up & call or email.

http://www.kundensport.net/

http://www.pbase.com/9146gt/the9146gt_celette

Good Luck! beerchug.gif
Tom
///////
Pat Garvey
I had my 72 paint resprayed in 1979. It had been a semi-daily driver/concours car. I friend of mine (Greg Gandee) was also a concours weenie (72 Targa). We went to 3M, the maker of Body Shutz, to get the specifics for both of these cars. We were informed that the material on the F & &side valences was indeed "Shutz" and that it could be replaced with their compounds and spray guns.

We bought the gun and bulk materials do do so, stripped the panels per instruction and primed. The instructions for the shutz indicated that different textures would be performed using different air pressures with the gun, but that the Porsche factory had used 33 psi for the effect in production, but that different results would come from trial and error. We did Greg's 911 first at 33 psi. Too stippled. Back the pressure down to 28 psi for my 914. Perfect. Nice texture, but semi-smooth finish. Still, it wasn't just right. So, while it was still tacky we rubbed all panels down very lightly with kerosene until then texture was sightly orange peeled. t nearly perfectly matched the same panels of another friends' unrestored 71 914.

After about 2 weeks, when the panels were ready t go back onto my 72, I waxed them for protection. No, I didn't use conventional wax. It was Turtle Wax's black vinyl top wax (still have some). Took the wax perfectly, blackened it a bit, wiped off with no residue. Looks great 35 years later.

BTW, I still use this compound (which I suspect is just back shoe polish) today on the roof and lower panels. Good luck finding some.

Amazing what the brain cells conjur up after so many years.
Cuda911
Hey guys, I read through this thread but still can't quite figure out what black paint I need.... I want to touch up the front bumper valence. '74.

Can someone let me know the exact brand, color name/code, etc. of a spray can paint that I should use?

Thanks!
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