You guys have to check out this autocross video. It shows a new electric car at Marina airport (the same place that all of us Bay area guys autocross at). While the electric car is cool, you have to watch the Datsun at the end which is about to roll over...crazy! I am glad that my teener doesn't tip like that.

-Britain

Autocross Video

That looks like the Tango. Wicked fast electric concept that has dual 9" motors. I saw them break an axle at the Woodburn EV drags a few years ago. Last I heard they were trying to put them into production. They say it's narrower than a fully dressed Gullwing. And unlike the Sparrow, it seats two!

(End EV nerd mode)

That was pretty cool and yeah, that datsun! Zoinks!

Not a datsun, young feller, Fiat 850. Had one. Great taildragger! 850cc, 7500rpm, 61hp. $1695 new!

So the wider fiat will roll, but that narrow electric car stays stable?! All I can figure is that it's packed with batteries?

1967 vs 2005. Guess they may have learned a few things

Fiat 850 was swing axle, like an early VW or 356. If you didn't decamber it ALOT it would tuck outside rear wheel under. Wasn't so much of a problem then with the skinny hard tires, but modern compounds are a lot stickier.

Nothing like watching AX videos from 700 yards out, even if it is a pretty cool electric car. Where do the golf clubs fit?

Who was running this event? Lots of different kinds of cars there.

I just saw this electric car at the LA Auto Show. It's called the Tango because it takes two. Get it?? It doesn't tip over because of a very low center of gravity due to big ass batteries close to the ground. Porsche was there with their usual beutiful display. Some great historical photographs and not a single 914 in sight. It's like they don't want to consider the 914 as part of their history.
Cheers, Elliot

QUOTE (Cabasa @ Jan 12 2005, 03:30 PM)

So the wider fiat will roll, but that narrow electric car stays stable?! All I can figure is that it's packed with batteries?

Yup, about 2,000lb worth if I recall correctly. All slung low.

-Ben M.

I'm surprised no one has yet mentioned this car is powered by electronics made by our very own Otmar. He's mentioned on their site as the designer. The prototype they're fooling with now is the T600, is only available in kit form, and costs $85K (yeah, $85,000). 80 mile range, 0-60 in 4 seconds, 1/4 mile in the 12s at 120mph. Top speed of 150mph. They're contracting with Prodrive (UK firm that mostly builds racers, including the current Subaru WRC cars) to build their two production models, the T100 and the T200.

On their site (www.commutercars.com), they talk about cost per mile and how much it's about the same as a Honda Insight at California electricity prices. They neglect to factor in the price difference in the cars, though, which would pay for a LOT of gas in the Honda. Something like 1M miles worth or so...Who are these guys kidding?

QUOTE

On their site (www.commutercars.com), they talk about cost per mile and how much it's about the same as a Honda Insight at California electricity prices. They neglect to factor in the price difference in the cars, though, which would pay for a LOT of gas in the Honda. Something like 1M miles worth or so...Who are these guys kidding?

ah, but what about all the babes you'll be picking up driving a cute little "green" car??? you cannot put a price on that, LOL

QUOTE (Mueller @ Jan 12 2005, 06:31 PM)

QUOTE On their site (www.commutercars.com), they talk about cost per mile and how much it's about the same as a Honda Insight at California electricity prices. They neglect to factor in the price difference in the cars, though, which would pay for a LOT of gas in the Honda. Something like 1M miles worth or so...Who are these guys kidding? ah, but what about all the babes you'll be picking up driving a cute little "green" car??? you cannot put a price on that, LOL

No, no, no...The tZero is the overpriced electric babe magnet. This thing is the overpriced electric tandom golf cart...

QUOTE (lapuwali @ Jan 12 2005, 08:23 PM)

No, no, no...The tZero is the overpriced electric babe magnet.  This thing is the overpriced electric tandom golf cart...

I must disagree about the golf car comment.
I was driving the Tango around Stanford University and it was hard to keep the young babes off of it. It stands out much more than other cars due to the unusual proportions. It also parks anywhere! What a riot that was. We gave a few rides all the while appreciating the callipygous scenery.
The T-Zero is pretty hot too, but much more pricey and lacks the fit and finish of a Tango.

They are all expensive, and will remain so until we can build them in quantity. That's business reality for you.
At least they are fun at the same time.

And yes, the Tango runs my biggest controller, it moves right out...

Oh, and the tZero specs in the pic are over a year old. It now does 0-60 in 3.4 sec and 300 mile range. Lithium batteries make the difference.

QUOTE (Otmar @ Jan 13 2005, 02:07 AM)

Oh, and the tZero specs in the pic are over a year old. It now does 0-60 in 3.4 sec and 300 mile range. Lithium batteries make the difference.

They need to get on the stick then. That was copied from their website last night. The same site that describes in future tense events that will happen in 2002...

QUOTE (lapuwali @ Jan 13 2005, 09:21 AM)

They need to get on the stick then.  That was copied from their website last night.  The same site that describes in future tense events that will happen in 2002...

Yeah, that figures....
They've been pretty busy lately, supplying parts to a number of small Mfgs that are planning to build very quick high end sports cars.
One of them, the Fetish, It's air cooled!

QUOTE (Britain Smith @ Jan 12 2005, 10:58 AM)

You guys have to check out this autocross video. It shows a new electric car at Marina airport (the same place that all of us Bay area guys autocross at). While the electric car is cool, you have to watch the Datsun at the end which is about to roll over...crazy! I am glad that my teener doesn't tip like that. -Britain Autocross Video

Dang my Echo stays flatter than that Fiat! I dont remeber my dads Fiat 850 tipping like that in hard corners when he AX his car in the late 1960's

My point on the who are they kidding thing wasn't so much the price, which I expect to be high, but that they'd actually try to push the economical nature of the thing by bringing up cost per mile figures. Business reality is that any successful product must be marketed well, as well as designed and made well. This thing is NOT economic by any measure, so playing that up is a bad marketing tack to take. The price just totally blows such calculations out the window. Even a gas-slurping, high-maintenance 914 has a vastly lower cost per mile than the Tango when the price of the car is factored in.

The tZero guys, at least, market to the high end supercar crowd, and wisely don't mention economics at all. The fact that their site is so out of date made me think the whole thing was vapor. I'm a bit heartened to hear they're still an ongoing concern. Not that I'll ever have one...What's the price now, anyway? Last I heard it was in the same $80K range as the Tango.

On the poor cornering of the FIAT 850, the comment made earlier about swing axles is the relavant bit here. In such a suspension system, the effect is for the inside wheel to go very positive camber, which levers the diff, and thus the back of the car, upwards. There are various ways to counter this, most of them employed by Formula Vee racers, who are required to use the swing axles from the Beetle donor. The FIAT didn't use any of them, and like the older Triumph Spitfires, suffer very badly from this. The FIAT was stiff enough that levering the diff and body up managed to lever the front wheels up, too. Fix those swing axles and the FIAT would probably handle pretty nicely.

QUOTE (lapuwali @ Jan 13 2005, 04:23 PM)

The FIAT didn't use any of them, and like the older Triumph Spitfires, suffer very badly from this.

I remember seeing a comparison article from some 70s car mag that showed the spitfire to be quicker in the slalom (or some other cornering measure) than the 914.. It's hard to imagine, but I'm guessing it has something to do with the spitfire being about as thick as a tin can. I bet a 914 with modern tires could outhandle a spitfire with modern tires

QUOTE (bondo @ Jan 13 2005, 04:01 PM)

QUOTE (lapuwali @ Jan 13 2005, 04:23 PM) The FIAT didn't use any of them, and like the older Triumph Spitfires, suffer very badly from this. I remember seeing a comparison article from some 70s car mag that showed the spitfire to be quicker in the slalom (or some other cornering measure) than the 914.. It's hard to imagine, but I'm guessing it has something to do with the spitfire being about as thick as a tin can. I bet a 914 with modern tires could outhandle a spitfire with modern tires

The very late Spits used a semi-trailing arm suspension in place of the swing axles. Don't remember when the switch was made. Spits were never my thing. Now, a GT6 you could talk to me about...

The Spit was also pretty light, as were a lot of the Little British Cars, and Triumph had a history of fitting pretty big tires. The TR6 (wretched car) had gigantic tires for the day. The Spit was under 1800lbs, and probably had tires about the same as the 200-300lb heavier 914. I don't doubt that, stock for stock, the cars would be pretty equal in an AX type event. No sensible person runs 165 tires on the 914 now, and few are running at the stock ride height.

Mercedes used swing axles for a long time, too, but they had some magic way of taming them I've never seen diagrammed.

QUOTE (lapuwali @ Jan 13 2005, 03:23 PM)

My point on the who are they kidding thing wasn't so much the price, which I expect to be high, but that they'd actually try to push the economical nature of the thing by bringing up cost per mile figures. Business reality is that any successful product must be marketed well, as well as designed and made well. This thing is NOT economic by any measure, so playing that up is a bad marketing tack to take. The price just totally blows such calculations out the window. Even a gas-slurping, high-maintenance 914 has a vastly lower cost per mile than the Tango when the price of the car is factored in. The tZero guys, at least, market to the high end supercar crowd, and wisely don't mention economics at all. The fact that their site is so out of date made me think the whole thing was vapor. I'm a bit heartened to hear they're still an ongoing concern. Not that I'll ever have one...What's the price now, anyway? Last I heard it was in the same $80K range as the Tango. On the poor cornering of the FIAT 850, the comment made earlier about swing axles is the relavant bit here. In such a suspension system, the effect is for the inside wheel to go very positive camber, which levers the diff, and thus the back of the car, upwards. There are various ways to counter this, most of them employed by Formula Vee racers, who are required to use the swing axles from the Beetle donor. The FIAT didn't use any of them, and like the older Triumph Spitfires, suffer very badly from this. The FIAT was stiff enough that levering the diff and body up managed to lever the front wheels up, too. Fix those swing axles and the FIAT would probably handle pretty nicely.

I have to agree, the price to buy the car has got to be factored in as well. I was talking to a client the ohter day that bought a hibrid car to go back and forth the work. She lives way out in Hemet and drives in to Costa Mesa. The price she paid for that car and the money she still had to spend on gas, didnt make it cost effective at all. Plus the planned obsolecence after 5 to 8 years, you spent more than you would have than buying the lowline Honda Civic. A lot more.