i know we've been through this before, but ...

i'm now actively looking to assemble a front mounted oil-cooler.
what has worked for you? brand? size? thermostat? line-size?

right now, the engine is a warmed up 2056. the car will definately see some track-time during '05.
also, keep in mind that i still plan on putting in a /6 one of these days, either 3.2 or 3.6.
so, i would like to (at least) have the lines the proper size for that already.

what kind of thermostat do you guys run? what brand cooler? what size oil-lines?
what route? ( i would prefer to retain heat, if possible)
don't want to do the under the rocker panel thing. so i think i'm kinda stuck routing through the cabin.
any objections?

how about higher volume oil-pumps? pickup points? return?
i have a oil-filter location sandwich adapter. good or bad?


whatch'ya'all think?
Andy

Currently AN-12 lines thru the heater tubes; Troutman thermostat; huge MazdaComp cooler (very different animal than the RX7 junkyard thing) and custom shrouding. This setup is pretty extreme but we routinely see 100-115°F ambient temps in summer here and at the local tracks so I would rather go a bit toward overkill than fry an engine. Since installing this system I don't think I have ever seen > 200°F oil temps and I tape-off most of the intake unless it is warm outside in order to get some heat into the engine.

The cooler I've got is similar to the large Fluidyne that Brad usually recommends and I would go that route these days as pricing and availability is better. I think there are other coolers that work fine but these two seem to be the largest and best built options IMHO.

I used the Mocal sandwich plate on my previous car and it worked fine.

I'm assuming you are not opposed to cutting holes in the car...any serious cooling system will need significant air intake and outlet openings.

QUOTE (campbellcj @ Jan 15 2005, 08:44 PM)

I'm assuming you are not opposed to cutting holes in the car...any serious cooling system will need significant air intake and outlet openings.

thanks!

no, i'm not. just spend $6k+ on bodywork & paint and i'm already thinking about cutting, welding and reshaping ...

i must be nuts,
Andy

I am all in favour of this line of questioning, as I would like to tackle this mod some time soon.... At least pic up all the peices and be ready for install, as opposed to making my car a jackstand queen over the sacred summer months
Cheers
steve

To give credit where due, my setup was designed/installed by Ottos. I think one reason it is very effective is that the cooler is entirely shrouded in aluminum and installed on a slant (canted towards the back of the car). The intake in the front bumper is around 32"x6" and the ducting is tapered so it rams the air thru the cooler and then down/back towards the ground thru the trunk floor. I'm sure this kind of rig would be fine with a 3.6+

Otto's solution looks great and he has more track experience with a 914-6 than probably anyone else that I know of.
I did mine the same way as the factory, regarding the shroud and how they ran there lines.
Check out http://home.hiwaay.net/~jonlowe/MyGT.html
You can buy the two piece shroud from getty design.
I'm using this shroud and running my AN12 lines the same as the GT.
My lines are steel braided lines inside a heat blanket to keep the heat out of my passenger compartment
I'm using a mocal thermostat but the troutman is more popular.
I'm also using two 4" 12v computer fans under the shroud.
I bought a electric sensor for the fans from pep boys.
They both come on at 200 degrees or manualy by a switch on the dash.
The oil cooler is a setrab unit.
The Mazda RX7 cooler wouldn't fit in the shroud.
I don't know about other coolers.

Mazda RX4 ( older sedan/ dealer available) with #AN12 lines in and out, into a Troutman oil thermostat. Fits nicely under front trunk nose area.The nipples on the cooler need to be mod'd to #AN12, I run the lines in the L rocker panel. The Troutman part uses the OE 911 thermostat in an aluminun housing. A-I-R (fiberglass) makes a 9146 front trunk cooler shroud (GT replica), and ducts the waste air out the 2 lower trunk outlets (remove plates).
Knock out the front nose rubber cap-plugs and trim your front valence for air inlet and your done
I also use this set-up on the '79 930> replacing the factory trombone cooler
Marty

So Andy, you finally gonna cut some vents into your front hood?

QUOTE (Jeroen @ Jan 15 2005, 09:46 PM)

So Andy, you finally gonna cut some vents into your front hood?

ayupp, that's the plan. i can use the extra heat. it's sooooo fucking cold here in CA right now ...




just kidding! (about the cold thing)
Andy

Hi Andy,

On my new car with the 3.6, we're going run the large cooler Brad suggested and a -20 line. The -20 thinking is highly recommended for a 3.6 by Jerry Woods, whose been prepping my engine for the new car. It's probably overkill for the 3.2 and smaller motors....but if you decide to go bigger or run alot of track events maybe it's worth it while you're in there. Just a thought.

I'll be talking with Rich Walton next week scheduling the dry fit of my drivetrain. I'm going to deliver the roller to them sometime the beginning of Feb to run all the plumbing and fit in the power steering. Then we'll pull everthing off and have Scott Yeaman and Brad finish the car prep and Sheridan body kit.

I saw the coolers for the 3.6. They are pretty big!

Bill P.

I'll be right there with you, Andy.

Setrab cooler and a -12 Mocal thermostat.

I want to run the lines in the rocker space out of 3/4" copper pipe with fittings off the ends.

KT

Does anyone know of any race/performance set ups, that vent air under the car? Other than 35 year old 914-6 GT set up.

Trekkor, there are several round bulkhead-pass-thrus in the rocker area, perfect for the tube (which will save $$$ over AN braided) in that area. Grainger, McMaster or other industrial surplus carries nylon covered brackets , handy for hold downs in fab'ing up the twists and turns. Keep the hard lines from vibrating--which will cause leaks in the silver soldered joints
I'm desperate for a canyon run...my six has been up for a month--finishing up new prototype rear puck/disc ebrakes. Oh well , most of our canyons are not driveable now anyhow !
Marty

QUOTE

nylon covered brackets

Yes, very good. I saw some at OSH, too.

KT

Here's a PIC of mine.
It works great for street or AutoX.
I have never had any cooling problems in So Cal with my 3.2
For track or 3.6 motors I would probably go with something like Otto's more modern solution.
I heard the Setrab oil cooler I'm using is not efficient enough for a 3.6

I like this:

QUOTE (trekkor @ Jan 15 2005, 11:01 PM)

I like this:

doesn't work for me....

i can't take my rocker panels off, they're all molded in ...
Andy

QUOTE (SirAndy @ Jan 15 2005, 11:36 PM)

QUOTE (trekkor @ Jan 15 2005, 11:01 PM) I like this: doesn't work for me.... i can't take my rocker panels off, they're all molded in ... Andy

How do you clean behind them??
I think your only option for running the lines will be through the passenger compartment or giving up one of your heater tubes either on the drivers side or the passenger side.

I saw a 914 at Sears last year that had the oil lines snugged up against the inner longs on the passenger side.
They were covered with carpet and could hardly be noticed.

KT

Here's mine for a 3.6:

Mocal oil cooler and thermostat. -16 supply and -12 scavenge.

The venting on this set up is a little controversial, but I can tell you that it does work well.

I've posted my set up bout 30 times so I'll spare ya'll this time.

QUOTE (J P Stein @ Jan 16 2005, 01:08 PM)

I've posted my set up bout 30 times so I'll spare ya'll this time.

Come on .... or a least a link to the Previous posts

QUOTE (Steve @ Jan 16 2005, 07:50 AM)

How do you clean behind them??

pressure washer ...

Andy

very interesting 914rs. it really does work

Andy,

once upon a time I sent you a pic of my black car through the hood. If you want me to try and re-take some shots of it I could.. (but car has a dead motor, a dead tranny, and a smashed fender from christmas where a 2x4 fell on it..) so It won't look too pretty and is very dusty.

anyways... you know I like the through hood Idea for a clear exit. It worked very well for me. I ran lines (I know you can't) under the rockers and even used an aluminum tubing (sorry trekkor I did it in 1990) for part of the run.

I think you'll be fine through the cabin, but in case of an accident or something you really should consider the stainless lines instead of tubing.. Don't want that hot oil spraying on you.

Also, I'd recommend that you add a 2ndary filter into the front trunk. It might save you from ruining the cooler and I found with ours that it was amazing how much particulate could be caught up there.

I ran an earls oil cooler back then. And my front cooler had 3 different air-exits during its life time. #1 was a restrictive under the floor set up. #2 was an open under the floor set up. #3 was the through hood. Each of the progressively less restrictive exits dropped my oil temp noticeably on the same motor and same gauge.

It was due to this lesson that I went the route that I did on my current double front cooler set up. We didn't want a restrictive down exit.. and our fuel tank ate up too much of the floor space so we had to find a straighter shot for the exit air.

The sandwhich adapter is fine, and the one you have most likely has a built in thermostat. When we got to full race we gutted our thermostat and continued to use the sandwhich.

of course you should upgrade the oil pump and go with AN-12 lines. Some of the really big -6 motors would love AN-16, or even AN-20 return, but you don't want to do that with a -4

I learned that volume and lines effect cooling too, and if you flow too much the oil won't have time to cool either.

Is there anyway you can talk with the motor builder. Believe it or not there is a science to this. The builder may be able to tell you the correct flow rates if there are any oiling mods inside. Otherwise just go AN-12

Regarding Coolers... I'm a firm believier in Fluidyne now.
they make a single pass and a double pass model. You can also custom order the cooler with your choice of fittings if you go direct to the factory for it. Hoerr racing is a good source but make sure you clarify if you want certain fittings. That way, if you go AN then the cooler will not need another adapter.

QUOTE (brant @ Jan 16 2005, 01:07 PM)

If you want me to try and re-take some shots of it I could.

yes, pics are always guud!

thanks for all the info ...
Andy

Ok... here are some dark crappy dirty pics.
car is sitting in a falling down shed and yes those are cat prints somehow....

looking quite dirty and neglected, but since I blew the motor last fall I haven't touched the beast.

Hopefully by mid summer I'll have a new motor, possibly a new tranny that I think I'm getting from a member in CA and a fresh coat of wax:

So I went through the hood to maintain temp on it as a race car. We ran production race class and were required that all panels remain the same material as stock.. Thus its a metal hood. It was also the very first thing I ever welded so its not my best work ever.

We cut the hood with a jig saw and then rolled it down the amount we wanted. We cut some side plates out of an old ford pick up hood, and welded them in.

then a little bondo and Viola:

car was also street registered once upon a time, so the air intake is directly behind the lisc plate. 2 screws to pull the plate and open air flow:

Inside the trunk, we took sheet aluminum and folded up a small both to complete the duct work for the cooler to the hood. When the hood is closed it fits fairly tight and almost but not quite water tight. We pulled and got rid of the accusump when we decommisioned it. Still have an aux oil filter and we rigged up a 2nd oil light into the "fasten seat belt light" on the dash.

this sender is 15psi, and its amazing how easy it is to turn that light on even with street tires... but when the accusump was installed you would never turn that light on... at least it was a back up to me to remind me to open the accusump.

Also you can see the relocated battery and plumbing...

oh and we put the spare tire upright on a spacesaver about 15years ago:

duct work from the side:

close up to show shape:

hood shape from the inside with embarassing welds:

thank you sir!

Andy

no problem...

and I still owe you a beer for the green car PPI last year.

I am glad someone finally agrees, exhausting air under the car is not as desirable, as out the hood.

Under the car is not all bad...
Its just that you need to heavily cut into the front trunk to get a very low restriction exhaust..

On my black car I didn't want to hack the whole front trunk out.

and on my orange car I couldn't go through the front trunk in an unrestrictive manner since the fuel cell was taking up all the floor space.

I think a Factory gt style exit is much less work than a hood and doesn't open up all the problems of having water in the trunk etc, on a street set up.

for a race car up is fine though.

But I thought the point of lowering front of car, and using spoiler/splitter was to get down force & reduce air under the car? What air does travel under speeds up to create low pressure area & better down force. How can adding turbulence/more be a good thing?

QUOTE (retrotech @ Jan 17 2005, 05:32 PM)

How can adding turbulence/more be a good thing?

it's usually not, *but* the way our cars are designed, air under the car helps with the engine cooling!
just ask the people that run a monster air-dam, they will all see a significant increase in engine temps.

having said that, i also firmly believe that running the oil-cooler air under the car is counter-productive.
you add more lift plus pre-heated air doesn't cool that well.

i'll vent my oil cooler out the top, through the hood and refrain from running a monster air-dam.
more downforce, better cooling, more heat in the cabin!
Andy

Andy,

Wouldn't the compressed air under car [low pressure] increases air speed, there for pulling more hot air from bottom of engine?
Not tyrying to dispute, just wanting to learn. I have been researching from various race/performance websites. This is what I understand from my research.

QUOTE

monster air-dam

uh huh...

KT

QUOTE (retrotech @ Jan 17 2005, 06:45 PM)

Wouldn't the compressed air under car [low pressure] increases air speed, there for pulling more hot air from bottom of engine?

yes, but in order for that to work, you will *need* air to flow under the car.
if you don't have any air under the car, no turbulence under the engine, no additional cooling ...

the plastic "flaps" that were added on later cars help sucking hot air out from under the engine, but in order for them to work, there has to a some air-flow.
running a big-ass front air-dam will not allow any air under the car and your engine temps go up!

Andy

Really Andy it would be impossible to keep air from under the car. I think you are exagerating the issue, since all race cars use air dams. Any way I am venting through the hood, with a spoiler, maybe splitter. I am confident, I will be better off than none of the above, and stock air flow under the car, when it ran too hot.
What are you using for cooling, air dam, etc?

My "Sweeper Dam"

QUOTE (retrotech @ Jan 17 2005, 11:05 PM)

I think you are exagerating the issue, since all race cars use air dams.

i'm talking 914-4 in particular, not just any racecar.
yes, there will always be *some* air under the car, but with a T4 in a 914 and a air-dam like trekkors, you will see a rise in oiltemps in excess of 40 deg.
which on a hot day can be too much.
a constant air-flow under our cars for engine cooling is part of the design of the car.
a air-dam like trekkors was not.

you are right, most race-cars have big air-dams. but they also have big front mounted oil-coolers.
guess why that is? because their cars are running too hot ...
Andy

My own personal experience..

Once upon a time I ran a flex dam with a very low car.
(this was on the black car but way back before it was even a race car, and before I had a front cooler)

On the highway, my oil temps would go into the red and I'd have to slow way down or stop for a break.

When I switched front spoilers to an LE style and allowed some air to flow under the car the factory cooler was adequate for highway use and my oil temps were manageable...

Pretty much exactly what Andy's talking about.
Yes on a race car you try to keep air out of there and you provide cooling in another matter...

but yes also, that the factory designed the car and the cooling system for some air to flow underneath and if you don't figure out another method to compensate, then you had better go with the factory's method.