Looking to upgrade one of our offices. It has 30 PCs that are about 5 years old.

Everybody runs the same crap.

Microsoft office
Adobe Acrobat
Internet Explorer
Terminal Emulaton programs
Anti-virus software.

Looking at thin-clients as a replacement solution (less IT management of each PC).

How does software licensing work? I know you have to have the terminal server with enough client access licenses for each machine?

What if I wanted to run Microsoft Office? How does licensing work? Do you buy one license (since you only really running one copy?), or do you have to have some sort of user license of each terminal running it?

Same question for other applications.

Anybody with any real world experience?

Thanks.

I have the same questions..

I have 14 terminals here and all of them were bought used from another company and had everything already loaded into them... I need to upgrade myself.

We only run "thin clients" for our accounting databases (JDE and Highland lakes) or for IT stuff like terminal emulation at the company that I am technical lead for IT operations. You might want to look a Small Biz edition server software from Microsoft, they bundle multipul products to run on the same box. Some people love it, other really hate it. I still have just enuff budget for one server=one ap!
As for the licencing, check out this link: cdw software they have some really good info on how this stuff works. I find it really more confusing than nessisary!

I hope that kind of helps...

Thin clients don't really make for any less IT management. One doesn't need to rebuild a workstation that frequently and to do it one usually uses cloning software like Ghost. Thin clients also aren't going to save you any money in software licensing costs.

If you really want to save yourself on IT management costs then switch to Macs if you can.

Can't do Macs.... I got Windows-only apps that I gotta run.

and MACs break the same as any other PC! They are cute and warm and fuzzy until you need to replace a CD drive or power supply!

Now Q, are you wanting to run all of your aps off a single server? Ghost is the way to deploy and really easy!
As for legacy and used products... I don't know how that gray area works. I just know don't let AutoDesk catch you!! They are MEAN!

Anyway, don't worry about thin clients. Just get a good cloning system like Norton Ghost (corporate edition). You build one machine, clone it, and then building subsequent machines takes 15 minutes or so.

On your Windows domain use roaming profiles so that all the users files are stored on the server. Then if a workstation dies, you reclone it, and all the users files are still on the server. You'll need a couple Windows servers in this kind of scenario (one as a primary active directory server and a secondary as a backup).

QUOTE (anthony @ Jan 20 2005, 09:30 PM)

Thin clients don't really make for any less IT management. One doesn't need to rebuild a workstation that frequently and to do it one usually uses cloning software like Ghost. Thin clients also aren't going to save you any money in software licensing costs. If you really want to save yourself on IT management costs then switch to Macs if you can.

i agree with the first part and disagree with the second.

in any event, you won't be making your (IT) life any easier ...
quite the opposite, actually. i found well maintained workstations with their own software copies much less of an headache.
plus, if one goes down, the rest of the office can still work. if your central "software hub" goes down, the whole office gets a day off ...

just my 2 cents ...
Andy

PS: if you *really* want to make your job easier, spent some money on computer training for the users. i found 95% of the time, the problems are due to users not knowing what the hell they're doing.
like the guy that deleted his windows system directory and tried to blame it on microsoft ...
or the IT director (ha!) from wells fargo that spelled his email www.bruce.hislastname@wellsfargo.com and couldn't figure out why people couldn't send him email ... (this is not a joke!)

How does Ghost work in the case of licenses and user keys (i.e., Windows XP license key and Office XP key).

If you use Norton Ghost to duplicate a setup aren't you, in effect, running copies of the same license.

When you go to activate the software you're screwed.

Thin clients offer some advantages, some disadvantages and some things are constant across possible solutions.

On the plus side:
You can use just about anything as a terminal.
Less "desktop" support.
Easy to add new users.
Application control (no one is allowed to install Kazaa or something similar. You can do this in a conventional LAN too, but people dislike it.)
Remote Access is just like being in the office.

On the minus side:
Potential Single Point of Failure (Terminal server's down boss).
Terminal Server Hardware Costs (savings you see on the terminal side are generally used up on the server side).
Potential Performance Issues - depending upon where your applications live, i.e. not on the server that people are running word and excel on.
You need an network engineer to handle "desktop" issues. All of the desktops are now virtual and controled by profiles on the server. You need someone that know these things to be able to manage them.
In the event that the terminal server is down, no one can really work. In a traditional environment, the desktops can still function, even if the server is down.

Similar.
License Costs - regardless of how you use the software (desktop, terminal, etc..) Microsoft still gets their pound of flesh. No free lunch.

There are companies that will host all of your applications and "desktops" in their server farm for a monthly fee. You get a T1 to them and they take care of the rest. Sometimes this can be cost effective, but I would generally look to this as a higher level service.

Hope this helps.

- Joe

I've done it both ways. I'd lean towards PCs as Andy suggested. Use cloaning software to make them all the same. Save ALL files on the network drives that get backed up nightly with offsite storage. Then if someone trashes a PC, you just bring in a spare and they are back in business in 5 minutes.


One of the downsides to Citrix or whatever is that if a server goes down, many are down. Unless you can spring for several servers that pool resourses. It's much more IT intensive. You need trained IT people to make it work good.

You can use ghost to just send the ap packages as well. Norton Ghost

The most frustrating IT problem I encounter EVERY FREAKIN DAY is spyware! If it is Free it is infected!!!
Weather
Clock Sync
Flag Desktop
Bargin Buddy
Hotbar
GATOR
on and on and on! If it was worth a crap your IT person WOULD GET IT!\

Thanks for confirming my suspicions about thin clients.

I have a physician friend who is uhhh... cheap... and he wants to save $ on PCs. He's trying to convince me that you can save money networking an office because "thin client devices are only $199! And you don't have to worry about viruses and stuff"

I told him... sure... you can get an extremely basic thin client device for $199... then add the monitor, the terminal servers, and then the terminal server software and user licenses to drive the clients...

It sounds like managing the network is more complicated then just running individual PCs ona network.

I hated working for cheap clients. Penny-wise, pound foolish as they say.

QUOTE (anthony @ Jan 20 2005, 09:58 PM)

I hated working for cheap clients. Penny-wise, pound foolish as they say.

i have a friend who runs a small law-firm and every time something goes wrong, he calls me in.
their system is a complete mess and all my suggestions are denied because he's a cheap bastard.

but,
he pays big bucks every time i spent time there, paying me, to fix the stuff they screwed up.
don't get his logic, he could have spent the money i have cost him in the last 3 years to buy a state-of-the-art computer system for his office.

Andy

I have NO COMMENT!
I love and adore anybody who works at the firm that employs me!
Just in case!!

QUOTE (Qarl @ Jan 20 2005, 09:53 PM)

Thanks for confirming my suspicions about thin clients. I have a physician friend who is uhhh... cheap... and he wants to save $ on PCs. He's trying to convince me that you can save money networking an office because "thin client devices are only $199! And you don't have to worry about viruses and stuff" I told him... sure... you can get an extremely basic thin client device for $199... then add the monitor, the terminal servers, and then the terminal server software and user licenses to drive the clients... It sounds like managing the network is more complicated then just running individual PCs ona network.

Thin clients become a Total Cost of Ownership (TCO) discussion. In some cases, they can be cost justified, but it assumes that you are spending regularly on the PCs and that you take into account hard and soft costs.

IMO, in most companies with about 30 folks, it is hard to justify a terminal services configuration.

Good luck.

- Joe

Well, being Citrix certified since 1994 and certified in Windows Terminal services, I am not going to say anything except, if it is set up and configured correctly, which I have seldom seen out in the field, it is a great option and works great. Having redundant servers will keep you from having a panic attack when the main server crashes. Like I said before, if you do it right, there isnt that much that can go wrong. I wont even mention how many networks I have gone in to repair that were built by so called professional network engineers that didnt even have DNS setup correctly. Certified also doesnt mean expert. I have 12 years of on the job working in the field on corporate networks to go with my certs. I have seen it all.

Ghost is how a lot of people get around licensing but you also need to have a license for each computer you use it on. Thereby costing you more in the long run for software that only the admins use. Not really cost effective. It has its place however, I use it all the time.

Qarl,

I gotta agree with the experts here. I don't think you are buying much going to a thin client.

However, let's look at some alternatives to lower your licensing costs. I have created some very happy customers by switching them over to Open Office. From their site:

" OpenOffice.org 1.1 gives you everything you'd expect in office software. You can create dynamic documents, analyse data, design eye-catching presentations, produce dramatic illustrations, and open up your databases. You can publish your work in Portable Document Format (.pdf), and release your graphics in Flash (.swf) format - without needing any additional software. OpenOffice.org 1.1 is now available for more users than ever, with support for complex text layout (CTL) languages (such as Thai, Hindi, Arabic, and Hebrew) and vertical writing languages.

If you're used to using other office suites - such as Microsoft Office - you'll be completely at home with OpenOffice.org 1.1. However, as you become used to OpenOffice.org 1.1, you'll start to appreciate the extras that make your life easier. You can of course continue to use your old Microsoft Office files without any problems - and if you need to exchange files with people still using Microsoft Office, that's no problem either. "

So, you could save about $400 per workstation by using OpenOffice versus Microsoft Office Professional. You can also save on Acrobat licenses since OpenOffice provdies for the creation of pdf files already.

It's worth a few minutes to download and check out. I think you'll be impressed.

Hmm I was gonna chime in as Ive BTDT (and still do)... it seemed to much like WORK!!! and thats why I kick around on this board to escape the dreaded paying job.

Sounds like some good information has been given here as a guide.

My .02: At 30 PCs you should probably be thinking about hiring a service to do your installations and maintenance. I am thinking along the lines of what it sounds like Andy and Scott do. You really want to be focused on your core business competency and not screwing around with software, hardware, and networks. Find someone who talks at your level of understanding, doesn't talk down to you when you describe what you are looking for, and you feel comfortable with. Consider IT costs the same as your rent utilities, etc.

QUOTE (rdauenhauer @ Jan 21 2005, 09:04 AM)

Hmm I was gonna chime in as Ive BTDT (and still do)... it seemed to much like WORK!!! and thats why I kick around on this board to escape the dreaded paying job.

Rich, is that a version of the ICA/Citrix family? I set up lots of those years back. Worked pretty dam good too. We were able to keep a bunch of W3.12 machines through the Y2K circus.

QUOTE (scruz914 @ Jan 21 2005, 09:21 AM)

Sounds like some good information has been given here as a guide. My .02: At 30 PCs you should probably be thinking about hiring a service to do your installations and maintenance. I am thinking along the lines of what it sounds like Andy and Scott do. You really want to be focused on your core business competency and not screwing around with software, hardware, and networks. Find someone who talks at your level of understanding, doesn't talk down to you when you describe what you are looking for, and you feel comfortable with. Consider IT costs the same as your rent utilities, etc.

I was doing a favor for a friend setting up a new network for them until the receptionist started treating me like shit. I told him I wasn't making any real money off of it so tell her to shut up. He didn't, I walked. Go find someone else and pay them $$$ to set it up then.

Yep, find someone who you don't "Know" so you can keep things in check. My $.02.

Thin clients dont pay off under 150 workstations.

I did the worlds first full PeopleSoft over Citrix rollout years back when I worked at NEC.
I can tell you vendors have no idea how complex it is and how thin clients show every weakness in software.

But..since you asked...

Licencing is for CONCURRENT useage for most apps.
MS office is the easist to deploy and Citrix / Term services include semi-automated installs for it.

Security is next to none. A savy user could see anyone elses data. A real stupid user can crash the system.
The core of the issue is that each user needs full access to \system32 files on the server.
Lockup whatever toolbars and features you want. As long as so much as an Excel macro can run, its all downhill from there.

Like others have said.
1. Use Ghost.
2. If you can just stop using IE and switch to Firefox. This solve most of the adware issues.
3. Use OWA or another web client instead of Outlook
4. Setup the print server to allow printers to be mapped through the browser.

This way a user could recover from a meltdown and still be productive without intervention.

-Rich Hilgersom

I am an IT admin for a university library and I have over 500 identical computers to maintain. Here is what I do and its easy.

No matter the computer, its nice that they are all the same. Set one up perfectly. Since my users will not install or change software I can lock them down. I use a really cool piece of software called DeepFreeze. This allows me to lock in the computer so that every time it boots it deletes all crap, temp files, and everything. It basically sets the computer to a perfect state at reboot. So no matter how messed up the user leaves it it boots perfectly.

The software installs a partition for the MyDocuments folder so the user can save stuff if needed. Then all the apps use "login to" a 2003 Server system to share databases and to have another location to save stuff. But that is not nessessary for a small cluster, you could use one of the machines to do peer-to-peer file sharing if needed.

Then I use the Ghost software to make a bootable DVD that can quickly clone the machine as many times as I need. YES, all 500 have the exact same install codes and numbers, BUT I have 500 registered "Site License" software agreements with each of my software vendors on file.

The rest is simple. I have reduced IT and computer problem to almost nothing. The system works perfectly and in 5 years it is still going strong with only small mechanical things to fix one or twice a month.

I hope this helps a little,

QUOTE

Consider IT costs the same as your rent utilities, etc.

Many small businesses fail at this. They often can't see past the initial cost of the box and software. In reality it costs up to $2K per year per workstation to keep the network going. With a 30 node Windows network, probably a couple servers, email, and a web site you probably have enough work for a half time person.