I recently posted on a thread about 1964 911s on the Pelican site. A few days ago, a guy PM'd me from the Bird, asking about my '64 911. Technically it would be a M-Y 1965 if sold in the US at that time, but is considered a 1964 (ROW), as it is one of the unique 232 'first year cars' that were made and sold (in 1964). It is also currently registered as a 1964 with the CA DMV.

The guy has been a established member on Pelican since 2006, and is local in the Los Angeles area. I kind of know who he is, although we'e never met or conversed previously. There are pix in my 'Garage' on the Bird, so he's seen the car, although we all know that pix don't tell all ...


His PM starts off with "What a great 64 911... What are your plans with it? Are you going to restore it? Would you consider an offer to sell it? I look forward to hearing from you."

I told him that I do have plans to restore it, but if I were to think about selling it, an offer would have to be in excess of $150K.

He responds with "Thank you for getting back to me. I am still interested in your 64. Is is a numbers matching engine? Does the engine still turn over?"

I replied and provided him with a lot of info about the car, it's originality (matching engine and transaxle, etc.), current condition (roller with drive train removed), and all the repairs that the car needs to be a completely restored specimen.

I didn't hold back any negative info regarding rust repairs (front suspension pan, and other sections of the structure/body), and informed him that I possess a full set of floor pans, suspension pan, inner and outer rocker repair panels, etc. Over the past several years, I've also collected a lot of the rubber parts needed.

He responded again with "Great response. I look forward to talking with you. I am very excited to hear that it is original numbers matching. That is important to me. You can reach me anytime at ###.###.####. I look forward to hearing from you and hope we can do a deal."

My wife thinks I should think seriously about it (well, duh) ...

I haven't priced all the repair work yet, but the metal work, paint and the upholstery would all be done by 'professional' shops ... I can do the mechanical work (drive train), and have shot from the hip that $50K~$75K would be my total investment into the project (dollar-wise), not including my time.

Restored examples have recently sold in the $250K~$300K range on the world-wide market, and appear to continue upward as time marches on.


So I do have a dilemma on my hands. Should I continue on my restoration path, or should I consider selling the project if we can reach an agreement for a cash deal at the price I have in mind

Anybody think I'm nuts if I sell it now ... or want to talk me out of it?

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If you can get $150k, sell it and buy 10 nice 914's...

Or sell it, give your wife half the money and buy seven 914's...

If he is a serious verified cash buyer at $150,000, take the money and run! Seems the choices are no headache for a ton of cash or a ton of headaches for a little more cash...

Having sold a 67 911s in 1991 for $9800 and thinking it was a boat load of money I always have a hard time letting anything go!

That said, I sold a 914-6 not to long ago because I knew I would never do the $50-$70K restoration that the buyer is doing! I am happy to have been a part of the history of the car that will be a show piece in another country.

I know how much I am willing to spend and decided that if I find someone who is going to take it to the top then that is enough satisfaction for me!

Now I drive a converted 75-6 with a 3.0L and I can dump a bunch of money into it for me not because it is a concours car!

Restore and KEEP.

I would be asking myself what i would do with a $250k car?

^^^^ What about Option #3?: Let the car continue to sit, and maybe sell it for a ton more a few years from now.

If you don't particularly need the cash now, and don't need the garage space to be more productive, I'd choose Option #3. Probably a pretty good investment strategy IMHO.

I feel like i know the guy who made the offer, Then again, i could be wrong....

If you don't need the $, then keep it and start the restoration.

Just one man's opinion, but if it were mine and I got my asking price, I would sell it and buy another unique Pcar such as an 89 speedster or another specialty car. Hell, I think I might even buy the 50th anniversary car and just enjoy driving it. Only keep it if you have the money and time to restore it properly, only to have some Axxhole open his door and ding it the first time you take it out. Life is too short to have a car of that value just sitting in the garage and not enjoy driving it. We only have so many days on this earth and once they are gone, you can't get them back. Just my 2 cents. BTW, $150k gives you enough money to buy a really nice 356 or another car and have someone else restore it.

I guess it depends what your thinking is. Do you think you'd ever regret not selling it right now for $150K?

The only scenarios I can see that would result in that are if the resto puts you under water, or the early 911 bubble bursts.

Sounds like you have the parts/skills to ensure the first doesn't happen, and while the bubble may burst of all the early 911 models your car will still be up there with the rare/desirable ones.

Oh, or scenario number 3, alien invasion. But think of the fun you'll have escaping from them in a 64 911

Have you checked in on the early 911s board? $150k is practically giving that car away if its a 232 car. Post your question over than and see what it's really worth, bet it starts with a 2 at least.

Get a good evaluation of the car from more than one qualified source to find out what it is really worth. Check possible interested buyers in Europe. Sell to the highest bidder. Then take the money and run. You aint' gettin' any younger. Good luck Mark.

Just dangle that bait in the waters at early911sregistry.org and see what the Europeans would offer with their currency advantage. $150K is pennies for a true 901 car.

I gotta agree with the last four posters, especially the last two regarding price. If you're ready to sell, that's good advice.

From my perspective, time is the number one commodity. You cant replace it. Consider how much of it you'd need to complete the car, versus what it would be worth. Is a 911 so valuable from a driving/owning experience that it can't be substituted? (You already know the answer to that).

The photos show me a very restorable vehicle. I'd fish for the best solid cash deal, take the dough, take a vacation, spend a little on the wife , have a nice chunk put away, and clear up a little garage space.

That's only if you're ready to sell...

A lot of people want to be part of the 232 club. Who says $150k is the limit. I would do more research before I let go at that price. Personally, I would sell in current condition rather than take the chance at a higher price after putting out 70-100k. But you need to get this car in front of the right people before you make any decisions about price. Congrats on your dilemma.


The current offer might have a buyer lined up to pay $250. Who knows.

If it is truly a 901 car, it is in Rare Company.

Here is a thread on the Early S forum about 1.
Check it out.

http://www.early911sregistry.org/forums/sh...;highlight=1964

Reality Check...
If it is one of the Ultra Rare.. Post it on the S Forum and see what kind of offers it generates.
Unless you have EXTREMELY Deep Pockets, let someone else fund the restoration. A car like that deserves a World Class Shop working on it..

What would you do with a car worth that much ?
Besides Worry about something happening to it..

Take the Big Payday and move it on... Research heavily first....
Just my 2 cents.

I agree that the car deserves world class shop attention, but if you can do the drive tarain and get it somewhat running I think it may be worth a few more pennies.
But I think you should keep it for a while and preserve it, take extraordinaire care of it and keep it in the family for the next 50 years until Porsche has their 100th aneversary. The market would be at its highest then.

I agree....if it's truly one of the originals sell it and move on. This bubble will burst....it always has and always will. You don't want to be halfway through a true concours level restoration (which will be over $100K) and watch the market collapse.

I don't think it will. 50 years from now the early 911's will be as appealing to the people around then as a Model T is to most of us now. Cool to look at but so removed from our modern world you won't have any interest owning one.

If he's jumping at the 150, he knows it's worth much more.
If you decide to sell you need to really "offer" it up.
Also, Sometimes owning an expensive car is a PITA.
If you restore it and its worth 250+ where are you going to drive it? Cars and coffee?
You will be afraid to leave it out of your sight. And your Insurance Premiums will be way up there.

Sometimes a bird in the hand is better than two in the bush.

My bet is he plans to flip it for a profit.

I am no expert but I agree with several of the ideas suggested here - Shop the car, do it now, take the cash, this bubble will burst.

Part of the appeal to the high end collector is doing the restore. They'll do it and gladly pay the bucks for the pleasure. I think fewer just pay the big bucks for a restored car.

Shop the car, do it now, take the cash, this bubble will burst.

I was wondering when this would happen. You have a real gem there. Gotta figure some VERY important people walked around that car and personally made sure it went together well.

The question is...how attached are you to it? It's one of the first 232 of the longest running, most recognizable sports car made. It's gonna be worth plenty in the future. You don't have to do anything with it.

I agree with Mark H., the guy probably has a customer in mind to flip it to. It's worth more. Bulitt is right, if you're ready to sell, "offer" it and see what happens when a few people get wind of it. You're in the drivers seat on this one and you can only sell it once.

sell the car for the right price mark. do you have the funds (cash only) to make the car right without going into debt? sell, sell, sell…pay of the mortgage, get as far from consumer debt as you possibly can. probably not a very popular opinion. it's just a car...

So let's say this little flirtation gets you moving on the car and you spend a few years and lots of $$ restoring the car. Now you're all done.....what are you going to do with it, buy an enclosed trailer and schlep it around to shows? You'll have organizers beating down your door to attend their show. Sell it? It will be harder to part with when it's done than it is now. I'm betting you're not going to spend much time driving that $250k jewel to Cars and Coffee; or canyon carving with the 914 guys.

You're at that junction in life you've been waiting for. You'll always be part of the chain of title on an historic vehicle and you'll have stories to tell regardless of whether you still own it. You get to choose who gets the car and, to a certain degree, what happens to it. You're in the driver's seat...enjoy the ride!

I would entertain offers and sell to the highest bidder. That's a lot of money for an old 911

You'll be too scared to drive a 250-300k car once restored, let someone with deep pockets worry about that.

As some have suggested, we all are not getting any younger. If it were me, I would sell and move on. As it is, you've got way too many " projects".

Don't sell the car for $150k. 911 values are still rising and they are still undervalued. You have one person interested in it and you haven't even advertised it as for sale.

If you really want the money, then advertise it for stupid money, or wait another 5 years and you will no doubt get more than $150k.

911's are our biggest market right now. People are paying big bucks to restore these cars (the SWB) and then can still sell them for a profit.

Also, these cars are so unique in all there differences from the 66 and up MY. There are many sheet metal pieces that are different from the 66 MY like the front shock towers, front latch panel, and the outer rockers. These are the few that I can think of off the top of my head. I'm sure there's more that I have not seen either.

If these panels need to be replaced on this car, you need to make sure you are getting proper panels.

Good luck

FWIW I agree this market is a huge bubble right now. That said, I also think given the current state the estimates of the car being 250-300,000 when done are low. In the 2 years I have been working on a customers 73 S, I have watched it go from 180-250,000. I have personally seen 4 73 S's sell in the last 2 years for 230-250,000. Yeah, they're the best of the longhoods, but nowhere near as historically significant as a 232. you've got one hell of a lottery ticket there

Wow, very interesting dilemma.

Does a high-dollar, high,-value restoration have to be out-of-pocket???
Seems like the established value of the car, as-is, should be enough to secure a bank loan of $100k that you could then use to make it a restored, numbers matching, $300k car.

Has anybody ever done this? Received a loan w the un-restored car as collateral, then restored the car, enjoyed it for a while while making loan payments, then sold it for profit???

Just curious

If it were me, I'd spend a few months "putting it together" with your drivetrain skills, then sell it as a running, driving example that would benefit from concourse level restoration. Wrench, enjoy, then make some $$$. Make every day count, you only live once

check with YOUR bank and see how well they respond to such a proposal. i seriously doubt it unless you'll be willing to put up a HOUSE or REAL PROPERTY with enough equity to cover a home equity loan or personal line of credit. sorry, but faulty thinking to me. car bubbles, like housing and ones of soap all burst eventually. mark has had interest in the car via the INTERNET.

I bought the car 37 years ago for ... get this, $2700. My friend Randy Montoya at Automeister (not motormeister), coached me on the purchase. Remember, the internet wasn't around then (at least not for the public at large) and there wasn't a lot of info available regarding the '232', however, Randy knew it was an early car and told me beforehand that I should restore it.

After I purchased it and drove it home, down the twisty Pasadena freeway to Redondo Beach, it spent a little time up on jack stands in my garage. I rebuilt the carbs, adjusted the valves, fluid change and a tune-up (about $50. in parts at the time), as a tune-up at a Porsche dealership was right about the cost of a VW motor rebuild - $300)

I drove it on and off for a couple years, but one day, a shifting fork let go and it wouldn't shift out of 2nd anymore. I pulled the drive train and Randy rebuilt the transaxle. Since the engine was running pretty strong, but leaked oil from the cooler and return tubes, Randy recommended that I dismantle the motor, reseal it and have the top end done while it was all out of the car. I dismantled to a short block, tagged the P&Cs, heads, rockers and camshafts and placed them in crates. This is still the status of the drive train.


A few rocky romances (I was a young, handsome, debonaire guitarist in a couple of bands at the time) and a couple of job changes caused the project to come to a halt. The car and crates moved to several storage locations over the years (all indoors I'm happy to say). Luckily, I also had a '67 VW bus (that I now regret selling for a mere $2500.), so moving my belongings wasn't as bad as it sounds, but I've always had the intention to complete the restoration.

I would love to drag the '64 out of my enclosed trailer and drive it onto the grass at Monterrey, who wouldn't? ... and I wake up in the mornings sometimes with that "when the fuch am I gonna find the time to get this all done, the right way?"


Time is the real issue, as some of you have mentioned. I really don't know where the last 30 years went, but here I am today, 60 and retired ... and I do have the means to fund the project without living on canned beans ... I'm involved in many other activities that cumulatively eat up a lot of my 'free' time.

I already have a network set up to perform the restoration tasks - Dave Kent helped me with the restoration metal panels before he succumbed to cancer, George's guys at EMW would do the machine work, Steve Houge would handle the metal repairs and Fast Eddie, the interior work. Haven't decided on a chrome shop or paint yet. Adrian Gang and Randy are also friends who I can turn to for mechanical advice and help when I run into trouble ... as well as one of our own, Richard (Type 4 Unleashed).


Dianne and I have been discussing this over the past few days, and of course, she thinks I should sell it (wemen) ... and fund my '66 912 and '67 911 projects - cars that I can drive without worrying about idiot drivers every mile on the road. Of course, the value of those are increasing too


Don't worry guys, I won't 'give it away' if I do decide to let her go. I plan to broadcast my 'dilemma' to the 232 Registry email list for additional sage advice - who knows ...
Maybe Jerry Seinfeld wants to own a second one. ... Alois Ruf already owns three of them

I appreciate the suggestions and will seriously consider all the options that are put forth. This isn't going to be easy though ... she is like part of my family after almost 40 years

In that case hand the car to someone you trust and have them finish the car. You can spend your time with the other projects. When the car is done you can take it to a show or two and then decide on if to sell it.

Did the 356 bubble and burst or are the still climbing? Some cars just won't come back down. This is probably one of those.

Restoring the other cars with the '64 money is not a bad idea...was gonna ask about that but noticed you removed some of the details from your signature so I wasn't sure how much you wanted to broadcast... I do remember chatting over PM about your '64 though and recalled how long you've had it and how much you like it. The cool thing is you really can't LOSE money restoring any of the 911/912s. When does that happen ?

356 have bubbled and burst at least twice now. Recently they seem to have leveled out. It's all cyclical in the big collector car market and even in the small sub markets. things get hot until the average guy can't afford it. Then that thing gets hot so the average guy starts buying the next thing, so the first thing cools etc etc etc. Once all the things have gotten hot, we go back to the first thing that got hot since it has cooled the longest.

Shop burns down, transport vehicle crash, theft, restoration mistakes, ect. Never doubt the impossible. It's always possible.

Sell...I could never enjoy driving a car worth that much--would always be worried. Enjoy life and take your wife out to dinner (not Taco Bell) and have fun with your other projects that you could take for a drive!

Yeah, Mark, I'll probably have to take her to Spain for tacos, Italy for Lasagna, Germany for strudel, Holland for cheese and somewhere in the Orient for sushi ... and the UK for under-cooked eggs

I can imagine how you feel when parking your blue car. As it is, we even try to park the old Toyota trucks far out in the parking lot so we don't get door dings, but it almost always happens - some turd pulls up next to us and you can barely slide a bushiness card between us

Dianne could probably tell you some stories about my reactions when I see the damage they've inflicted


Holy S#IT ... you should see some of the responses the 232 guys are sending me.
About a 50/50 split on selling/restoring there too, as well as 3 very interested parties so far (notable guys that I know)


"As you probably know, out of the 232, only 60 know in existence world-wide ..." - (which I knew) ... and out of the 60, only 30 are #s matching - (I didn't know)

"Some restored ones going for 600K (Euros)!" - (I didn't know)

"Running projects have been selling for $400K." - (I didn't know)




"Mark,

I can tell you that these cars have appreciated faster than just about any other in the last 10 years. Mine was a matching numbers 901 that when I bought it ran but needed totally gone through and had to have all new front and rear fenders pans and rockers. I cant tell you what I sold it for due to an agreement I have but I will tell you that I heard that it cost over 200,000 euros to restore it and it is or was being offered for 500,000 dollars. I also sold a 65 factory sunroof car matching numbers 15 years ago for $2500. Still kicking myself!"



"Mark,

I say, in simple terms; Keep it and fix it for the following reasons ;
#1, Your purchase cost in 1977 (37 years ago) is close to $ 0000.00 in 2014 dollars.
#2, You own it now. How much time, effort, drama and resources would it take to locate another and then fix it ?
#3, You have the resources and network to restore it, in place.
#4, You have the passion and love the cars."



"Mark,

Lol
YOU my friend know how to whip up a bunch of grown men into a frenzy!

Once the dust settles and you believe you have REAL offers I would love a chance to buy your car."



I'm waiting on Jerry Seinfeld's reply


This is turning into an interesting little journey ...

Hey, anybody got Jay Leno's phone # handy ??? ...

you better put that car in secure storage. like a VAULT!!

have you thought about insurance? how exactly would your homeowners see it if there was a major catastrophe?

Mark, My friend's brother restores all of Jerry Seinfeld's cars. Send me a PM with your number and I will have him pass it on the Jerry. I can also get word to Magnus Walker through a mutual friend if interested. Sorry have no contact with Jay Leno. Neil

in all fairness, i had no idea about the rarity of the car. wow. `

Thanks, Neil. Sam Cabiglio handles Jerry's stable and is on the 232 distribution, as is Magnus, so they should have received the email

I need to get in touch with Jay for other reasons ... I don't think Elliot likes my jokes anymore



I spent about 35 years in the high-end security electronics industry, Kev ... I can see my cars right now even though they're 5 miles away

Mark,
restore and keep. The only 911 Bubble is if you don't prep the bodywork before painting !
PM sent.
Marty

I'd sure listen to Marty's advice...something tells me it's to be heeded.

That said,[i] were I in your shoes, at your stage in life and with the other Porsches you mention, I'd move the 232 onto the next owner unless it would give YOU untold pleasure to do the kind of things with it you mention re: events. Otherwise, I'd rather sink some of that money into other projects—especially if you've got 1-2 SWB cars that provide the same aesthetic and more utility. And...a 914 (you must be alright )

Of course, one car enthusiast's definition of "utility" is very different to another's. I have no interest in the concours deal, but I have great respect for those who do.

My two cents, and probably worth what it cost you. Cool car, cool story. Would be neat if it stays on this side of the Atlantic, but there are no guarantees, are there?

Whatever you decide to do, and no matter what the market does, you've already won.

pete

Hit up "Road Scholars" also (Ingram collection).

Can I still cruise with you guys if I buy a Beck Spyder with some of the proceeds? I've always wanted one of these too

It's not a real Porsche

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Note to self: Stay away from the Hwy 41/Hwy 46 junction

There's a rolling chassis 550 on e-bay...only $14,500. You could put WHATEVER YOU WANT in that if you sell the '64.

Yeah that car...what a piece of history. The 911 was a new car being released back then so just imagine Ferry, Butzi, etc, scrutinizing the first cars carefully, checking, re-checking with their clip boards and lab coats. And to have matching numbers....wow. It's extremely rare. Glad you have it. I bet the right buyer would pay pretty much whatever you want within reason. But again...if you have the cash and decide you want to do the resto go for it. These are the kinds of dilemmas I would like to have!

Besides.......cash is lighter.


914 has more cool factor right now Mark.

Regarding the fellow interested in your car: if his use of the English language were any less perfect I'd say he sounds like someone who is fishing or it's a scam. I do not know him on the other boards and he is probably the finest upstanding guy in the universe. But he just sounds so formal and willing it just makes me suspicious. I do not mean to impugn his character if I'm way off base.

But then again, I'm originally from NY...we're always thinking people are trying to "get over."

Good luck.

Paul