I am looking around, what other mid engine trannies are out there???

Toyota MR2 , probably easy to get at a junk yard
NSX Not so easy to get
Ferrari , unobtanium

Boxter
914
What else?

I know the MR2 and the NSX are both trying paddle shifting autos...

Just want to find a better solution.

Could a jag tranny or even a 928 tranny fit reasonably well?
How about Heiland (sp) I am not sure if that is even the name, but I have seen them on small openwheel racers...

rich

MR2 is not mid-engine.......it's basicly a traditional* FWD platform moved to the near middle of the vehicle

Almost all of the Audi transmissions would work except for the TT series......the Boxster transmission is an Audi FWD/quattro gearbox from the looks of things.

Pantera gearbox works, there are a few on the list that have them behind chevy V8's.....less work if you and cost if you keep the Ford engine attached to it ......... Expensive and rare.

*engine is turned 90° from normal rear wheel drive applications

I'm sure a 928 transmission could be made to work, but the initial cost and the fabrication might not make it too practical

Pantera - $$$

I think the MR2 is a transverse mount, so it wouldn't work ...

same with the ferrari...at least on the 308 that I helped work on once - pain in the ass!

How about the new elise trans, its a toyota trans modified for the elise, we need to get Quarl to tear his car apart right after he gets it and see what they did to modify the tranny, then we can adapt it for our cars A quick shifting toyota tranny in our cars would ROCK!

From what I have heard, one of the Audi boxes seem to be the best bet for a cheapish trans swap (possible auto swap also), but noboday has done the development yet, probably due to the fact that its cheaper to do what has been done than to try something new.

Rich,
You need to decide on your engine first. KEP tells me they don't have adapters for the boxster so unless you want to use the Boxster engine you will be on your own to design fabricate an adapter. This engine BTW does not clear the rear susp arms. I am using an Audi engine which will mate to the boxster transaxle.

An inexpensive alternative to the boxster is the inline Audi tranny. It bolts up a 911 CV and axle. There is still some fabrication to relocate the cable shifter to the front of the engine.

A very few of the other trannys you mention may be possible but will require some measuring to confirm fit and involve costly fabrication. If you have lot's of $, are very motivated, and have the resources, go for it.

The scales of ecomony will show many transaxles or the fabrication will cost more than your 914...

I used to wonder if the old VW Fox tranny would be a decent swap for a 914. We used to throw VW Foxs away arround here. The windshields alone often surpassed the value of a running car.

Rick

lotus europa

What about a late '80's model front-wheel-drive Subby?

Lotus Europa used a Renault rear-engined gearbox with the R&P flipped. Sound familiar? It was not the best part of the car. The 4-speed was apparently a MUCH better unit than the 5-speed.

The early Soob gearboxes weren't known for their strength.

If all that's being asked after is another gearbox that's cheaper and easier to get than the 914 gearbox, not one that's good for stuffing behind a V8 or whatnot, then I'd consider the Type I gearbox. They're really common, flipping the R&P was done by thousands of Formula Vee racers (also a source of an already developed shifter assembly). They seem to be able to handle 100-150hp in pushing a T4 converted Bug around. No idea how much they cost, but considering how cheap the Bug crowd is (they make us look like big spenders!), I can't think it's all that much. The main downside is it's only a 4-speed. No idea on gearing choices.

Try

http://www.mendeolatransaxles.com/S4S-S5S.php

$10K sequential shifters. For off-road use. Will handle LS-1 power.


Hewland trannies are nice. $$$ too.

QUOTE (lapuwali @ Jan 21 2005, 11:12 AM)

The early Soob gearboxes weren't known for their strength.

niether is the 914 first gear, and early suby tranny have to be a dime a dozen and cheaper to rebuild. when i do scottstoolwenches 914 its going to get an auto tranny either audi or suby, might be a complete suby drive train

it all depends on how my car goes

QUOTE (lapuwali @ Jan 21 2005, 11:12 AM)

Lotus Europa used a Renault rear-engined gearbox with the R&P flipped.  Sound familiar?  It was not the best part of the car.  The 4-speed was apparently a MUCH better unit than the 5-speed.

I think the Lotus Europa box was actually a modified tranny from a front wheel drive Renault with an inline engine/clutch/tatransmission, but I can't actually verify that without checking some of my Lotus books.

When I lived in Europe in the past I used to read some of the British kit car magazines. The Brits made/make some cool kit cars. Some of the more powerful mid-engine designs, like Ford GT and Ferrari replicas, used 5-speed trannies from a large front drive V-6 Renault sedan sold in Europe. I have seen these transmissions for sale in kit car magazines here as well.

QUOTE (Cloudbuster @ Jan 21 2005, 12:13 PM)

Try http://www.mendeolatransaxles.com/S4S-S5S.php $10K sequential shifters. For off-road use. Will handle LS-1 power. Hewland trannies are nice. $$$ too.

my neighbor has a LS6 motor in a sand rail with a mendeola trans

Nearly all Porsche motors will require the starter to hang out the back of the bellhousing. For V8 stuff, and other non-P motors, you can go various ways.

Renualt UN1-013 is a great transaxle, with great V8 ratio's. It is strong, and plenty of adapters are floating around the UK and Australia. Derek Bell (UK) makes some nice up-graded input shafts, etc. This is a popular transaxle for the European GT40 replica crowd. GTD is one of the replica manufacturers that use this trnsaxle. If you can find one from a Renault Turbo II, you're pretty lucky. Otherwise, you can look for the Eagle Medallion's with 5 speed's, but the ratio's will be slightly different (I've got a gear ratio chart somewhere).

The Audi/VW Passat transaxles are becomming more plentiful. 5 speed models are 012, 013, 016, 093 (of course most of these have a Quattro variant as well). I'd suggest the '98 up 012 model, though the ratio's are very similar to the 901. 6 speed is 01E (Euro only in front drive config), with a few early and rare 5 speed variants. FWIW

Andy

QUOTE (maf914 @ Jan 21 2005, 12:29 PM)

QUOTE (lapuwali @ Jan 21 2005, 11:12 AM) Lotus Europa used a Renault rear-engined gearbox with the R&P flipped.  Sound familiar?  It was not the best part of the car.  The 4-speed was apparently a MUCH better unit than the 5-speed. I think the Lotus Europa box was actually a modified tranny from a front wheel drive Renault with an inline engine/clutch/tatransmission, but I can't actually verify that without checking some of my Lotus books. When I lived in Europe in the past I used to read some of the British kit car magazines. The Brits made/make some cool kit cars. Some of the more powerful mid-engine designs, like Ford GT and Ferrari replicas, used 5-speed trannies from a large front drive V-6 Renault sedan sold in Europe. I have seen these transmissions for sale in kit car magazines here as well.

You may very well be correct there. I'd forgotten that most fwd Renaults hung their engines in front of the gearbox like the Audi. I wonder if the fwd gearbox wasn't just a Dauphine gearbox with a flipped R&P, though?

So, Audi/VW tranny is what I am looking for.

I want a tranny that is plentiful to get at junk yards, has some aftermarket support, and can realistically handle 450 hp.

It seems that once I get over 300 hp, i get into a G50 tranny that will cost a fortune to rebuild.

I want a tranny that I can buy several and keep spares around with different gear ratios..

Right now I have like 7 901 trannies, but I may just sell them and get several trannies that can..
A) relialby handle the power
Be able to handle long drawn out burn outs
c) handle drag racing type acceleration
d) possibly an automatic if I need that type of shifting.

A is the most important with B and C being a subset of A

This is not a dream, this is what I want to put in any car...to put all the money into a great motor only to have to baby the tranny seems like a waste of time.

The 928 puts out 300+ in stock trim...and it wont stay stock...I have seen 600HP versions out there.

I am ready to go down the 928 route with my car, but all the effort to build this and baby the tranny is just stupid IMHO...I know it can handle 300HP, but can it handle me with 300HP, I doubt it.

Rich

No mention of the 930 trans? I would think 930 or Pantera would be the way to go for 450 HP. I haven't ever heard of an audi trans handling that much. You don't hear much about G50s in 914s.. maybe they're too long?

QUOTE

The 928 puts out 300+ in stock trim...and it wont stay stock...I have seen 600HP versions out there.

have you priced how expensive it is to hot rod the 928 engine? they are not cheap at all......you might end up being very happy with 300hp

QUOTE

So, Audi/VW tranny is what I am looking for. I want a tranny that is plentiful to get at junk yards, has some aftermarket support, and can realistically handle 450 hp

Rich, What Audi with this tranny "realistically" handles 450hp? I'm planning on Boxster 6 speed S because I know they work with high hp 3.6L...

I understand if you plan to use a cheaper disposable tranny like the 901's and GM V8's.

BTW, which motor are you planning on, 928 5.0?

ZF, it's the only way to fly... it has more than any other, for twice the cost even..

The geometry doesn't even have to change... you can put a big V8 in, and never touch the firewall.

...and for the cost of an all expenses paid vacation for two to Hawaii, you can get a 6th gear..



M

QUOTE (Mueller @ Jan 21 2005, 09:53 AM)

MR2 is not mid-engine.......it's basicly a traditional* FWD platform moved to the near middle of the vehicle

*confused*

how does transverse mounting alter the location of the engine?

QUOTE (Mueller @ Jan 21 2005, 02:42 PM)

QUOTE The 928 puts out 300+ in stock trim...and it wont stay stock...I have seen 600HP versions out there. have you priced how expensive it is to hot rod the 928 engine? they are not cheap at all......you might end up being very happy with 300hp

Supercharger!

Forced induction on the 5.0 liter would easily kill off a 901 tranny.

Rich

QUOTE (MattR @ Jan 21 2005, 03:22 PM)

QUOTE (Mueller @ Jan 21 2005, 09:53 AM) MR2 is not mid-engine.......it's basicly a traditional* FWD platform moved to the near middle of the vehicle *confused* how does transverse mounting alter the location of the engine?

the mr2 is a traversed mounted engine.

Which BTW I think might be a valid swap in for a 914.

Its basically a FWD engine and tranny with the motor mounted sideways (crank is left to right, versus a Type 4 which thecrank is front to rear)
So the engine and tranny are both sideways, flywheel etc are all sideways..

Rich

the engine almost sits on top of the transmission, it it not what we consider mid-engine...

he wants to mate a V8 or similar engine to the transmission, not the easiest task with a transverse transmission as well

QUOTE

Supercharger! Forced induction on the 5.0 liter would easily kill off a 901 tranny. Rich

...go ahead...not too many 928s have had successful superchargers added without blowing the engine first

B&B (a German company) made a 928 targa... was maybe '79...

Looked like a Super-Teener... and ended up with a six-pack of tiny turbos.

=o0


M

Isnt a mid engine car a car in which the engine sits in the middle (defined as being between the axles)?

QUOTE (MattR @ Jan 21 2005, 04:34 PM)

Isnt a mid engine car a car in which the engine sits in the middle (defined as being between the axles)?

look at the location of the axle...it's damn near under the engine

(bottom left hand corner of pic)

here is a better view of the transmission, it's the part in the lower left with the axles sticking out:

Yes, I understand that, but why does that have to do with it being mid engine (versus front engine or rear engine). If its not a mid-engine car, what is it? The engine (cg) definatly doesnt sit in front of the front axles, or behind the rear axles.

By that logic a Ferrari 246 dino isnt mid engine???

No, a Dino is a 'true' mid-engined car.

There is a big difference between sitting just in front of vs just over the axles.


M

The CG of the engine is in front of the axles though. Not as much as a 914, but when you open the lid of a MR2 (my buddy has a mk2), you're definatly look at an engine thats placed in front of the axles.

Would you consider the MR2 a rear engine (sorry for the typo) car? Even though the name means "Mid engine Rear 2 wheel drive"?

I think the point of exclusion of the MR2 trans solution is that it is a transverse engine, with a transverse transmission. The V8s in question are intended for fore-aft installation, not side-side.

I know its not a solution for the 914, Im just disputing the MR2 not being a mid engine car.

QUOTE (MattR @ Jan 21 2005, 07:44 PM)

Would you consider the MR2 a rear wheel drive car?  Even though the name means "Mid engine Rear 2 wheel drive"?

You mean consider it a mid-engined car?

Never.

Lamborghini Muiras have transverse mounted 12s, and until the SA/SV, the transaxle and motor shared oil, and were one unit... not that it's important to this conversation, but that is the only super-duper transverse mounting I know of.... or can think of off the top of this thing I keep what's left of my brain in.

Oh, but the Muira is a mid-engined car... the package is well forward of the rear axles.

Look at the MR2 motor/trans package assembly... the CG is about 3 feet off the ground..


M

Im not disputing z axis CG. I know the car is crap (compared to our treasures ). But check out this picture. I think it explains what Im talking about.



Check out the position of the center of gravity (XY plane) in relation to the position of the struts.

Here's another image:

Draw a line at the rear of the front tires, and another at the front of the rear tires..

That is what I am talking about.




M

This really is just splitting hairs. I've always considered the MR2 to be mid-engined. The engine is behind the seats, but there's a trunk behind it, and you can't reach much of anything in the engine bay from above, only from below. Pretty much like a 914.

By Mike's definition, using a Mini drivetrain would make it mid-engined. The entire Mini gearbox was directly under the crank. The clutch was on the end. But the diff hung out the back, so the complete engine/gearbox was entirely in front of the axles.

If the crank is forward of the diff, it's mid-engined. If the crank is aft of the diff, it's rear-engined. That's my definition...

After studying the pic a little longer... I came up with that same thought... but..

I think the class needs a little more clarification.. like Mid-1, Mid-2...

A true mid-engined car, by definition (I have read) has the passenger compartment, and the powertrain between the axle lines, front-and-rear.

Having a trunk sure makes it tough! I have obsessed enough!


M

QUOTE (redshift @ Jan 21 2005, 03:58 PM)

Draw a line at the rear of the front tires, and another at the front of the rear tires.. That is what I am talking about. M

Why do the tires define the location of the engine? Would putting smaller tires on the car change its engine location? It should be measured from the center of the tire, where the forces are applied.

QUOTE (r_towle @ Jan 21 2005, 02:29 PM)

So, Audi/VW tranny is what I am looking for. I want a tranny that is plentiful to get at junk yards, has some aftermarket support, and can realistically handle 450 hp. It seems that once I get over 300 hp, i get into a G50 tranny that will cost a fortune to rebuild. I want a tranny that I can buy several and keep spares around with different gear ratios.. Right now I have like 7 901 trannies, but I may just sell them and get several trannies that can.. A) relialby handle the power Be able to handle long drawn out burn outs c) handle drag racing type acceleration d) possibly an automatic if I need that type of shifting. A is the most important with B and C being a subset of A This is not a dream, this is what I want to put in any car...to put all the money into a great motor only to have to baby the tranny seems like a waste of time. The 928 puts out 300+ in stock trim...and it wont stay stock...I have seen 600HP versions out there. I am ready to go down the 928 route with my car, but all the effort to build this and baby the tranny is just stupid IMHO...I know it can handle 300HP, but can it handle me with 300HP, I doubt it. Rich

Once you get into "Be able to handle long drawn out burn outs", and 450+HP, the transaxle choices become pretty slim AND expensive. The 930 is a good choice, not hugely expensive, good ratio's, plenty of adapters, needs flipped ring gear (with machining), or run up-side-down (with minor mod's). ZF takes the cost issue to the next level, as does the G50, and so on (Mendeola, Fortin, EMCO, Quaife).

The Audi stuff will very likely never withstand that burn-out thing. The GT40 replica guys are putting 400HP or so thru the 016, but you must be nice to it. That said, you can probably find an ample supply of them in the junk yards for cheap, but I don't see the point. May as well stick with your supply of 901's.

Transaxle longevity depends much on your driving style, and it sounds as if you're looking for throwing some pretty severe pounding at it. No M22's or Top Loader's in this catagory.

Andy

QUOTE (MattR @ Jan 21 2005, 08:07 PM)

QUOTE (redshift @ Jan 21 2005, 03:58 PM) Draw a line at the rear of the front tires, and another at the front of the rear tires.. That is what I am talking about. M Why do the tires define the location of the engine? Would putting smaller tires on the car change its engine location? It should be measured from the center of the tire, where the forces are applied.

I was just saying to section it up, and see that most of the weight to the rear is real close to the rear.




M

QUOTE (redshift @ Jan 21 2005, 04:23 PM)

QUOTE (MattR @ Jan 21 2005, 08:07 PM) QUOTE (redshift @ Jan 21 2005, 03:58 PM) Draw a line at the rear of the front tires, and another at the front of the rear tires.. That is what I am talking about. M Why do the tires define the location of the engine? Would putting smaller tires on the car change its engine location? It should be measured from the center of the tire, where the forces are applied. I was just saying to section it up, and see that most of the weight to the rear is real close to the rear. M

who cares

I still stand by my thoughts on the MR2

I'm not the only one...Road&Track and cars.com thinks the same way:

QUOTE

Current mid-engine vehicles include Porsche’s Boxster and Toyota’s MR2 Spyder — though the latter borders on being rear-engine because its motor is directly over the rear axle.

now back to the original post, I think rich is looking for the holy-grail of transmissions (for us "frugal" 914 owners)

I don't think they is going to be a sub $3k transaxle that's going to handle being abused with 450+ hp

one thing to ponder, the size/type of tire can influence how long the transmission will last....sticky wide tires will cause the transmission to see more stress than skinny or harder tires....

WOW....for a second I thought I was still on jwalter's "Bus 4 speed" thread . Well there you go, how about a beefed up bus tranny?

QUOTE (Special_K @ Jan 21 2005, 07:40 PM)

WOW....for a second I thought I was still on jwalter's "Bus 4 speed" thread . Well there you go, how about a beefed up bus tranny?

I'd look into that for sure....

The Audi tranny comes from the 5000 Turbo Quattro. It seems to be logical choice for us. You will have to design a shift linkage and get custom axels, but it will hold 450+ in out applications.

One thing to remember about a tranny and its capability to handle torque, when you are moving 3000+ lbs worth of car your tranny will be under more stress as you up the horsepower levels. So if you drop the tranny from a 5000 or boxster, etc in a teener and lighten accordingly your tranny's HP tolerance should go up.

Yep, seen lots of v8 sand cars use these...pretty cheap to get a beefed up one even...and the axels are bigger right?

http://www.ranchoperformance.com/transaxles/vw.html

all these ideas and no mention of a 944/951 trans? a 944 trans is pretty tough and a 951 even more so though gearing is slightly higher. The 928 trans is much bigger IIRC. Either way they sit in the rear and have half shafts. Old 924's have "Thing" halfshafts, should be close to length.

QUOTE (cha914 @ Jan 21 2005, 07:00 PM)

Yep, seen lots of v8 sand cars use these...pretty cheap to get a beefed up one even...and the axels are bigger right? http://www.ranchoperformance.com/transaxles/vw.html

Don't forget about the side shift thing, though.