As usual, when I have a question, I come to the experts.

My birthday is June 5th and I should have about 3500.00 saved, and I am ready to start my project of building a strong, reliable, fast 2 litre. In the past I asked questions about adding turbo, building a BIG motor and what I came away with was - anything over 2.2 would not be a reliable car, and adding a turbo definitely would not be reliable.

Well I met two guys this morning, both have 914's, one with a turbo charger, and the other with a 2.5 with 48 webers (talk about a kick _ss ride) and both "claim" they use their cars as daily drivers and have about the same problems anyone else has with stock cars. The guy with 2.5 told me the only problem he has is he needs to adjust the valves on his car more than normal and that he had to add a really big oil cooler. The guy with the turbo to me he has to maintain the pressure of the turbo (forgive me - i dont know the exact terms he was using) but it was no big deal.

While I was not thinking of building anything as big as a 2.5 or adding a turbo, after riding in their cars - what a RUSH! I got back in my little 1.7, and felt like I was in a snail mobile.

So I am seeking the counsel of my friends here at the forum: First off - has anyone had a turbo, and what problems did you have if any? While I appreciate EVERYONES FEEDBACK, I am really looking for someone who has experienced the pro's and cons of owning a turbo powered 914, not just here say. Also, for those that have those really BIG motors out there - what problems do you have - other than you can get 100,000 miles off the motor? And I guess my bigger question is - why cant you get 100,000 miles out of a bigger motor if it was put together properly?

Thank guys - I appreciate the feedback.

Hard question.

It can be done, if it's done right and done right takes a lot of time and money. Your budget is not bad, but it may (will) cost a couple of bucks more.

Turbos have problems with head sealing. I would not recommend a turbo as a first project, it's a lot of work.

That guy's 2.5L uses 102 or 103mm pistons and they are big trouble, stick with 96mm pistons.

If you want big do a 78mmX96mm, Web cam and matching lifters, spend at least $1000 on the heads, etc., etc. Spend the coin on the heads even if you have to settle on a 2056cc (71X96mm). We will help you if your serious.

Any big 4 is going to need a total freshing at about 60K.

This is why some (a lot) guys like the stock FI 2.0L, it's very reliable and fairly easy to work on.

This Turbo 914 seems to have been done well. Also, check out Jake Raby's Web Site if you haven't already seen it.

The only problem with a Jake Raby engine that I can see is that it costs about $6-7K. I think Raby even claims 100K miles longevity for most of his engines, even the more mild 2270s. I think he achieves that by very precise work and by balancing everything.

A 2056 with good head work should be able to be built for under the budget here and it should last. Raby recommends that one procures 1.8L or 2L cylinders and have them bored to 96mm and trued up for a precise fit.

Even Raby says his big 4's are going to need a total freshing at about 60K but that they have gone 100K.

The price for a Raby engine is about right.

The 2056 can be a nice mill for sure.

If your looking for a killer engine get a six, but bring lots 'o' coin!!!

see guys - thats my problem "the 6". I dont have the money to buy a six, but i could sale my car, and along with the money i have been saving + a couple a dollars more, I can buy me a 911. But I love my teener - but I want more power.

I want more power, but I dont want to invest 5k or more into a motor - when for $7500, I could find me a good 911 which will not only give me more power, but more room _im 6"4 220lbs. But - I love my teener.

teener - 911
teener - 911
teener - 911

whats a guy todo?

In regards to the head work: what does spending $1000 on head work accomplish, and how does that equate to power? (sorry for the stupid question )

Most of that grand goes into improving the intake and exhaust flow. Allowing the heads to breathe is where the power comes from.
The biggest detriment to longevity is heat. More power means more heat. This destroys heads. A set of Nickies cylinders (more $$ to spend at LNEngineering.com) is the key to reducing the heat produced by a big bore engine, thereby increasing the lifespan of your engine. A big oil cooler won't be able to do the job by itself, since the heads will still overheat. You can get a Type 4 to produce more than 200 streetable horsepower that will last 100,000 miles, but it won't be cheap.

You asked why high power and reliability don't go together--and you just answered your own question. They can, but not at the price that people are willing to pay. At least, not most 914 people.

"But for that much, I could buy a 911!" Well, yeah--you could. And you could throw a whole lot of money at it and it still wouldn't drive as nicely as a 914. Pick yer poison...

--DD

Power and reliability DO go hand in hand... a 3.0L -six makes nice power and will last forever if well maintianted.

The problem is that most people try and get more power out of an engine that isn't designed for it.

So.. in order to push an engine that was designed to put out 100 HP (your air cooled flat four), you have to start taking things to the extreme (headwork, special alloy P&Cs, aggressive cams, carbs, balancing, etc. All that costs money, and most people don't want to fork out the cash like Davd D.said.

The real question is...

What's the best bang for the buck for your situation?

Get a nice running 2.0L with Fuel Injection. Find something with a documented history and better yet, drive in the car, before it is removed.

Install the European P&Cs (higher compression) or the larger 96mm pistons (to make it a 2056), tweek the FI, install stainless heater boxes, and a bettter muffler (Bursch or Triad) and you can get 100 to 105 HP which feels awesome. If you are driving a 1.7 or 1.8, you WILL notice the difference. Plus, you'll get good gas mileage.

Learn to work on the car and maybe upgrade the master cylinder and brake lines.

Play with the suspension and learn to DRIVE the car.

Whatever you do, don't stick any American iron in that baby, or don't try and put a rice engine in it.

Keep it German!

Go find someone one ( a club member perhaps???) that has an D-Jet 2.0 and drive their car. I think you'll find that, while not a turbo or a 2.5, it will have a nice power band and be really pleasant to drive. And it will start and continue to run for a long time.

Build yourself a nice 2056 as others have said. Unless you have/want to spend the $$$ and all of the issues associated with that decision.

World of difference between a 1.7 and a 2.0l. A 2.0L has plenty of power to get you into trouble. Need more go with a 2056 and head work and the 110-115 hp will bring a smile to your face everytime you drive. You are talking $3500 to build that one or the 2.0L unless you find a good used one.
Then tires and suspension are needed to go with that zoomy 2.0l to handle better.
This is the road I found myself going down!

A $7500 911 is the same way, you always want to improve it except it cost even more money than a 914.
Geoff

This is why i love this forum - you guys are awesome!!!!!!!! No B.S. - well most of the time!

And what kind of 911 are you going to get for $7500? Your not going to get a great one. You might get a nice daily driver with a 2.4 for that much but it will have less than 150hp and you'll want more. $7500 will get you a thrasher SC with 180hp but do you want to buy a thrasher that could potentially need some expensive repairs. Remember that a full rebuild on a 911 costs more than a cherry '73-74 914 2.0L.

All great answers.. (I expect nothing less from the group)

Now.. you didnt tell us how much money that guy with the turbo 914 or the guy with the 2.5 have in their engines. I promise it is more than 3500$.

And.. why is it.. we havent heard about this Tubro 914 ?? Did you see the car or ride in it ?

I base these tough decision making plans on RESALE value. I damn near keep nothing...so why build a Turbo or a big bore car that I cant get half back on my investment.

I say: buy a decent factory 6 that needs some minor work. You should be able to buy a factory 6 in the 10-12k range running and driving with a 2.2-2.4 engine and it will hold its 10-12k value.

B

B, He thinks he can get a good 911 for $7500. Yeah, then pour in another 5k for the engine rebuild and another 3k for paint.
Geoff

This one just sold for $14,000. Was only up for a couple of hours. 2.0 six:

Bought it now

hmmm, i thought there were no original black /6 ...
hmmm

Andy

Hey! Jon Watkins finally sold his six! He has been trying for 6 months to sell it on Rennlist.
Geoff

You could get anything you wanted. Cars where typically built one color and then "changed" at the factory. I also thought that the 6's didnt have a color tag with numbers.


B

That's a nice car. Somebody got a deal.

Jon Watkins was on Rennlist for awhile. I remember the car having a carb fire too. Pretty nice car thou. He has/had a 4 too that he had stripped down and repainted, engine rebuilt. Also a ton of 914 posters and trinkets.
Geoff

The sixes had the tag in the forward part of the driver's door jam. It didn't have a chassis number on it, but did have the two digit color code.

-Rusty

Personally, I think your best bet is finding a good condition 2.0 with euro pistons, web cam, and FI. They do pop up from time to time. Buy someone elses engine from a crashed car, or perhaps someone else's project. Peppy and just as fun as a stock 2.0/6, except for the cool /6 sound.

The joy in driving a 914 comes in the handling. Period. Horsepower is second place.


-Rusty

2 or 4 digit?

"still has the original paint code 1010 (black) color" ...

According to Chuxters site the "late" 70's sixes had a paint code of 1010 for Black.
Geoff

My car has a two digit code on the plate: "86" or "84"... I forget which.

-Rusty

What about a 2.5L with 105mm pistons, port & polished, 3 angle valve job, 163/86B webcam, front mount oil cooler.

Are BIG 4s just a bad idea. I'm trying to get more info at the moment.

You really start stretching the case and heads with 105mm P+C's. Head sealing becomes a problem.

I have taken a liking to the 2.3 engines. 78x98. The 98's are easier on the heads and 78mm strokes are pretty easy to make with a core 2.0 71mm crank. It does require custom rods however and custom pistons with the proper wrist pin placement.


B