I was wondering . I've seen a lot of pics of V8 conversions that vented the front mounted radiator by cutting out fairly large holes in the inner fenders to extract the hot air. I don't see any (in most conversions) attempt to reinforce the inner fender well after the holes were cut and was wondering as to why, considering the location of the fwd suspension mounts, and the unibody design of these cars, if that's such a good idea.

The reason I say this is that my '75 parts car has earned the title "parts car" because of a serious crack that developed on the inner fender well (driver's side if that matters), that extends from the trunk floor all the way up to the trunk seal channel just forward of the firewall. Seems to me that if there are sufficient forces exerted on this area to "crack" the inner fender well, you might be asking for trouble cutting holes there.

Show me a picture of the area you are talking about and send me the full size image of your avatar please.

Being a hooter kind of guy, it has my interest. As for the inner fenderwell crack, please forward that picture to me as well as I have already cut mine and if I need to make it stronger, now is the time to find out.

I'll bundle up (friggin' cold here) and do that right now! (Yet another opportunity to try out the new camera )

QUOTE (Special_K @ Jan 22 2005, 01:43 PM)

I'll bundle up (friggin' cold here) and do that right now! (Yet another opportunity to try out the new camera )

Oh, is that girl right there??

QUOTE (skline @ Jan 22 2005, 01:47 PM)

QUOTE (Special_K @ Jan 22 2005, 01:43 PM) I'll bundle up (friggin' cold here) and do that right now!  (Yet another opportunity to try out the new camera ) Oh, is that girl right there??

Don't I wish.....this camera does video too

Okay (brrrrrrrrr), there has been rust working its magic on this area over the past 3-4 years, but the original "crack" is still plainly visible. The thing is, this crack was not there when I got screwed by....I mean purchased the vehicle. It started after about a week of driving. The car was never repainted (original color), and there was no sign of a previous repair.

Sorry Scott.......no "full size" pic, I stole it from the "WARNING: HIGH BANDWIDTH" thread seanery started awhile back.........and this babe's got some "bandwidth" by my calculations

Wierd, I wonder if that crack was caused by a previous crash or rust, there really isn't enough forces put on the area we cut out to do that. maybe if the crack started at the very top of bottom it could travel but we don't cut out that much (we only cut out the middle, not the top or bottom).
On my V8 car I had large cut outs and didn't hurt the car at all and didn't cause any more flex as far as i could tell.

QUOTE (Sammy @ Jan 22 2005, 02:12 PM)

I wonder if that crack was caused by a previous crash

that is a area designed to absorb the impact of a accident. check for evidence of the car being hit on the front on that side.
like replaced, repainted body panels etc.

one easy way to test if the car was hit in the front is to move your full hand over that area of the inner fender and see if you can feel "waves" in the material.
it is supposed to "crumble" on impact and a smaller impact will just slightly deform the fender, but you can feel it with you hand.

that crack is exactly where the fender is supposed to deform.
Andy

No crashes or repairs were evident, and most of the rust seen in the pic has happened over the years of sitting out in the weather (MO's climate is terrible on these cars). The way I see these cars as "everything is connected to everything" structure wise. Loads from the front suspension mounts are transmitted from the trunk floor into the surrounding (supporting) metal......kind of "foot bone connected to the leg bone...".

With all of the converted cars out there, you would think that it there was a problem with strength, we would have heard about it for now. The key is start with a good car and not one that has been seriously bent or rusted. Neither of my V8 cars show any signs of cracking around the venting area. The alternative is vent out of the hood and that causes other problems. (lets rain into the front trunk and lets heat travel over and around the windshield into the passenger compartment.) Maybe that would be a good thing in northern states? I'll keep cutting the fenderwells here in Houston. DLee

Good point David, I haven't heard of any problems in that area either (with regards to V8 conversions). But even if the metal were weakened by some rust, the crack still illustrates that the inner fenderwells absorb loads from the suspension, so wouldn't it be prudent to "beef up" the area around the opening with doublers or something so it retains some of its original strenght?

Here's how Renegade Hybrids reinforces the cut out area....

Bill P.

I think if I built another V8 car I'd make the fender openings smaller and weld some heavy gauge expanded steel into the openings, like I did here for the front intake:



Granted, this isn't as strong as solid steel but it would add some strength. I don't think you can really make too many assumptions with rusted-out steel though. Just the vibration is probably enough to run cracks through it.

nine14cats -

That looks like it might do the trick. And probably easier than what I was going to suggest.

914GT -

Looks like a pretty significant piece of metal you welded in there, and the mesh can't hurt for sure.

I was thinking something like sandwiching the inner fenderwell with metal (cut from other fenderwells would be easiest) an 1 1/2" or so wide around the perimeter of the opening, and then welding a finer mesh to the outer side of the fenderwell to keep big stuff from entering the trunk area.

dont those fender well cuts let a bunch of crap from the tires fly up inside the "trunk" area? easy access to the brakes though!

QUOTE (nine14cats @ Jan 22 2005, 04:02 PM)

Here's how Renegade Hybrids reinforces the cut out area.... Bill P.

I like that, I think I will do that to mine, never hurts to be safe and better safe than sorry.

QUOTE (mattillac @ Jan 22 2005, 06:15 PM)

dont those fender well cuts let a bunch of crap from the tires fly up inside the "trunk" area? easy access to the brakes though!

Since driving mine (about 1500 miles) the trunk has stayed really clean. Just a few small stones from chip-sealed roads. Probably other parts of the country would be a different story.

One of the reasons I did the front hood exit was because I wanted to reinforce the front trunk area before I cut into the fender wells.

Andrew

Front trunk on new 918 in CAMP.
CCLINDAMPCAMP

Does the renegade radiator fill the space between the fans and the front of the trunk or is that just a piece of aluminum duct work that covers that gap? How thick is that radiator?

aluminum ducting... to force the air to go through the radiator.

Probably 2in thick.

Brett that is a piece of aluminum that takes up the space. I would have to measure the radiator I don't know the thickness??
CCLINWET914

That would be fabulous.

Dumb question from a newbe here.....Why not exhaust the air through the floor of the trunk rather than the wheelwells. I was thinking in terms of slanting the radiator back about 45 degrees, then angle the air down and out of the floor. Use ducting for exiting the air and maybe you could still have some usable trunk.

With a vertical radiator and fenderwell exhaust the balance of the front trunk is unusable due to the hot air, so your spare tire now has to go in the rear trunk which kills any luggage space. But with a floor exit you may be able to maintain enough space for a spare up front.

I do realize that more then likely you would have to add some reinforcement across the floor and the opening. But it just seems that would be better than cutting out the fender wells.

tom...

Brett the Renegade R/D radiator is 2.5 inches thick at the tanks. Double pass with 2 1 inch cores. I belive thats a Ron Simpson/ Fluidyne radiator in Boxstr new yellow car.

Bob

Here's a test fit of my Renegade set up. . .without the top cover.

different view. . .Renegade uses the tubing to strengthen the front end when doing a slope nose mod. Scott had run his car with high HP for many hard driven miles with no structural problems until he converted to the slope nose look. You can do it any way you like, but in the 30+ years of these conversions, the fenderwell exit has been the generally preferred way to go. It's all compromise. I guess there is no perfect change to a design that wasn't meant originally for water cooled running.

QUOTE

Why not exhaust the air through the floor of the trunk rather than the wheelwells.

That's how Jaide designed theirs which may work in some cars but I had to convert to Renegade. My Jaide link may show it.

QUOTE

It's all compromise. I guess there is no perfect change to a design that wasn't meant originally for water cooled running

Here's a V8 conversion that has fenderwell cut outs AND louvers in the hood. The air blowing out of the louvers is really noticable when the car is stopped and the fans off. Kinda like a chimney effect. . . but not enough surface area to handle the heat load alone.

engine shot

That's a great looking car Wayne! Love to see some wider angle shots!

Seems to me that a through-the-hood ducting system (ala Ford GT) would be the way to go for keeping structural integrity, better airflow across the rad particularly at higher speeds, and keep your fuel tank cooler (yeah, I know there's a firewall there, but you think it doesn't transfer heat?). And if ducted, flanged, and sealed properly water intrusion into the front trunk could be nil (or as "nil" as you can get with a 914), and if done with some attention to detail (not half-assed) it would look pretty good. For sure you'd lose that "stock 914 sleeper" look, but if I ever decided to drop a V8 in mine I'd want everyone to know.

Well there's something for Morphenspectra to work on.......radiator outlet ducting.

IM..no 914 V8 drivin'..HO

QUOTE (type47fan @ Jan 23 2005, 03:14 AM)

Here's a V8 conversion that has fenderwell cut outs AND louvers in the hood. The air blowing out of the louvers is really noticable when the car is stopped and the fans off. Kinda like a chimney effect. . . but not enough surface area to handle the heat load alone.

Wayne are both of these 914's yours the one with the radiator and the white and blue cow car. I'd like to see more pictures it looks very nice.

Bob

Last summer in mid 90 temps. I ran my 914 V8 and blocked off the inlet air and outlet vents to see how small I could make them. I found that I didn't need nearly as big of opening as I had cut.
The openings I have cut for my new car are 8x6 inches at the largest point. Its always easier to go bigger than smaller if needed. I need to find a good trunk floor to repair the dealer AC install.

Good eye Bob that is exactly what that is in the new car.
CLINCOOLMEOFF

Picture a 1.5 inch angler iron I ran inside the cut out trunk in front on the the floor. it attached via the front torsion bar tube mounting bolts, which i replaced with loonger ones to pass thru (I drilled out the bottoms of the torsion bar bolt holes to pass long bolts thru) This eleminated torsion bar "floor" flex that was evident when jacking up one corner ot the other of the car, stiffened it considerably, and coost all of less than $10.

dave

QUOTE (BIGKAT_83 @ Jan 23 2005, 04:12 AM)

Wayne are both of these 914's yours the one with the radiator and the white and blue cow car. I'd like to see more pictures it looks very nice. Bob

Thanks, I wish they both were mine! The red one is mine, currently being converted and the white one, called "SPOT"by it's owner, belongs to a good friend of mine. He's currently installing a Mayeur modified 914 transmission with taller gears, billet intermediate plate, etc, etc. As soon as it's back together, I'll take some shots of it for you.

Here's one obvious modification I've done. . . .

Wayne,

where'd ja get the emblem??????????

Pleeeeeez, I must know.

QUOTE (Special_K @ Jan 23 2005, 02:19 AM)

That's a great looking car Wayne! Love to see some wider angle shots! Seems to me that a through-the-hood ducting system (ala Ford GT) would be the way to go for keeping structural integrity, better airflow across the rad particularly at higher speeds, and keep your fuel tank cooler (yeah, I know there's a firewall there, but you think it doesn't transfer heat?). And if ducted, flanged, and sealed properly water intrusion into the front trunk could be nil (or as "nil" as you can get with a 914), and if done with some attention to detail (not half-assed) it would look pretty good. For sure you'd lose that "stock 914 sleeper" look, but if I ever decided to drop a V8 in mine I'd want everyone to know. Well there's something for Morphenspectra to work on.......radiator outlet ducting. IM..no 914 V8 drivin'..HO

through - hoods...check out andy's thread for a through hood look-see:

QUOTE (boxstr @ Jan 22 2005, 10:43 PM)

Front trunk on new 918 in CAMP. CCLINDAMPCAMP

Boxstr_ So this makes 2 V8 cars in the stable. I'm working on my second 914 conversion now and thinking of buying a half finished 928 v8 LT1/OBDII conversion.

Let see more pictures of the yellow car....

There's also this one from a previous thread.....Hmmm, couldn't figure out how to post the pic, blue car w/ black hood; here's the link:
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?act...2&t=17368&st=40

Do you think this will diffuse enough air? I like the look. I thought about a design similar to this for the "styling", but opted for something perhaps more "hood exit" mainstream....plenty of area.

Andy

Another shot of what's inside.


Andy

The Blue/black louvered hood is my car. It is enough exit air, about 30% more area than intake at oil cooler. Here is a picture of previous 914 I owned. It looks very similar to the surround on you opening.

another angle

QUOTE (retrotech @ Jan 24 2005, 01:40 PM)

The Blue/black louvered hood is my car. It is enough exit air, about 30% more area than intake at oil cooler. Here is a picture of previous 914 I owned. It looks very similar to the surround on you opening.

That's amazing! Yes, it does look very similar, you'd think it's a copy........but it's not.

Reason I asked about the flow on your blue/blk car, is that this is just above the headlight mechanism and the inner fender. When I looked at that area, it seemed cramped, so I avoided it. You mention "oil cooler." Is this a V8 car with a radiator? I will look forward to the results you get, as I think the look is very nice; very subtle. Steel louvers?

Andy

QUOTE (retrotech @ Jan 24 2005, 01:41 PM)

another angle

retrotech - That's exactly what I was thinking! I'll bet the airflow through the rad was great going down the road. Is that a "one off", or a kit made by someone?

The NACA style hood on the dark (blue?, black?....POS monitor) car looks like it would flow real well also, but I think that the red cars hood is more aesthetically pleasing.....IMHO.




Edit: The blue car (andy's link) looks pretty sharp as well.....

Neither were V8 cars, both 6's