I've been disassembling my car and getting a better sense of what happened to it before my ownership. I think the car was hit on the left rear corner. It doesn't appear that it crumpled much at all. In fact, the left taillight assembly was re-used (the black plastic on the end is missing a 1 cm piece and there's a crack in the middle of the black plastic on the back). There's also a really bad bondo repair about the diameter of an average hand by the tailight. So I don't think much crumple-type of damage was done. But, that hit must have somehow twisted the chassis by either pushing the left rear down and/or pushing the right rear up. There is a big difference in height left to right when looking at the rear end (like 1 -1.5"). The suspension ear on the right is 4mm higher than the one on the left. The latter might even be within factory spec, no? Also, the distance between the trunk channels on the rear fenders is within spec for the front half, but the back half progressively narrows to being 1.5cm too narrow.

The longs, rockers, firewall and hell hole are shot and the door gaps by the door handles are too big (8-9mm). So, I'm wondering, (aside from the option of scrapping it), do I get the chassis straightened before metal surgery, or after surgery on the main structural parts? I could see the former tearing the car apart, and the latter creating imperfections in the newly repaired work.

PICTURES

I'm not a body guy so I can't answer your specific question. But reading your description I would be asking myself....would it be cheaper( definitely less work) to just get a clean tub. Seem like a lot to repair when there are clean tubs for sale pretty cheap that wouldn't need that level of repair.

I'll take some pics of the specific things I've mentioned and post here when I get a chance. Re a tub, the reason for fixing this one is that it was my very first car and so I'd like to save it (apparently it lived a very hard 12 years before coming to me).

Well that's a different story, taking pictures will help a lot. Then the body guys will be able to give you better information.

Good luck

I would do the straightening first. Repairing structural damage will add rigidity to the chassis that you then have to pull against when straightening.

Case in point, when we had my car on the Celette bench, we weren't able to pull it correctly until we cut the roll cage in several places. It was preventing the chassis from being pulled correctly because it had been welded into the bend tub.

Thanks, SirAndy. I guess if the chassis is held on a frame bench by the pinch welds it probably won't pull apart. As promised, here are the pics to help with diagnosis:

Here is the back view of the car. The floor is sloped so look at the car relative to the bench. The difference is fairly dramatic.

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The car sustained damage on the left rear corner. Here's a pic of the bad bondo repair:

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But the damage appears not to have been too bad in terms of crumpling. Here's a pic of the left rear corner:

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Here's the left rear from underneath (note that the bracket is no longer welded to the fender, but does not appear to have been crumpled).

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Here's what appears to have been a patch put in the left rear corner.

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Although the back view looks like it's about 1.5" out left to right, and they had nearly twice as many suspension shims on the right than the left side, from the trunk crossmember to the firewall the car seems to be out only about 1/4" (higher on the right side). At the firewall it's less than 1/4", but at the suspension ears it's about 1/4". I have the car resting on bars on the bench, in the pics below you can see that it's resting on the bar on the left side and it is not quite resting on the bar on the right side.

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I have two supports for the rear section and have it set a bit higher on the right than the left to try to support it, so I'm not sure how much that is affecting the measurements, if at all. When I had the supports set higher to try to close the door gaps, the gaps did close at the top of the door/rear fender, but the firewall was even further away from the bar. I wasn't comfortable with that so I lowered the supports, which opens up the door gaps 2mm wider than without the support.

You're probably thinking that the f measurement (windshield flange to targa bar is too big. According to my measurements, if anything they're a bit too small (633mm on the left and 635mm on the right compared to a spec of 638mm). Below are some pics of this measurement. The first one is showing the left side so the measurement is to the targa bar:

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The second pic is of the right side so the measurement is to the windshield flange (unless I'm measuring this wrong--please have a look and see if I'm understanding the "flange" correctly.

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So, if I'm measuring correctly, that appears to be good (and the roof lines up and works as it should). But here are the door gaps:

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So, bearing in mind my lack of education in this realm, it seems to me that the right rear needs to be pulled down 1/4". The very back piece (after the trunk crossmember) even more. But it still doesn't make sense to me what is happening with the door gaps. At the fronts they look pretty good, same for top front. But by the door handles they're way too big. It's also interesting that the fenders are wider than the doors. I've assumed that's some kind of shim setting with the doors because it's the same on both sides, but please let me know if it means something more nefarious.

Thoughts?

Here:
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=52631

And more pix here:
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=92489

Putting it on a Celette aside for the moment, do the data provide any useful information about where it's out and why the door gaps are the way they are? Am I understanding the "f" measurement correctly in terms of the windshield flange (i.e., I'm measuring it as the point of the flange where the windshield rubber seal sits)? If so, how can there be such a big gap by the door handles if "f" is in spec (or even too tight)?

For what it is worth - I came up with some wild numbers when I took measurements on mine too. "F" was almost perfect, but, the "X" measurement is off. In fact, so far off that I must not be measuring at the correct points. And my top door gap on the driver's side is very large (which makes no sense given the gaps elsewhere). I checked another car I own and got strange numbers too.

I am watching this thread to see what I can learn in terms of measuring mine to see if the chassis is straight. It seems like there should be a way to determine if the suspension points are square/level, as a starting point.

Steve, did you measure the suspension points in the underbody diagram? The one where you measure from both front points to each rear suspension point should tell you if it's square. I need to redo those ones now that I have it on the bench but have to wait for my helper (aka wifey) to be available. In terms of level, the way I'm doing it is to have it on a bench that's true (my floor isn't level), and measure up from that.

Measuring from the top of the windshield frame is pretty much useless as the frame bends too easy.

You can grab the top corner on either side and easily move it with your hand. In fact, a lot of people grab that edge to pull themselves out of the car and overtime can easily bend that edge down.

Look for reference points that are in areas that are more sturdy. Any place where you would expect a perfect X as a result will do.

I totally meant to reply to your email but I have been in training for three weeks and my brain is mushy. I forgot.

So "Y" and "h" are better locations. Not perfect but better. If these are consistent then "X" and "f" will better check for twist and windshield frame movement. Sir Andy is completely correct about the windshield frame. I use the doors to check panel fit and then measure the upper body as a second point of reference. It's lots of measuring before repairs even start. If the chassis needs pulling a 914 is not like pulling a coupe. Every movement needs to be carefully thought out or the door openings and panel alignment will be an over pulling disaster to try to recover from.

You car is bent. With all the rust you will need to have it set on fixtures on a Celette. I would say it wouldn't be out of the question to have the welding repairs done while in the fixtures.

The platform needs to be repaired and squared before you can start thinking about the welding process as the welding process will lock the car in a bent position when completed. If you pull it after you will be introducing stress that WILL snap welds.

Fixture rental will run approximately $ 85.00 a day plus shipping to get them from the warehouse. approx. $ 250.00. So your looking at around 2k in addition to any other work the chassis needs.

Hope that helps Doug

Rick, thanks so much for getting back to me. I figured you were busy with work. I'm out of town today but will send you an email tomorrow.

BTW: that's fixture rental and shipping. Labor to work the chassis is what it is. The large part is how long the car sits in the fixtures while parts are being changed.

Rick, I'm going to take some good pics of the rust and send to you but will wait until I'm finished dismantling so that you can get as clear of a picture as possible.

In the meantime, I've been thinking, would it make sense to put it on the cellete, pull it into submission, then put it back on my bench and make fixtures/jigs for the rear suspension points and shock towers, then do the metal surgery? That way there would be minimal days needed for renting the fixtures.

As soft as that car is there is no way it could be pulled, then removed from the bench and placed on another bench without the car falling in half. If I were to get involved I wouldn't bother mounting the car without the full expectation that the chassis would be welding while the car sits on the fixtures.

Here's an example why: You have two problems here. The rear of the car is twisted, the longs are rusted. A down force pull and a push up will very likely lead to the rusted chassis to become very weak. Weaker that it is now. As soon as it is released from the fixtures and lifted off it will start to sag. The door opening spread when lifting and close when set back on your fixture.

Once this happens how do you plan on re-establishing data points?

Have you ever heard a car creak and pop during pulling? Now try pulling a rusted car and add a crunching and tearing sound.... Two problems, one solution.

Very interesting, Rick. Makes sense. I've never been around any of this but can only imagine the sounds during pulling. You're giving me a lot to think about. Thanks very much for your help.

I had a local expert take a look this weekend. Setting aside for the moment his conclusion that this car is "not a candidate for restoration," he did have a good idea for how to fix the twist. The rear suspension points differ at the most 1/4" side to side. The twist is almost entirely before the shock towers. So, his idea is to cut-off the back end of the car before the shock towers and replace with a donor. I've seen pics of repairs up to the trunk crossmember, but would this work with a butt weld straight across all the way coming to just behind the shock tower area?

?

I believe that Andy is hinting that it might not be the best idea in the world...

--DD

Sorry, No.

If I ever get started on my video you will very shortly realize how far the damage can and did travel in a unitized chassis.

But for starters. Bolt a bird cage to your work bench. Then lightly push on one of the bars. How many flex and move?

Now push hard enough to bend one of the bars. Now check the bars on the other side of the cage. Are they in the same vertex or now arched from the tension created by the bent bar on the opposite side? Grab the top and twist it right to left. Does the top only move or are the bars twisting all the way to the base?
Same principle.

Cutting off what the eye see's and what you THINK is damaged leaves an unrepairable car in the end. You are talking about a chassis that is measured to 3mm tolerance. Your eye can not detect three thicknesses of a dime in 3'. If you have a noticeable twist you can see with the naked eye the damage traveled well beyond the end of the trunk.

If the guy you talked to is a self proclaimed expert then he is either a good salesman or you misunderstood him entirely.

BTW: I'm no self proclaimed expert but I will be staying at the Comfort Inn tomorrow night.

part it and move on.

Doug posted this is his first car and has sentimental value. What is not worth fixing to some is for others. The problem is overcoming the amount of cash that it will require to make it happen the right way. As we used to say in the shop. You always have the time and money to do it right the second time.

Rick, very wise words as always. If nothing else, I've very much enjoyed learning from your thoughtful and, yes, "expert" replies to my questions. To restore or not to restore is the struggle I'm having. I can't bring myself to part the car out, and there's not much worth parting anyway. I could see spending $20K on it, but that basically gets me a finished shell (probably $12,000 for metal work and panels, $7,500 for body work and painting; plus exchange into CDN and fuel costs to transport it for the work, and I'm not sure if the government would want some tax as well). The car needs everything else too. I was hoping to do almost all of the work myself and believe that, with the excellent information in this forum and the braintrust here, if I had a straight chassis I could do the rust repair and mechanical work myself. But the bent chassis has really buggered me. At this point I'm going to put it into storage and wait for more clarity on what to do with it. I had a lot of fun taking the car apart this summer, but I'm one who feels compelled to put things back together after taking them apart. Now that I know a lot more about these cars, at least I'll be able to make a good assessment of a future 914 purchase, if I ever get another one.

sorry, i missed the first car part of the story. Scotty is working on my first car so i do understand what your thinking. Best of luck with what ever you decide.

Here's my heart felt suggestion. Box it up, Keep the memories, and spend the money on a nice driver level car. If you were willing to spend 20k on your old car you can get a very nice example in that level of car. Too bad you wife dislikes Ravenna. I have enough cars here it is very likely I could talk Sandy into selling her car to you provided you kept it as rust free as it is. I can build her another one. I'd like to see you get into a car and enjoy the memories of your old car rather than regret the day you decided to start on a long trip into the depths of hell holes and twisted metal. Just a thought..

If it has sentimental value, keep it. Just re-purpose it. Make some furniture out of it. The trunks (either) can be made into a (grand)child's bed, front bumper/grilles or rear panel w/ lights make cool Wall Art, the chairs can easily be adapted, Gage pod and gages make a neat desk ornament and so on. These cars never have to really die if someone them.

@ Rick, you're a good guy. No matter what happens, some day we have to meet in person. I'll likely get down to Duluth at some point. Would love to meet and also see the 918.

@76, it's funny, when I brought it out of storage this summer to begin working on it, my father-in-law took one look underneath and suggested that I take it back to the farm, erect a giant pole, and place the car on the pole as a piece of art

If the twist is mainly aft of the shock towers, I'd approach it this way... Make a cut in the trunk floor starting in the side corner a little aft of the tower, running back to the rear, then all the way across the back and up the corner on the other side to the same point. Leave this for the moment and repair the rails, firewall, whatever else in the torsion box. This will fix the door gaps and the 1/4" at the rear suspension mounts. Fixing that 1/4" will probably account for about 1/2" at the rear. Then with the rails secure to the bench, i.e. everything forward of the towers held straight, throw a jack under the low corner and straighten the rear. That slot you cut will develop an overlap on one side and a gap on the other. Trim the overlap and make a shim for the gap, then weld it up again.

Or you could fix it the right way.....

If your not kidding remind me not to buy any car you owned.

OK I'll through my 2 cents in.
The car has sentamental value, but as previously pointed out you will have a mountain of cash and years of labor in this car. I would suggest that you do as Rick suggested and buy a really nice car that is already fixed up, then make your car in to some sort of art. You could cut the front off and make a sofa, or cut one side off and mount it to the wall of your shop. or ... or.... just creat some sort of sculpture (that will help with your welding and mechanical understanding of the car) and give you a cool momento of your first car.

Yes, I agree with the wisdom to not fix it up and that looks like it is likely to be the final decision. I will keep it as my own parts car in case I decide to get another one, and that way any pieces I use will be at least parts of the car living on.

I believe the great Jeremy Clarkson said it best...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CtG7DD0Ufu8

"Or you could fix it the right way...."

They've already rejected cutting off the back and replacing it with a straight one. But just out of curiosity, have you looked at many of the build threads here? I think I've seen every possible combination of cut-it-off, re-fabricate, and weld-it-on. I don't remember seeing many objections...

Doug,

It's not an easy decision, but to fix that you would be replacing so much of the car it would be mostly new anyway. You can still use many of the parts from the shell...shift knob, other interior parts, etc.

And then do something cool like this:

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Not mine, found it on the interweb.

Or this:

Wall Art

I hope you don't take offense. This is flat text and easily misunderstood. I think I'm a lot less frank than the crusty one.
But yes I have. As long as I have been around here with member # 43 I think I've seen a lot of it. I actually have contributed to many of the build threads with advise and even helped personally when I could. I've even talked some guy's off the ledge when they were in over their head and ready to throw in the towel. I've driven hundreds of miles with special tools to lend a hand.

You may not know but I am a former collision/resto shop owner and have a Celette fixture bench used to repair fine German automobiles.

I agree many guy's have cut and replaced sections and parts. But not in the manor in which you described. That is not straightening anything. It's rendering the chassis unrepairable. There is a big difference in cutting out rust damage and replacing the damage with used or new parts, and cutting a bent chassis and scabbing pieces of metal in gaps and calling it a repaired car.

All your suggestion would do is make an unsafe car worse by altering the crush zones and weakening the chassis not to mention building in unpredictable and dangous handling. I think the tech guys would call it bricked.

Shit bricked....

Still flat text aside......

My first car was a 1970 VW Karmann Ghia. I thought I had a rare one because it had 1969 tail lights. Nope, the rear of a 69 was butt welded to the front of a 1970. I took the time to get it on the road, but it never tracked right and chewed through tires. I'm sure it could be done better, but it's a costly risk.

I understand your attachment to the car...but the idea of having parts from it in a better shell doesn't sound too bad.

Good luck with your decision.

Rick;
No offense taken. I was hoping for some additional detail behind your first comment, and your follow up was just that. I have a lot of work ahead of me on my own frame, and I appreciate hearing the "why" behind the decisions that get made- especially from someone who's done it professionally. Thanks for the additional explanation.
Matthew.

bent is bent the only thing ill agree with is its not a good candidate for restoration cutting it apart and welding it back together still doesnt fix the problem. thats just a cosmetic repair behind the doors. if you insist on repairing the car for sentimental reasons it needs to be measured and pulled to get all gaps correct before doing any welding. rick is 100% correct it needs to be locked down, pulled then do long and hell hole repairs before removing it from the fixture

I had a very similar issue. Sentimental value aside, I ended up moving on to another car. The damaged one is still in my shop, mostly taken apart. I will use parts from it and I might even throw some batteries in it and use it as a golf cart on our land. After I finish the other car I bought to replace it.

What did it for me was pulling up the carpet and seeing the longitudinals had wrinkles in them on each side of the car from the hit in the right rear. As Rick said in an earlier post, the impact/damage really travels far in these unibody coupes. Have you pulled up the carpets and looked at the central tub yet? Anyway sounds like you made your decision. My wife suggested cutting it in half and making flower planters for the front yard.

The whole car is disassembled save the cables. There had been some previous repairs in the lower part of the longitudinals at the front (by the front floor sections), but not the rear, so I think it was to address rust. The front clip of the car is in very good shape, so it wouldn't have been to address wrinkling from a front end collision. I'm keeping the car on the bench. Who knows, maybe I'll win the lottery (guess I'll have to start buying tickets).