Howdy all;
About to start a restoration, hoping to do a rolling resto. After looking over some of the threads on prep for repairing longs, I see two things everyone advises:
1) brace the doors
2) get the car off the wheels, i.e. jackstands under the donuts

It looks like the engine is nearly always pulled... Is this a must, or can the longs be repaired with the engine in? If so, is additional support under the engine/trans needed?

Thanks for the input,
M.

Depends on how far back your repairs are going. Unless your repairs extend into the engine bay you won't need need to remove the engine. Apply the bracing as planned so that your gaps don't change. You also don't need to support the engine or tranny. They should already be supported by the engine mount/crossbar and the tranny mounts at the rear. Raising the car off the ground won't change that. Remember to disconnect the battery.


Good luck and let's see some pictures of what you'll be fixing!

I always thought it was good to do it with the engine in place. If the car is on stands, there's a little more weight in the back to keep things stretched out before you weld it.

I could be wrong though. That's just my "2-bit garage engineer" opinion.

I would think it all depends on the amount of rust damage there is. If the hell hole is more like a canyon & the right trailing arm mount is damaged as well, it would probably be easier to repair these areas without the engine in the way.

I'm no expert but have never seen a car that needed long repairs but had a good hell hole. Maybe your lucky but make sure you dig deep into the passenger side of the engine compartment and the passenger suspension console. Good luck!

98% of the time if the long is bad the hell hole is bad. 95% of the time the hell hole and long are bad, the suspensions console and engine mount are bad, you just don't realize it until you get all the paint and undercoating off. 99% of the time the hell hole and longs are bad, the rear floor and rear firewall are bad.

what I'm saying is drop the drivetrain

Jack stands under the donuts is o.k., but not ideal. The whole length of the car really needs to be supported. Use the jackstands, but run a 4x4 from front to back to support the floor pan. This also will help things to settle back to a neutral position if the gaps are off. If I get some time later tonight I'll dig up a couple threads that will scare you straight

It is VERY easy to completely fubar one of these cars if things are not properly braced, and the parts are not replaced correctly. If the inner and outer wheel wells are bad you REALLY need to do some serious bracing to the rear ( trunk ) of the car. I'm going to be working on Mepsteins car in the next month and will be making a frame work for that rear area. I'll post pics when it is in place

I hear you, that's what I see in all the build threads I've looked at. The car I have seems to have a decent hell hole. From what the PO told me, it was in pretty good shape but sat in a barn while he worked on other cars. It looks like it rusted from the bottom up, I assume from sitting over damp ground.

In any case, I'll dig around a little more thoroughly to make sure. Just finished cleaning out the tar, going to clean away the undercoating to see what I'm dealing with.

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Looks like you may benefit from doing your floor pans too. If it was over damp ground that rotted up through the edges, you may end up going all the way around anyways. You can repair the bottom 3" of the inner longs, but you'll need good metal to weld TO. I did the floors and it really wasn't a hard job at all. Just make sure you have everything level before you go hacking away and welding it back together.

I did my pans, and repaired the longs of my last build with the engine in the car.

If you havent had the engine out, then you didnt look hard enough for rust.

Just my $.02

And if you are doing a "resto" then step #1 should be: drop engine and trans.

My car had minimal rust in the longs that needed taking care of but fortunately the hell hole was completely solid, so it's possible you've got nothing else that needs attention.

However, given the damage shown in the pictures I'd go through the entire car really well. I especially recommend checking the rear suspension mounts that usually have plugged up drain holes. You don't want this to happen to you:
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I'm getting ready to attempt something similar. Scotty, is there any particular place you recommend putting the 4x4? I see in threads like Michelko's that he is using a board, but I can't really tell where exactly he's running it. I guess just off the long under the floor pan? Also, is it necessary to support the suspension console with 4x4 in a manner similar to the way he did?

If I'm hijacking the thread I apologize mbseto.

If you're only doing the outer long, then put the 4x4 down the inside of the pinch weld that joins the inner and outer long. If you have to do the inner and outer like it appears the OP is probably going to have to do, well.....that's a whole other bag o' worms

If you have not taken the motor out, it's time to learn.
The first time will take a bit of time.
I am down to about 45 minutes at a slow pace with coffee breaks.
might as well buckle down and learn how to do it....it makes all sorts of stuff easier to do.

Rich is 100% correct, the idea of dropping the engine is the most difficult part of it to overcome. Read up, there's plenty of tutorials, and while the engine's out, you can address the no doubt myriad of oil leaks...

I set mine on3x3 sq.tubing from firewall to firewall just inside of the donuts. it measured out correctly, put in door braces and repaired. measured again as the long and console are repaired, all is good with good door gaps. I chose this way because my first 914 had rotted so much it sagged to the point of the doors not opening, put it into this configuration and it measured out perfectly with good door gaps. guessing from your pictures your hell hole/long are toast and you will need to drop engine/trans to repair.

Believe me, pulling the engine is going to be the easiest part.

Wise words^^^^^

A perfect example is that picture posted by rjames above.
That was my car.

You almost could not have seen that break with the engine in the car.

The PO had no idea it was there....

I appreciate the advice from the more experienced. Cleaned out enough undercoating to see the wisdom of those responses.

Next task will be engine drop...

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The ear is not as bad as the pic above, but this looks worrisome:

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Do you have any rules of thumb for deciding whether to part out or proceed with a restoration?

How much time and money do you have?

If you know how to weld, have the welding equipment, and a lot of time go ahead and fix what you have.

If not, find another project car, put the best parts on the new shell and sell off the extras (that's what I did).

I cannot keep track of Scotty's avatar at all. Not that they aren't cool, its just er cernfusin t me.

One other thing. You will be working under and above the body of the car with the engine quietly removed and tucked away. Make sure that you start out with the car at a comfortable height. You may for example find yourself welding upside down, which I hate (partly because my leather "safety jacket" from goodwill kept catching fire). So the advice of 4 x 4 s is good, and then give safe cribbing or whatever thought to get the height you will need. Working on the longs is generally a long project so to speak. The initial investments pay off.

Just mean

It depends on the idiot. I carried a lot of two British cars out of the garage to the trash in grocery bags. Panel availability is a bit better with some of those. More air than car it would seem. But. I didn't want tmem just destroyed. And I wanted to learn how to weld and form panels with hammer and dolly. I wanted to learn to paint and do the mechanicals. I have a desk job, and wanted more.

If it is the car you want, my suggestion is this may not be the one. If the experience excites you, well there remains the outside chance that it could be worse. Cary 914 has certainly devoted hours as a Dr Frankenstein bringing life to the dead and many other even more spectacular stunts have been pulled recorded here.

On the other hand I visited Scotland and was fortunate enough to visit the tower where the Pythons recorded the famous words: Run away! Run away!

You decide.

I can weld and I trust in my ability to do so. Was asking about rules of thumb, not for this specific car, but just to get an idea of where others draw the line. Are there things you look for where you say I'm just not going to try to fix that?

I've read through the "digging into hell" thread multiple times and the first time I thought man that guy's got guts. Glad I won't have to do that. Then the more I uncover with mine the more I see that looks like that car. Seems intimidating on the one hand, but on the other it provides me with an excellent blow-by-blow with photos of how to fix it. It is a tempting challenge. Just like the precipitous drop at the edge of a high cliff wants to draw you forward.

I notice he used the 4x4 method, but never came back to say how the car turned out in the end. I read through several of scotty b's bracing posts and it makes a lot of sense to me. Which then leads to thoughts of a rotisserie resto.

The decision is mostly made at this point. Just trying to build up some courage. Iceberg pictures aren't helping. :-)

I'm in the same boat you are right now. I've read through michelko's thread several times (and others, like PaintedMan), and I've got my car braced and up with a 4x4 under it like Scotty recommends. I agree it's like standing at the edge of a cliff, and when you fire up that angle grinder and the sparks start a'flyin' you've pretty much taken the leap.

My hell hole sucks, so I know that's got to be repaired. The PO did a repair on the long, but I don't know how well. That's kind of what has me hesitating. Do I just start cutting and let the chips fall where they may?

Good luck!

Buy another 914 that's drivable while you restore the one you have with no time constraints.

Actually, if I had the room and the time that's exactly what I'd do. That way there's no pressure to hurry through repairs. Sometimes I don't want to undertake something that should be done because I hate when the car isn't available to drive.