I had received some questions on what part were used...here is the original post


My cabin heat wasn't that good at 4:00am when I leave for work.
I bought two 3" bilge fans, a three speed switch, 6 2 1/2 PVC couplers, and some hose.
The fans have there feet removed, the couplers shortened a little.
Remove the speaker grills, pull oout the heater hoses. One bushing type coupler goes over the heater flange coming out of the body; fan mounted on top of coupler; then a threaded coupler. Put in new hose; instal three speed switch, reinstall the speakers. Presto ! Its hot as hell!!!
The fans fit perfectly behind the speakers.
Installed the switch in the center console where it is easy to reach...
Toast, I tried the jacket....
Yes, the engine compartment fan is not needed after this install.....
After year of use, I can easily say it heats my 2x -3x faster and it get pretty toasty..

The parts are easily bought at West Marine Hardware and I think the part number is listed further along the post....

great idea. where did you put the switch?

k

I wanted to put it under the dash; the back of the switch has a bulky rheostat-like looking thing, so I couldn't get it in easily.
Plan B: Installed it on left side of center console betweeh clock and voltmeter. It's actually very easy to reach there and not too offi=ensive.
FYI-JC Whitney sells a tubo fan kit for VW's, that where I got the idea.

I have never had a heating issue with teh stock system, for me its not getting sufficient fresh air. I have been thinking of doing something similar to this for the fresh air system...somedays the top just has to stay on...

Same here, during the summer, it just the opposite. I fould a couple of Detman Brake Duct Fans on E-Bay last summer. These things really move air; thinking of rigging one up to pull air from somewher up front.

Sweeeet

So Jim, do you have the stock fan too or are these your only fans?

I've heard of this kind of setup on VW Buses. It is often debated as to whether the fans are made to move already heated air. Can you post your source for the fans and the part number?

Don't have part number/name; go to any boating supply store. Thet sell these fans to remove gasoline fumes from the bilge. I'l stop by loca Marine Store today on way back from swap meat.

The turbo fans are used i conjunction with the rear fan; and not necessary all the time. I use them in the morining; in the afternoon, the rear fan is enough.That why a three speed witch is used; a suppose a dimmer switch could be used too.

The turbo fans are pulling air that is already heading to the front.

Here's a few places you can get them on-line.

http://www.boatus-store.com/webapp/wcs/sto...productId=50052

http://www.amback.com/ProductDetails.aspx?...ProductID=60145

http://shop.torresen.com/shipsstore/shoppi...fc=RULE&sku=240

Would a combination of these work as a replacement for the 'three-lever' system? I've often looked at that and thought there has to be a better way to accomplish the task. I'm only ever driving on warm days, so it would only be an auxilary system.

Maybe have three switches? Defrost - Sides - Lower? Then another that pushes fresh-air in?

Just a thought...

Do yourself a favor and get a battery powered carbon monoxide tester and take a ride with full heat on.

When you add fans that suck air through the heat exchangers (rather than push the air like the stock setup does) you greatly increase the liklihood that you will pull in some exhaust air into the cabin. See, when the air is pushed through the heat exchanger system, any air leaks just allow that warm air to leak out. But when you are trying to suck the warm air through the heating system - now air will be sucked in through any leaks in the system. If you are sucking in any exhaust air - that's bad news.

So get a CO tester and make sure you aren't slowly poisoning yourself!

Demick

Went by the Marine Supply store this am: The fan is an Atwood 3" Blower fan.
Thanks for the heads up on the CO; youv'e got a very good point . What's the best way/tool/tester to do that test ??

Take a trip back to the marine store. Boats, especially old ones are notorious for exhaust leaks. Marine stores have a number of pretty inexpensive testers that just change color when exposed to CO.
Good luck and thanks for the idea on the fans.

Any hardware store has CO testers meant for home use. Just get a battery powered one and you can use it in your car.

Demick

Here's the original post showing the parts I used to boost the heat flow from behind the speakers. Since the post, the fans have worked really good.

QUOTE (jim_hoyland @ Oct 24 2005, 08:01 AM)

Here's the original post showing the parts I used to boost the heat flow from behind the speakers. Since the post, the fans have worked really good.

THanks Jim!

The adaptors on each end were shortened about an inch after this picture was taken; the apdators could be omited and tape used too....

QUOTE (Demick @ Feb 6 2005, 12:28 PM)

Do yourself a favor and get a battery powered carbon monoxide tester and take a ride with full heat on.

If you ask nicely at your friendly neighborhood fire station, they will happily go for a ride with you using one of their CO detectors. You might not even need to leave the parking lot. After getting everything warmed up, I turned the heat on 'full blast' and held engine RPM at 4.5k...within seconds, the CO alarm was sounding, showing a level of 60ppm, just sitting in the parking lot...

so what's the story with that?

I remember in Apollo 13 movie, the doctor guy said anything over 15 was bad....led to blackouts and impared judgement....

which would explain me NOT braking when I saw that huge explorer......



do you have stainless H/Es?

b

QUOTE (bd1308 @ Oct 24 2005, 01:32 PM)

so what's the story with that?

I have several friends who are on the local fire department. They say that at 30ppm they are required to wear their air packs. He said that exposure of 60ppm, if I had the windows up and no other source of fresh air, I'd probably lose concsiousness within 15-20 minutes, suffering from the other symptoms beforehand....

No SSIs yet, I'm searching for a nice set (73/74 style) for a 2.0L

Here's the heater thread...

Thanks,a few options for additional defroster flow-needed here on the "wet coast"! New record for precip-29 out of 31 days in Vancouver.(Insert smiley holding umbrella and wearing wellies!)

I recall that when my 914 was running (ahem, we won't discuss how long ago), the heater system had one squirrel-cage blower mounted in the engine compartment. The blower pulled air across the passenger-side SSI heat exchanger. The blower's output was split and directed into both heat tubes (passenger and driver).

Initially, I was surprised to realize that (because it wasn't plumbed) the driver-side heat exchanger was doing nothing to warm the car. I was briefly tempted to add a second blower motor and have dedicated, isolated heating systems for the driver and passenger. The temptation passed when I considered just how effective the "1/2 heater" system was. I never lacked for heat in the car, even on 40-degree nights, at freeway speeds, with the top off.

My 914 has had a few problems, but lack of heat was never one of them. Can anyone speculate why my system seemed to be more efficient than some of those mentioned in this thread? SSI on my car? Broken OE blower on another car?

Britt, the Apollo 13 guys were having issues with carbon dioxide, not carbon monoxide. Although great enough concentrations of either will kill.

I know the heat coming out of my system will just about melt my shoes, is that bilge fan designed for high operating temperatures? I wouldn't expect it to last to long if not.

QUOTE (porsche914blue @ Feb 1 2006, 03:25 PM)

Britt, the Apollo 13 guys were having issues with carbon dioxide, not carbon monoxide. Although great enough concentrations of either will kill.

yep. your 100% right.

b

All,

Those plastic bilge ventilators have been used before in VWs and Porsches. Somewhere, somebody posted pics of them after they melted. Long before they melt, however, the plastic can start outgassing CO and other nasties.

Solutions:?

Plumb them so they pull in cabin air, route it through the exchangers, and back into the cabin. CO can still get in if you have holes in you heat exchangers, but otherwise, you won't be pulling in the odd exhaust leak. To recirc the air like that, you will have to pop some holes through the firewall.

Another solution in MY list of "Muellers" (a compliment, Mike's a great and talented guy) is to design a tubeaxial blower, all metal, with motor that can take the high temp of pulling in pre-heated air.

I've done the search and as far as I can see, there aren't any like that out there....yet..

Ed: here is the post

Interesting old thread. Has anyone measured the temperature of the heat leaving the heat exchangers? Is it possible to add these just after the flappers? Have one on each side and removing the stock fan would give a cleaner looking enging compartment. Not sure about the cfm of the stock fans and if this would be a gain or loss. Could these fan be disecected and the fan installed in a metal tube?

No reason that it could not but the fan blades are still plastic and the motor needs

to be designed and built to with stand the heat. Build your own.

i always chuckle when i read a statement like that.
while it is true that CO is dangerous and can kill you, it is *NOT* a poison ...

Andy

I've run the turbo fans for about a year and this is what I learned:
1. The fans work way better than the engine compartment blower alone . I seldom use the engine compartment blower any more--just open the flapper valve.
2. I leave for work at 4:15 am, before I've gone a mile, the cabin is warming up on the lowest fan speed.
3. No CO. I know the effects of CO from previous experiences.
4. When run on the slow speed, there is not fan noise
Overall, I found this to make heating more reliable and efficient.

Jim,

Do you have any pictures of the process (mounting) in the car by chance?

No pics Brian,

Next time I'm in there I'll shoot one. possible this week end

Andy, You're comment made me wonder about the definition of poison.

From Webster's dictionary: "Poison: A substance that through its chemical action kills, injures, or impares an organism"

I guess too much of almost anything can become a poison, for example alcohol poisoning.

you die from CO because you suffocate, not because of poisoning ...

the CO is more likely to bond with your red blood cells in your lungs than oxygen. once attached to the blood cell, your body can't do anything with it, so the blood cell just keeps hugging the CO. once most of your blood cells are clogged up with CO, you suffocate ...

deadly, yes. poisonous, no ...
Andy

I'm thinking with the Colo weather this would be ideal. I guess I need to get the H.E. hooked up first.. Thanks Jim..

Carbon Monoxide is posionous. Read some of the many MSDS (material safety data sheet) on CO. lethal dose on rats is 1807 ppm for 4 hrs (LC50) ie 50% of the rats exposed to this dose die. (LC50, stands for Lethal Concentration, for 50% death rate for the given time (four hours)).

Some MSDS's for CO use the word poisoning or poison in the discription. The word Toxic is more often used however. At anyrate is it deadly, much more so than CO2. CO2 was the concern on the Apollo 13 mission. scrubbers were used to remove it from the space craft.

CO (Carbon Monoxide) is what poisons folks that do suicide in their car using a hose from the tailpipe.

CO can also poisons folks in enclosed spaces that have faulty gas heaters (poor exhaust).

older cars produce much more CO than new ones. it is a product of incomplete combustion (not enough O2 to fully oxidize all the carbon into CO2).


CO is also highly flammable, but at the concentrations needed to poison you may not be enough to cause a gas explosion in presence of a ignition source.

CO poisons you by taking the place of oxygen in the blood. Your blood picks up O2 or CO form the lungs. The blood much rather carry CO than O2, hence if CO is present, the blood would rather grab it, than any O2 present. with CO being circulated rather than O2, you die. CO poisons you by this method. It shuts down your brain. folks have survived, but are brain dead, or brain damaged.

CO is odorless and colorless. it will make you sleepy before it kills you in most cases.

Back in the 1960/70's children riding in the back of station wagons with the rear window rolled down (tail gate window) have been poisoned to death by CO entering the car, while the parents up front just thought they were sleeping. hence the advice if you drive a station wagon with the rear window down, be sure to open a front window to prevent CO intake casue by the suction at the rear of the car while it travels down the road. Now days this is not as big a concern, as the cars produce much less of this highly posionous gas than back in the heyday of the station wagon. Suicide by exhaust in a modern car is much more difficult.

Old VW's and other air cooled cars with exhaust heat exchangers need be have the heaters kept in premium condition to prevent the riders from being poisoned by the CO gas. any leaks, or modifications that allow more CO into the cabin can be deadly. there are also health issues with less than lethal doses.

CO is poisonous, and has killed many unsuspecting folks, it can cause permanent brain damage if you live.

To improve heating in the air cooled VW based cars, it is advised in my old VW manual to crack open a window a bit to improve heating. what this does is allow a place for the heated air to go. think about it, if you are trying to circulate hot air into a closed cabin via an outside fan and ducts, you will get better flow if you open the cabin a bit, to allow the heated air to pass through. This is advice from an old VW manual.

The idea for a CO meter is excellent. Check the CO levels both while driving, and at idle, as air flow around the car can influence the intake of CO.

CO is highly toxic/poisonous and should always be a consideration when modifiying/repairing/inspecting the heater system.

Also note i had a SS heat exchanger that was damaged by road hazards. Although it only appeared the outer 'can' was dented, it did not take long to smell exhaust gasses in the cabin with the heat on. after removal of the SS heat exchanger, we found the the manifold cracked wide open on the inside. it was dumping exhaust gasses into the cabin. Lucked out, good thing it was caught and not ignored. The smell that alerted us was from fumes other than CO (ie oil drips burning oil, etc...) Remember CO is odorless, and deadly poison. If my car had not been burning a bit of oil, the leak may have not been caught in time.

There are stories of VW drivers falling asleep at the wheel and crashing because the CO caused them to pass out. if they survived the crash, they might be lucky enough to have the engine die/windows break, thus stopping the poisoning of their blood supply. Sometimes they ended up dead anyway, from the CO alone. if you get drowsey driving the 914 with heater on, better shut down the heat, and open a window, then get the system checked out, or a CO meter to test. You don't want to mess with deadly poisonous toxic Carbon Monoxide.

The thought that CO is not poisonous is dangerous. don't bet your life on it.

CO does not sufficate you, it chemically binds to your red blood cells, it meetrs the defination of poison. Suffication is from lack of O2 in your lungs. you can die of CO poisoning with a huge amount of O2 in your lungs.

You can sufficate in nitrogen, if the nitrogen concentration is such that you have less than about 19 +/- percent oxygen present. This kills you from lack of O2 available to breath into your lungs.
You can die from CO poisoning even if you have 50% oxygen present (which is way more concentration of O2 than you need) . Nitrogen is not a poison, CO is.

Alchohol is a poison. Usually drunk in quantities far less than that which will poison you.

No chuckle here, just the facts.

Stay safe.

who let you back in?

you might not know it, but i have gone through extensive training (three years of my life) in regards to CO. and i finished with an A in chemistry.
my life & job revolved all around CO during that time.

CO, per definition, is not a poison.

i have no clue how you turn that statement into some drivel about me playing down the danger of CO. if you actually read my post, you'd see that i said CO is deadly. it'll kill you if you inhale enough of it. it's just not poisonous ...

get it?
Andy

wrong ...

"From the lungs CO enters a person's bloodstream and prevents hemoglobin in the red blood cells from carrying oxygen to other vital organs. In high concentrations, CO will completely shut down the body's ability to utilize oxygen. A lack of oxygen for more than a few minutes causes permanent damage to the brain and heart, causing victims to essentially suffocate from within."

Andy

no you are dead wrong on this. suffication is from lack of oxygen in the atmosphere you breath, or lack of ability to breath from some obstruction.

CO kills by a poisonous action, and is not suffication.

if you got a quote, what's your source? "Essentially sufficate from within" as you stated is wrong for CO in this situation. Suffication is not the same as "essentially sufficate from within."

lack of oxygen becaue it is not avialable to take into your lungs is suffication (ie in a reduced O2 atmosphere) drowning death from inability to breath oxygen becasue you lungs are full of water is suffication.

Death by CO when plenty of oxygen is present is not suffication, it is poisoning.

Now if the CO had displaced all the oxygen to below that level required to live, than one might agrue death by suffication, however the poisoning action of CO would still be present.

You have confussed the concept of lack of oxygen in the atmosphere and lack of body's ability to use the oxygen present as both beinbg suffication. You prior post about posioning being a chemical process is correct, and that is how CO kills. it has nothing to do with suffiucation in this context.

Ethyl alcohol is a poison, that is the same alcohol that is in wine/beer. You may not normally drink quantaties that kill you, but it is a poison, it kills by a chemical prosess. I suppose you could also drown in alcohol, but then death would be by suffication by drowning, not posioning.

The rats that die at 1800 ppm (LC50) of CO did not sufficate. In the LC50 test there is air present with sufficeint O2 to prevent suffication. It is the poisoning nature of CO that does them in.

Your wrong about CO not being a poison , and CO killing by suffication (except in the rare instance of CO displacing the oxygen in the atmosphere to level of 19%+/- O2 or less) But with that much CO, you'd still be poisoned by the CO.

I am a certified hazardous materials first responder and refer you to look up the MSDS for CO.
By the way, ethyl alcohol MSDS lists the LD50 (lethyl Dose for 50% of subjects (rat) is 7060 mg/kg thus 7060 mg of alcohol per kg of body wieght kills 50% of the rats tested

lethyl dose is used for solids/liquids, and lethyl concentratin for gasses.

yeah, i missed you too! (or not) ...

i spent every workday for 3 years straight helping people to prevent them from killing themselves with CO.
i have seen two dead bodies myself after they had drowned in the bathtub.
yes, you read correctly, drowned *after* they passed out from CO.

i have been to many more homes where people have died from CO.

i have been to thousands of homes to make sure there is no CO hazard. i have spent countless hours in basements, attics, bathrooms and more with all sorts of gizmos to detect leaking CO, clogged vents and such.
i have spent months in school to learn about anything there is to learn in regards to CO. i finished school with an average of B+ (all classes combined).

- CO, by definition, is *not* a poison
- death from lack of oxygen in your blood *is* suffocating

Andy

Jim,
you could always do what I do to take the chill out of the car.........

Put On A Jacket!

The MSDS is very telling in listing CO as poison or toxic. suffication is not mentioned at all in any of the MSDS 's I have read for CO.

Try a google search of "MSDS carbon monoxide" and read about the toxic properties. I spent about ten years as a Hazardous materials first responder, that beats your three years of experience. I passed my last exam with 100%, That should beat a "B" grade any day. The bottomline is the MSDS is the authority on the subject.

Golly with your loose defination of suffication, if you slit your wrists, and bled out, i suppose your blood wouldn't be able to carry oxygen from you lungs anymore. Would that be considered that suffication?????


Please give a source for your information, I'll be happy to read it, if wrong, i will admit it. But please take the time to read the MSDS.

please try to be a bit more respectful in your disagrements. My reasearch is not drivel. Give your sources that you obtain your facts from. my facts on the toxic nature of CO, and Ethyl alcohol are straight from the MSDS which are internationally reconized as the authority of hazardous materials. The Federal governement riquires these MSDS's in all industrial situations when these chemicals are used.

I happily await your citations and sources for your claims of CO not being a poison. I also await your responce to the sources I have posted for you to search.

Please afford me the courtesy of researching my sources, and allow me the oppertunity to read your sources of information.

Going back at forth at this time is pointless unless the sources can be checked out by both of us.

how good is your german? interesting parts in BOLD ...



Andy

Please translate this german text, I can't comment on it until I can read it, I do not read german. Since this entire post up unitl now has been in english, please continue this in English as it is now a matter of fact that both of us read and understand english. Perhaps you have some english text from your work experience/education with CO?

Please in translation also include title of your source information.

I await your comment on what your research in the english language MSDS says on carbon monoxide that supports my position that CO is toxic/poison.

If you can't defend your postion that CO is not poisonous in any english language text, please advise. There are ample english sources of MSDS for CO produced by many sellers/makers of CO.

I await a reply that I and the majority of members which are english trained readers/speakers can understand.

A text that cannot be read by others will not support your position that CO is non-poisonous.

the problem with that definition is that it is too broad. almost *anything* can be traced back to a chemical action/reaction if you dig deep enough ...

if i put a knife through your heart, what do you actually die of?

think about that for a minute ...

you will die of a chemical reaction. in fact, you will die from lack of oxygen to your brain. your brain will suffocate! the sudden loss of blood will result in lack of oxygen to your brain which will kill your brain-cells and you die.

the part that actually kills you is *exactly* the same as if you had inhaled CO for an extended period of time!

but you wouldn't me stabbing you in the heart call "metal poisoning", now would you?
Andy

those damm germans! how could they write all their textbooks in german?

Cyanide is not a poisin either, it just short circuits the mitochondrial electron transport chain so that you can not make ATP.

Semantical arguments are won based on definition

if as you say, "almost anything can'...." Given the lack of any other reason for death, and based soley on inhalation of a minimally lethal dose of CO, then are you admitting that CO is a posion?

note that the websters quotation was not mine, rather i cite the MSDS for CO. As of now you have failed to refute the MSDS. I still stand by what the MSDS says.

are you now of the opinion that anything is poison that causes death? (which could include CO)? I would disagree with that opinion.

Your reasoning has become circular, and you are now contridicting yourself.

You have not cited anything that we can mutually read that supports your position, and have thus far failed to refute the sources I gave in supporting my position.

I think you have failed to support your opinion, and hence it must be concluded you are wrong.

Consequently, Andy, you are not exactly wrong, but not all right either. (you may be doing this on purpose jsut for grinns). If you stabbed someone, yes, you would "suffocate the brain, but via mechanical means not directly chemical. BUT, we could argue that the knife is indead made of chemicals and as thus meets the criteria....aw crap, I got roped in