If VW made a flat 8


Brazilian Flat 8

I know, not a Type IV, I would think it would be close enough to a Type I to be done the same way?

What are the odds the modified crank will break before the rings have broken in?

No puedo hablar Espanol, pero su piso ocho cigüeñal pudo ser grande

Custom for the sake of being custom, it’s great if you want to empress strangers. But there are cheaper more reliable ways of making horsepower…

I really like it! Rich.....

I think T4 heads would have been easier.

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If we all took that stance, we would all just dump chevy small blocks in our cars and be done with it.

Zach

"908 firing orders (taken from a Bill Oursler article).
1--1,8,2,6,4,5,3,7; bad vibrations with 135 or 225 degrees between opposite pistons
2--1,5,2,7,4,8,3,6; better, but still had vibrations
3--1,7,2,8,5,3,6,4; final version that eliminated vibrations; a true boxer with 180 degrees between opposite pistons."

The first one, above, cracked frames and screwed-up electronics.

I don't habla, so does anyone know what the firing order was, or did they even say?
I just noticed the writing on the valve covers.
Is that:
position
5678
1234
or
3568
7124

Damn, I'm all confused now. Nevermind.

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This is drawn as an an interlaced crank.10 main bearings

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This is drawn as an inserted crank,1 4cyl crank in the middle,the other split and joined at each end.

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This is drawn as 2 4cyl cranks joined end to end 90* apart,the successful orientation.


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This engine ran the Indy 500.Cosworth Vega heads,probably AlSi bores.2 x 4cyl Vertex magnetos.(Edit:03/08/15:Nope,Not Indy.Pocono 500 1977)

F8 recalled
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?sho...amp;hl=beck+gt1
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?sho...2522&st=100

Simple.More displacement needed.
Desired a less expensive way than buying a production engine.
This engine is very nice,like what Emerson Fittipaldi raced as a 3.2L.
Brazil,Sweden,places it's been done.
For your T1 super-duty case needs:
http://www.autolinea.com.br/


Part:
Weld or machine
(1) a crank,2 flat 4s 90* apart
(2) crankcases,T1,T4,Corvair,or custom.(Custom Corvair lost foam casting)
(3) cylinder heads,pushrod or ohc,air or water cooled.(kiss,vvt twincam,pushrod)
(4) Nickies to 8 x 96mm x 76mm =4.4L(Big bore,short stroke and deck height)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyRBbGb2UDA

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yeah,4v pushrod.
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a 4 cylinder.
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Actually ran.

There is no easier way to build the F8 than the Brazilian's method.kiss.

What to put it in:
http://scootermcrad.blogspot.ca/2014/07/po...conception.html
/
(edit:03/16/16)

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Found the pix,'70-80s experimental,by Arao/Scat,pushrod 4V T1,
You can see the rocker arrangement and twin rockershafts.
The rod pushes the primary rocker,which simultaneously acts upon the secondary rocker.
The spring loads are lighter as the valves are smaller and lighter too.
Titanium valves and retainers and roller rockers may allow a higher rev band.
That was ,as I recall,was their failing in the '70s.As well as the price.
/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXKcpbFF7WI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0TFrJv9CO8


Beetle BIMOTOR called the 'Jamaro' first test.

Translation from the video:
"Excellent, the pressure is great, Today is March 19th, 2009, and tomorrow, we will be recorded for the show,
'Auto Esporte'. Good work Marco, Good work Arlindo"

Marcelo Henrique:
This is what Fittipaldi drove?

CRITICAL POINT,PONTOCRITICO:
The idea of ​​creating large engines with smaller units of existing parts is not new and that engine began to be conceived in the late 60s.
But since then, it has been found that in practice for this thesis is not so easy. What is originally a small and low-performance engine,
it does not generate sufficient lubrication and too hot in the last cylinder block with the increase. Then the resistance and serviceability of the air VW contradicts with increasing size.
Then begin a series of adjustments that begin to change everything in the original engine, creating almost a new engine and is not the original design intent
Keep parts and the original propeller profile is viable to the 6-cylinder design, because in the case of the 8-cylinder plus overheats, it lacks lubrication critically.
They walked considering transforming the 8-cylinder engine in aircraft design because with the cylinders exposed things get easier, but not so this was being very easy.
As the old American adage, free lunch is something that does not exist ...

 Gabriel Aiello:
you would an engine of these on order?

 T-Bar Auto Doc:
This is a custom flat 8 built in Brazil. The prototype was two VW engines (each 1500cc) built together to form one fire breathing monster known as the the 'Jamaro'.


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Have a close look at those parts.Floating wrist pins.Gas or TIG welded heads.

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Yes,this is it,the 'Jamaro of Brazil'.
Marco has a battery and pump,checking oil flow(trans fluid).


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low-res photo,note cut and shut welds on case.How they dunnit,a few years ago.
Resize the welded crank and rod journals to fit the remachined cases post welding.
Main journals and bearings larger than stock.Means facing and line-boring the cases.
Any tig-man could do this in 2015.Weld a set of cases to 0.005"?Sure.Build a set of jigs and oven weld in steps,checking all the way.

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Emerson Fittipaldi's 1970 3.2L mid-engine Beetle.Ganged engine.


http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/archive/i...t-353826--.html
http://mestrejoca.blogspot.ca/2009/03/as-e...tor-jamaro.html
A cast crank?Sure.

/

(edit:09/10/16):
http://forum.hotcampinas.com/showthread.ph...00cc-8cil-boxer

[

"Perhaps one of the boldest projects involving engines will be talked about now in MotorSS during the 60's and 70 national motoring wind was in the stern, official teams of assemblers,
emergence of new categories, workshops creating their own cars and engines.
And in 1969, the brothers Jairo and Jair Amaro built a unique engine. A VW air 8-cylinder boxer with 3000 cc, may be the only motor 8 cylinders with these settings in the world!
In fact he was born in 69 with the addition of 2 1,300 cc blocks, and this one camshaft (which are actually 2 P3 soldiers in one piece), and a crankshaft that turns the eight lying cylinders to feed 2 webber 48.
The history of this car actually is this conceptual engine. In the story, the designers put him in a car race formula style. This engine came to walk in 70 years, but a chronic problem of lack of oil pressure
wore a little his image and many of its competitors at that time had stronger engines, made this engine was left aside. Amaro brothers built in the decade of 60-70s over 25 race cars Formula Vee,
and even the sports car maker Puma became interested in the VW 8-cylinder engine, but missed. Brothers Fitipaldi also set up a Volkswagen Beetle Bimotor, but its manufacture was totally different from Jamaro.
In 2004, Paul Trevisan, businessman Passo Fundo and passionate about motoring acquired the engine in the city of Guaratingueta, SP and brought to the Brazilian Motor doMuseu the collection
owned by the same engine .That was all dismantled and restored, after that it has been tested bench. It was also studied and relieved the problem of oil pressure, or the engine tava ready.Now lacked a car.
After long evaluation it was decided to make a Volkswagen Beetle Beechcraft, for reasons that enthusiasts can imagine, which put the name of the original prototype.
Some changes occurred in the engine to try to solve the oil problem, demanded 2 exchange bearings of the connecting rods, a new high-pressure pump driven by toothed belt improved the car's performance.
In fact, it is a fairing Beetle on a tubular chassis racing Espron. Only in March 2009 this engine was turned on to be displayed at the Auto Sport TV Globo, which will soon be aired. On the program's filming, the car showed
overheating due to kardródomo the runway Velopark incompatible with the car's performance.Now Paul and his mechanic Marcos are installing additional electric fans on the roof to improve engine cooling,
for only the air entradade on the front glass not supplied the air necessary for such activity. Paul Trevisan informed us that there is a great expectation of VW Bimotor Jamaro floor at the Interlagos circuit, later this year.
Now, this beautiful car is the only sound, a different snoring all other engines, and you can prove in
http://www.interney.net/blogs/saloma Soloma blog on YouTube (type Fusca Bimotor)
The Volkswagen Beetle Bimotor as we talked about before is part of the Brazilian Automobile Museum located in Passo Fundo.
Want to learn more, visit the website: http://www.museudoautomobilismo.com.br/"

]
/

Why the hell would you go to all that trouble and then use single port heads

Because that's what they had on hand? It doesn't look like they bought a lot of stuff for this project, keeping with the CSOB theme.

'The Jamaro'.
Back in 1969, the brothers Jairo and Jair Amaro built the unique ganged VW engine,Emerson Fittipaldi ran one too.
Paul Trevisan* had the -8 'Jamaro' built in 2009.Marco and Arlindo did it in their shop,maybe with a gas torch.
Tig or not,a great piece of artwork.Be the first here. No doubt a trek into the world of invention.


/

I was thinking the same thing as soon as I saw the heads. Even if you don't have any on hand, with the price of used dual port heads, you could buy 4 and still keep it in the CSOB price range.

So it looks like it took 3 engine cases for the Brazilian motor...interesting and it makes sense now that I look at it.

The crankshaft is what I really want to see. If I am thinking about this correctly, the rear bearing of one crank and front bearing of another crank will be in the same place.

So with some careful planning, machine front crank rear bearing journal to fit into a machined recess of the rear crank, drill holes and rosette weld assembly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfnN5Xna2Kc
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The journal is prepared by machining a "j" root vee and given a preheat,a few tig passes then cover passes by smaw in an oven.
X-ray quality welds,like for pressure vessels,it's a 2"bar of steel that's highly stressed by the torsional loads.
The Brazilian said the builder had cast a crank for the engine in malleable iron,a nodular pour was possible then,in Brazil.

I've done some aluminum castings at home, I built a propane fueled furnace years ago. The added heat of cast iron scares me a little!

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An unfortunate smelting accident.

The fella's got a neat setup,and is able to stay well away from the heat.
Pouring ferrous calls for different techniques in moulding and attention to the charge's metallurgy.
Iron cranks are just fine for a trial and experimental engine,pretty cheap too.

There is a belief in the VW Bus crowd that single port heads are stronger, less prone to cracking, and make more torque than Dual Port heads…

Anymore pictures of the 4 valve setup? I don't see how the valves are actuated?
I see the tubes on the bottom of the complete motor, but after that I am lost.

I found more pictures of the Lind Type IV flat 8 motor and it appears he stuck one into a 914!


Notice "8" on the rear of the car and the rear trunk modified for clearance for the air cleaners.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GpMGPUMyXE


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4kxqwUP1Q0


I found a thread on another air cooled forum with Jake Raby looking into buying one of these motors, I guess they wanted way too much $$ for him to justify doing it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pEcmCWhKZ-c


Hmmm...So many pix.Still searching for them.
The 4V heads are JimFueling/Rivera for HD V-Twins.

The stacked VW T1 photo shows a different set of 4V heads of a very unique design that used interconnected rockers.
Somewhere in California in the '70s for buggys and rails.Likely only experimental stage of development back then.

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Australian machined billet,chromolly,~4340.
Note the crankpin orientation of 2 flat-4s end to end 90* apart cross-plane like.
Not interspersed as in the drawing #1.

/

http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=384359
Scat has the real info on those heads,seems they were flogging them.

Anyone know how to contact the guys in Sweden?
A name and address will do, I have family over there to hunt them down.
I would like to see how much he wants for one of the motors.

http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=115771
Newton's Law of momentum.


"Piledriver's extension of Newtons first law:
A vehicle on jackstands tends to remain that way.
Further:
The longer it stays on jackstands, the more money will be needed to get it back off."

What could be more true?

http://thekneeslider.com/francesco-romanel...mazing-designs/
Makin it work.

The stronger and less prone to cracking part is true.
More torque is BS

You have to remember a bus on a freeway handles and is about as aerodynamic as a brick double shit house on wheels

On the heads it's like history repeating itself

These split port heads are nothing new in fact they have been around since the 70's
None were ever more than a prototype novelty.
They were all too expensive.
They never made enough extra HP over well prepped VW heads to justify the expense.

The only one that were ever made some what commercially viable were the Scat split port heads and they were a total POS turd pile.



Why?...it's not going to be cheap.



I understand this is just a theoretical discussion but .......wow....really?

VW Radial 7,Because he knows how and wanted to.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SyRJeZ6s8uM



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGeSIM_8BHY


Not sure if he's going to fly it with only 2L.

I would think a larger footprint for the stand would be a good thing,wouldn't want to be chased around the yard by the massive thing.
I am lovin this Bug much more than I should,so impractical,outrageous,loud and smokey.
(I hope someone agrees it should be a mid engine)
And now the world needs a aircooled 7L T4 V12. Go ahead,test your talent.

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Could do worse than by starting with these watercooled heads.
Keep it truebrand and not narp.
A custom crank with 8 crankpins,and a crankcase to hold it all together.
Some coated bores in a more staggered layout,to keep it newtech.
Keeping the stroke real short and the bore oversquare a revver you would have.
Definitely a lightweight rod+piston package,none of this is cheap.
A Porsche 771 is unobtainium,so build a custom 8 to power your custom 914.

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TT 914 2.1L-6
Something to aspire to,trying to keep up with those 917s and 962s.

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6+2=8

The mother of invention.

/
A look at a million's value of -8,-12 Porsche engines.
http://www.carbuildindex.com/23811/porsche...-and-recovered/

I'm a little partial to the 956 motor, water cooled heads with air cooled cylinders

Ideally no water cooled anything....those radial motors are cool, great HP for the weight...

Not by today's standards. Modern engines can be far better than the radials in that regard.

--DD

Only if you add water.......

Reliability was the test of success at the time."If it ain't round,it ain't sound".

Air or Water is the question you must resolve first to begin planning the ultimate 8 and how the vibes will be cured.
Swept volume larger than the 3L of the factory engines is limited by the weight that will shake.
With the factory S4 heads in good detailed form,a massive task is solved.
The whole idea is preposterous of course,taking the heads off a damaged V8 and adapt them to a custom F8 block.
Then adding turbos when the reliability is proven.Mission creep,yeah but so very interesting to develop and prove out.
Bruce Crower ran the Indy 500 with such an engine,the magneto drive DNF'd the car,running big pressure and methanol.

(Edit:03/08/15: Pocono 500 1977 Chuck Gurney #57

Nope,Not the Indy 500
Eagle 72 [7205] (Chuck Gurney): AAR's third team car in 1972 and entered at the Indy 500 as the #48 Mystery Eagle for Jerry Grant. Also raced by Grant at other races that season, taking pole position at Ontario with the first official lap at over 200 mph. The car was sold to engine specialist Bruce H. Crower for 1973 and entered as his #23 Crower Cams car as a test bed for various Chevrolet engine projects over the next three seasons. In late 1976, the car returned again as the #57, powered by Crower's own flat-8 engine. Crower then acquired a 1974 Eagle for 1978 and the '72 car was retired. It was still owned by Crower in 2014.)

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Pretty sure that's Dan Gurney in the blue shirt.

Yes--like I said, modern motors.

--DD

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Before you cut:
Leave excess material for finishing weld prep on both sides of crankcase.
Prepare hollow steel shafts to locate both cam and crankshaft bores +.0005/-0.0002",longitudinal spacing can be accomplished by using case thru-bolts or cylinder spigots.
This Type 1 case has been cut through the lifter bores,not good.
The type 4 case must be cut to avoid critical areas and to facilitate ease of welding.
The Corvair case has symmetrical attributes and a flat milled open top that allows reinforcement plates or a cam carrier to be attached.
A great deal of thought and mapping must be done to attempt a +/-0.003 weldment,preheating and inert gas atmosphere enclosure to ensure top quality welds and alignment.
An adventure in engine building,not mere assembly.

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Corvair cases tig welded to an 8 cylinder configuration.
The VW Type 1 and Porsche Type 4 cases are a more difficult proposition.
The difficulty lies in the asymmetric designs of both.
The cut path and weld is therefore more of a meandering length.

This is getting better every minute.

http://bringatrailer.com/2014/08/19/flat-t...-canam-tribute/

Wow, that sure needs some cleaning up...wonder how many layers that sucker is on?!

Anymore info on it? Was it actually made?

HaHa,two.
This is an ongoing work in progress toward F8 perfection.When you say layers,I suppose you mean Cad.
Not cad,these are the GM drawings that I've modified to make 8,in Gimp.
Cleaned up the photocopy,scaled and rotated,hours of fun.Then modded and dimensioned.
A twin cam VVT is in the works as a reasonable compromise,the heads are the toughest job.
Watercooled canted 4 valve,pushrod,a kiss approach.

Where to get them.20+ years they've been posted.
http://autoxer.skiblack.com/nallm/cylhd/jpeg/
http://autoxer.skiblack.com/
(I have always wondered if,in another parallel reality,a mid-engined Corvair roadster would have been a sales worthy auto in '68-69.
A 2 seat open top Targa,with lightweight composite lids and doors,a fastback.The sohc 6 would have,in turbo form,supplied 250+ hp easily.)

(edit:11/10/15)
BTW,these drawing are of the product from which the original diecast mold shop created the working drawing for the dies themselves.
In the '50s and 60s,the task was monstersized with the scarcity or near non-existence of NC machine tooling.
The primary driver for GE/Westinghouse expenditures to develop the tech,the ability to command a quadrant of a circle in the path of a heavy machinetool.
Pantograph or "copymills"were still being used extensively but the development of higher level languages made the programming workload such that adoption was rapid.

https://www.google.ca/search?q=corvair+engi...52F%3B640%3B512

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SOHC 2.9L

(edit:11/09/15)
A real testbed engine,flogged on the dyno,test track and public roads from Death Valley to Las Vegas and Denver and above.
The Turbo was the winner of the contest,the production costs associated with the OHC engines nulled the greenlite.
A further development could have paid dividends in the soon to expand sportscar market.
A direct competitor to the Porsche 911,a mid-engined Fiero chassis in CF for a solid 375hp in '65-75.
A rose colored 20-20 into the past.

That SOHC motor is pretty looking engine!

I've rebuilt a Lycoming, never touched a Corvair motor....


Below...anothe pic of the Jabiru motor, I didn't see this pic in your other threads...

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I know pic below is a 6 cylinder, but I'd imagine they made the 8 the same way...

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http://contrails.free.fr/engine_jab_inside_en.php

Bulletproof cases in wrought material,pricey,tho just what you need for a big bore short stroke flat 8.
A high level of customization is possible with this approach,a one off custom.

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What the Corvair-8 case looks like in gimp.Pretty huh?A simple approach.Cut and weld.

Aero diesel,in a flat v configuration.
http://eps.aero/the-eps-engine/
Appears to have good prospects.


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Corvair-8-VVT-TC

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http://www.engineswapdepot.com/?p=5104
Ah,the madness.This is so..awesome.
This crankcase is steel!Probably to test layout of 120* Vee angle of the cylinder banks.

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I forget what I was searching for last night, google had this one pop up...

http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/boxer-engi...-8-project.html


A flat 8 made from 2 flat 4 motors.


I didn't know Alfa made a horizontal motor!


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Forgot what you were searching for so "flat 8 " motor is your default?

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Jurgen Barth May 24 1980 Porsche 908/80 2.1L-6 Turbo.
2nd overall at LeMans,a podium finish,Ickx,Joest and Leclere .
https://www.google.ca/search?q=1980+24+Hour...IrR9fShVhuLM%3A

So,a liquid cooled flat 8 is your quest,and you have a few spare Subaru 3.0 H6s laying around gathering dust.
https://www.google.ca/search?q=subaru+3.0L+...SgA&dpr=1.5
http://blog.perrinperformance.com/perrin-h6-build-up/
This then is the plan,as before,a cut and weld operation.Such an effort requires the skills of talented welders and machinists.

http://www.strobotics.com/index.htm
https://www.google.ca/search?q=robotic+arm+...+axis+deburring
(Mounting the two cases in an indexed position,the arm,with an air die-grinder and vee tool will cut the cases in an identical,mating method.
A weld prep and section that positions the two case ends longitudinally +/- 0.25mm,0.01",perfectly.A series of small tacking welds to stitch-weld the groove.
This is far superior than filling a 1/4" sawn gap and the greater shrinkage with it,this is a minimum weld volume,enabling a close control of distortion.
After all,you would want to make another after the first one,exactly the same,or a new improved weld groove.)

Titanium and inconel valves,as a twin turboed variant is,after all,so hot.The billet crank is the main ingredient,held by the lightweight rods.
None of this is cheap,and the effort would be wasted by a weak approach.A reliable fuel control is essential,so,no sneezing,and it won't burn a piston.
A shortstroke < 4L engine would hang together long enough to impress,using a welded crank and steel rods is about the lowest cost option,rev limited.

Now,what to put it in,a 914 roadster,as above,with the snorkel and wing.


https://www.google.ca/search?q=porsche+boxs...RK6BQoQ_AUIBigB
https://www.google.ca/search?q=porsche+boxs...neJlg3UBSXfM%3A

Hmmm...

/
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0WwqYAv4Qw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-yX_kmcQrg

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http://www.racingsportscars.com/type/photo...he/908__80.html
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https://books.google.ca/books?id=RQzeqWTBaT...rbo&f=false

/

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914-8,From the book,'67-8.

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?sho...=24992&st=0


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHIBPb2zkIc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klptXsXwCjI

Loud eight noises,er,music.

/

@Mueller are you still on the board?

Did you find anyone making cases or cranks?

I am close to starting up this project
Mill and lathe here, just getting them hooked up.

I still think copying the original flat /12 design with the center supported crank could work for two stock /4 cranks welded together.

You need to eliminate the tendency of the crank to want to bend in the center under torque.

It was also bloody brilliant to run the fan in the center straight off gears on the crank.