Some people claim that if you are a a stop light with the car in gear, but clutch pushed all the way in, that it wears out the throwout bearing faster.

I had a lengthy discussion about this with one of our 914World member and a 914 guru of the highest Grand Master level (Mugsy). He convinced me that it is fine to idle at a stop light with the car in gear and clutch pushed in. So, that's what I usually do. Every once in awhile it's tough to get the car in 1st, and I don't want some F150 riding over me when the light turns green and I'm on an easter egg gear hunt.

Yesterday I was driving a friend's '71 911, and he started giving me crap for not putting into neutral at lights (Mugsy, you guys got the motor sounding great!).

Just thought it would be interesting to solicit the group and see what your thoughts are on this topic.

The heck with the throw out bearing, I don't want to wear out my clutch cable!

IDK, heard that too, but I do both. It just depends how far along the light is when I pull up to it.

If your 1st is hard to get it sounds like you need some adjustment or bushings.

I do both, usually if the light isn't going to change right away I'll get neutral before I stop. Then go for gears when I see the other direction go yellow. I have had the cable break before and that's not something you want to happen when you are sitting at a light, especially if there is a crosswalk.

I'd heard something similar, except that the wear was on the crank bearings. Without the pressure of the clutch against the flywheel, it allows for lateral movement in the crankshaft which can increase end play. It's also why you shouldn't start or stop the engine with the clutch pedal depressed.

I used to own a TR6 and I know that was a well documented issue among the Triumph community with the crank bearings on that car. EVERY Triumph owner I talked to said "neutral at lights, neutral when you start and stop the engine". I've heard similar things from other people in regards to type 1's and type 4's.

Obviously I'm no expert. It'd be nice for one to weigh in on this issue. I also keep an eye out for the cross street light turning yellow, so that I have a few seconds to get into gear if I need it. But I do occasionally have those instances at a light where the car won't go into 1st, and it feels like the guy behind me wants to run me over.

I have that problem of finding first sometimes as well and have also heard the same thing. So I usually keep it in neutral and try finding first as soon as the light for cross traffic turns yellow. Does anyone really know if it puts much wear on the bearing?

Neutral would leave the main shaft spinning. What's wrong with that? I don't think the owners manual states to leave it in 1st with the clutch pushed in.

I do both depending on the length of the stop light. If the tranny fails, it wil not be at a stop light in neutral.

Similar discussion in the motorcycle community. thought there is to keep it in gear at the light in case something bad is happening behind you and you need to move out of the way quickly.

when I'm the last in line I usually keep it in gear, but if there are cars behind me I will click it into neutral. I figure the cars behind me will absorb some of the blow. and it saves on the clutch cable.

I'm always in gear, ready to get the F*ck out of the way if I'm about to get hit!

Yeah, bikes are a little different. Safety is the big thing, but they also don't tend to last for big miles like cars and their (mostly) wet clutches work a bit differently.

Leaving your foot on the clutch does cause additional wear on the throwout bearing, but the real damage is wear on the engine, specifically crank thrust bearing. I'm sure some people here are familiar with VW engines and being able to pull the crank pulley out, then push it back in, to measure end play that indicates general wear on the engine. If you can move the crank in and out any more than a couple of thousandths the thrust surface on the center main is worn and you're due for an engine rebuild. Almost the only time that surface is stressed in the engine is when the clutch is compressed, pushing against the flywheel and pushing the flywheel and the whole rotating assembly to the front of the engine.

If you're only at the light a few seconds then sure, leave the clutch in. Any more and you're much better off in neutral with your foot on the brake and off the clutch.

No merit whatsoever. Since sometime in the 80s all manual trans cars have a kill switch to prevent one from starting the car without having the clutch released.

Leaving the clutch engaged adds main shaft rotation and cold thick gear oil to the starter load and is something else for the engine to overcome to run. Another reason not to.

I've been driving stick for 2 decades, I get my foot off the pedal as soon as possible as it puts an unnatural force on the knee joint.

Well, I learned in drivers ed to have it out of gear. You get nudged by someone and then the foot slips off the clutch and or brake. Of course same applies to the cars with automatics, and they sure don't shift into neutral. Go figure. I like the idea of tuning the system till it actually works most all the time - the I am not wearing stuff out and my foot gets a rest. Bigger problem is I have more than one toy car, but only one with that 901 shift pattern. Fortunately the backup lights let them know you are coming.

Even with the tranny in neutral and the clutch engaged, the internal parts are spinning. This is evident if you ever jack up the rear of a car with the engine running.

Even if the clutch is disengaged, there is enough drag and kinetic motion to keep parts spinning.

I think the worry is mostly urban legend.

The 914 and 411 manuals didn’t really talk about these issues, but for starting the Type III the VW manual says depress the clutch when starting below 32 degrees. The only thing I could find about the clutch was also in the Type III manual, it was just don’t use the clutch pedal as a foot rest. The Samba

Step 1: Restore your entire car, bolt-by-bolt, every single thing.

Step 2: Never drive car so that things don't wear out.

California DMV driving test = points off /or fail if you are at a stop and not engaged in gear with clutch depressed. Happened to a friend of mine. The examiner was hardcore... also made them back up into an uphill parallel parking space
My tech tells me to keep my g50 in neutral at stops, 901 or 915 no preference.
Marty

Are you sure? That contradicts what I was taught so I googled it and found this from the California DMV, at http://www.dmv.org/how-to-guides/driving-stick.php:

"When you are coming to a stop, you can do two things: you can depress the clutch and keep the car in gear, getting ready to go again in first; or you can put the shifter in the neutral position and let the clutch back up. It is sometimes good to put a stick shift in neutral while stopped, to ease the strain on your leg and foot, and also to lessen wear and tear on your clutch. When it is time to go again, simply depress the clutch and put the shifter into first gear, and give the vehicle a little gas."

It's for teaching how to drive but I couldn't find anything in the testing criteria, and I doubt they'd say to teach something and then take points off for it.

So how do you guys put it in neutral?
I coast down until the engine is @ idle speed and put in neutral without using the clutch.
At idle speed there is no resistance.

This is government we're talking about, right?

Yes, and they're the ones giving the driving test and issuing you a license, so their game, their rules. And it's aligned with Marty's mechanic, so not bad practical advice, either. I repeat, crank main thrust bearings.

I always drop it in neutral when at a stop. When I see the light turn yellow, I push in the clutch, shift into 2nd and drop back into 1st. Saves on the first gear slider, throw out bearing, and clutch cable.

This is why all cars should be automatics.

Whenever I stop I try to keep it in neutral, regardless of cable or hydraulic. It's the way I was taught. Aside from my Kubota, I've never owned an automatic & automatics rule for cutting the grass.

I put my automatic in neutral at stop lights......

Yup... I do to. I have all wheel drive, and you can actually feel the car stop straining when you pull it out of drive. I have no scientific proof, but in the back of my mind, I feel leaving it in gear with the auto and all wheel drive, it's like the four wheels are pushing against the brakes, and the brakes are fighting to keep the wheels from moving...however miniscule it is.

plus, I do put the 914 in neutral at lights.

European manuals didn't have the interlock switch until the last few years. I've never owned a car with a clutch interlock switch. From what I understand they were added more to prevent lawsuits from dumb people not checking if the car is in neutral before starting.
Maybe modern cars have thrust washers that can withstand that kind of wear, but here's a read regarding Triumphs. Specifically point #4:
http://www.britishcarweek.org/tr6_3.html
There's a similar attitude in the ACVW community. Wear through those thrust washers and the end play will get to the point that the crank, crank bearings, and block (or case, in our case!) can sustain serious damage.

I always drop it into neutral at a stop light. The plantar fasciitis in my left foot flares up big time the longer I keep pressing down on the clutch pedal.

Many years ago, some throw-out bearings weren't bearings at all. They used a graphite donut (like on my 1960 bug) encased in a steel cup. Whenever the clutch pedal was depressed, the graphite was gradually wearing down. When it wore down far enough, the steel cup started wearing a groove in the pres. plate. I was taught that the only time the clutch should be dis-engaged was when shifting gears. That lesson has stayed with me.

My humble comments related to the discussion:

"Even with the tranny in neutral and the clutch engaged, the internal parts are spinning. This is evident if you ever jack up the rear of a car with the engine running.

Even if the clutch is disengaged, there is enough drag and kinetic motion to keep parts spinning."

The above description means the clutch isn't fully disengaged, even with the clutch pedal floored. There should be no drag or kinetic motion in a vehicle at rest and the transmission disengaged from the drive train. Adjust the free play to properly disengage the clutch mechanism.

"The 914 and 411 manuals didn’t really talk about these issues,………"

That's because the owner and repair manuals aren't basic automotive reference manuals. Most basic automotive books don't even address this unless there's an intermediate/advanced section on drivetrain diagnosis and repair.

However, many posters are correct in their responses. Under the specified conditions: - the TO bearing rotates
- the pressure plate fingers are compressed
- the force of the pressure plate springs are transferred to the flywheel and crank which increases axial load/wear on the thrust surfaces of the crankshaft main bearings.

"No merit whatsoever. Since sometime in the 80s all manual trans cars have a kill switch to prevent one from starting the car without having the clutch released." (referring to crank thrust bearing wear)

The last year of the 914 was 1976. Most cars before then did not have a clutch override switch. The above doesn't apply

"I coast down until the engine is @ idle speed and put in neutral without using the clutch.
At idle speed there is no resistance."

When in gear, the input shaft rotates, clutch engaged or disengaged, vehicle at rest or moving. If you wait until the vehicle stops before shifting out of gear, the still engaged drivetrain should cause the engine to stall (all still connected via the clutch). If you move the lever out of gear w/o the clutch, you're separating parts still under a slight load. Some wear - could be insignificant or not.

To the original poster, Cuda911. It's not automotive heresy to leave the clutch disengaged at idle, but some wear is caused by this strategy. Difficult shifting into 1st is a common occurrence with early, post 901/915 gearboxes. Sometimes,it's a function of adjusting the proper clutch pedal free play. It's also an expedient short cut owners discover to get into gear when a normal shift from neutral>first is balky. It's a common symptom of worn synchros, especially in 1st and 2nd gears. We can save the whys and solutions for another discussion.

True story:
When i first moved to CA from Germany, i went to the DMV to do the driving test to get my CA license.
After i got done with the ride with the examiner, he told me "You almost failed!".
I asked why and he just grinned and handed me his sheet of paper with notes scribbled on the side.
Every single note read "Too fast!".

He laughed, said "Welcome to California" and told me i could keep the paper ...

Usually put it in N when at lights in all my manuals (esp the GT3- that clutch is a killer), and do it with some autos, esp my wife's DSG in her Audi TTS. Gotta figure the drag against the brake isn't that good for the drivetrain.

FrAme that...

While your theory is valid, here are some things to consider.

With the clutch pressed in, the throwout bearing is under pressure. The pressure plate and flywheel is spinning. the disc slides on the shaft and may make contact with either surface, thus spinning the disc and the main shaft. For your theory to work, the disc would need to self center between the pressure plate and flywheel. While it may do this at times, odds of it happening every time is slim.

If the car is stopped, the disc will slip inside the open area between the pressure plate and flywheel and the car will not move as long as the clutch pedal is pressed. The space created is not much wider than the disc itself.

I would challenge you to jacking your car up and test the theory and prove nothing but the flywheel and pressure plate are spinning.

I always go to neutral in my (currently 3) manual trans cars when not in motion. Besides the wear issue, which is what I learned eons ago, it may be somewhat safer for you and your car in the event you get rear-ended while stopped. Hey, I'm old school and even double-clutch downshift sometimes...

For me, it depends on how long I think I'll be stopped at the signal. If it's a RXR crossing (with a train going by), I'll turn the ignition switch of off.

Be cognizant of your surroundings at all times.

I just leave it in gear, clutch is pressed in and I got my foot on the throttle revving the motor for the ladies. My license plate? PNTYDRPR

I bet you also go full throtle on start up, just to make sure the engine is running....

Different from my Subaru, not so different from my 914. I know you're talking mainly about mechanical differences, but speaking in terms of being able to get out of someone's way quickly... My bike is almost always in gear. Being able to move quick saved my bacon at least once in a VW when a dump truck coming up from behind misjudged his stop. He hit the last car in the left turn lane, which would have been me.

I ride BMW's, so dry clutches with a throwout bearing, and I never leave it in gear at lights. I think the IDEA of being able to move is good, but am skeptical. In practice the only place you're going to be able to go is forward, and there's a good chance that will be out into cross-traffic or left into oncoming traffic. So when you see someone coming up behind you in the split-second you have to decide will you look both ways to be sure there aren't cars coming? It's possible, sure, but extremely unlikely, and if you can see it coming it doesn't take THAT long to put it in gear if you need to. Plus we're dealing in hypotheticals so what happens when it's in gear and your clutch cable breaks? Or something hits your hand, a bee stings you (which has happened to me), whatever, forcing you to release the clutch and you lurch out into traffic? Sure it's all hypothetical, but accidents happen and that's no different than a "what if" someone rear-ends you.

On mechanical side any engine rebuilder can tell you if a core engine's come from a manual or automatic transmissioned car, from the wear on the crank thrust bearings. Manual transmissioned cars wear them out, automatics not so much. If you accelerate that wear by leaving the clutch in you'll be rebuilding your engine sooner. No problem, free country, just be aware.

Some very interesting thoughts and comments on this topic, much appreciated.

Ultimately, from what I gather, it is not going to cause my car to implode or spontaneously combust if I keep the clutch in at stop lights on some occasions.

And, certainly, doing it once in awhile should cause zero harm of any sort, so I can tell my buddy who bitched about me holding in the clutch at a light during a 5-minute drive to stuff it.

I do a number of things to increase my chances, e.g. when I pull up behind someone, I leave enough room to pull out if I need to. A geeky way to drive maybe, but like I say, it's paid off. And I can take a bee sting without flinching. :-) I stay out of hypotheticals- if a meteor hits you, then what?
As far as the bike is concerned, if you ride too, you know that if the bike is in gear, you move where you want to almost as fast as you can think it. That's a double edged sword for sure- it's gotten me into and out of trouble more than anyone wants to listen to. In the end, I'm not telling anyone how to drive, just sharing how I drive.