Any electricians out there that can help me with a couple house wiring questions. We're in the closing stages of building our garage add-on. My FIL is a journeyman electricain, but doesn't do Residential and therefore doesn't know the codes.

We're putting a new 200amp service outside the new garage wall that will feed the existing 125amp inside the new garage (outside the old garage). I suspect that will need to run in conduit (or should). My FIL wants to know if we can run 3 #2 wires to feed that old service. All the new wiring will come off the new 200amp service.

Questions about the garage and the Laundry room wiring.

How large do the holes need to be?
Do we need Conduit?
What is the minimum per wall? (we'll probably add more later)
If I put more per wall do you think it will raise concerns of (re)doing electrical calculations?

I know they all have to be GFI protected.
One of my research studies states that only the first in a string needs to be GFI the others can be standard and will pop the first GFI that they all go thru. Something like this.

o/ /========O========O=======O==============O
Breaker GFI std outlet std outlet std outlet

I think my other house was like this. Outlets in the front of the house would pop the GFI at the back Patio.

Do I need to put an outlet on the front car door mini walls?
I'd like to put an exterior outlet there...

Any help would be appreciated. We're getting close to shelter around the Porsches.

Dan (already had it posted on Andrews account. Oh well.)

You can definately daisy chain outlets on a GFI outlet. I don't know about the code stuff though... that's a nightmare. The california additions to the NEC are available online though. You may have local additions as well. It might be worth getting a local guy to swing by and help you figure out what to do - for an hours work or so.

Usually a electrical inspector will swing by and answer all the questions you have.
You are getting it inspected, right?
Geoff

I cant help you with the wire sizing issue or the conduit issue because its a local ruling to a certain extent..

On the GFI issue, in an outdoor location that you will be daisy chaining plugs, i would put in a GFI breaker, versus a plug.

If the plug is outside or in damp conditions it will either corrode and pop, or pop alot more than you like.

I dont trust wet location GFI plugs...they are for convenience versus the breaker...

If the breaker is close by, use a breaker.

Rich

yes i am a master sparky

i will cut and paste answers

quote: I suspect that will need to run in conduit (or should). My FIL wants to know if we can run 3 #2 wires to feed that old service.

does not need to be in pipe unless its under ground or can get damaged, or its single wires.but you can use under ground rated wire then just sleave it to the panels. as for wire size it needs to be sized by branch circuit numbers. which means if copper # 2 are good to 100 amps, i would put the breaker in the new panel at 100 amps and run # 2 hots, a #4 nuetral, and a # 6 ground. thats what is allowed, you could go bigger but the wire prices go up very quickly when you get bigger.there is something with wire size saying #4 is good to 100 amps but most panels say rate wire at 90 degress cel. which bumps you to 80 amps on #4. and it is a sub panel so it needs seperate ground and nuetral

quote How large do the holes need to be?
Do we need Conduit?
What is the minimum per wall? (we'll probably add more later)
If I put more per wall do you think it will raise concerns of (re)doing electrical calculations?

what holes, do you mean for the wires through the studs, if so not so important just dont run more than 3 hots through one hole. you only need pipe if the wire is surface mounted if it is in the walls no you dont. if it is just a laundry room you only really need one, but other wise code is one outlet every 12 feet and with in 6 feet of the door way. as for the calc, good rule is not more 8 devices per 15 amp circuit.

quote :I know they all have to be GFI protected.
One of my research studies states that only the first in a string needs to be GFI the others can be standard and will pop the first GFI that they all go thru.

you only need to gfi outlets that are in unfinished area ie basements, wet areas ie garage, out side, bathrooms,kitchens. if the laundry room is finished it does not need gfi unless it is with 4 ffet of a wash sink. and yes you can daisy chain the out lets off of the load side of the gfi, most say 8 outlets.

as for out side outlets you need a light and an outlet at every entrance, with in use covers ( cost 4 times as much )

give me a call with any other questions

410 534 7319

oh some areas say you need a seperate 20 amp out let for the washer

Lots of great info. Thanks guys.

Yes, we're going the whole inspection route. But they won't help much. They are glad to tell you after you did it wrong, not before.

I'll look for the online stuff, the NEC code is hard to read. Thus the reason for my questions. My helper has a nifty flip chart with the common questions about codes. I'll probably go pick one up to use when he's not around.

I'll look at the GFI breaker, I have a bunch of plugs, so I may just use them. Most will go in the garage, but daisy chaining gives me some options.

Hey sparkey, You're over my head on some of this, but I'm sure my Father-In-Law will know what you mean. He's done commmercial elecrical work for 40+ years.

Yes, it's the drilling thru the studs that I'm asking about. I hope to insulate some of the garage and then cover the walls to keep the noise contained.

I'll have to go back and read this a few more times.

Thanks,
Dan

hollow walls make for wet teener...

Dan,

I am in the process of finishing a project very similar to yours. In addition to a detached garage there is a 800 sq ft apartment above. Garage and apartment is powered by sub panels from a new meter. The service to the property was upgraded to 300 amps and I put in a new service entrance with two new meters, etc. I ended not going with utilizing the full 300 amps due to the same reasons mentioned by Scott - bigger wire is mucho more expensive, I think I needed 0000, not to mention I would not have been able to run wires that big from the weatherhead to the meter box.

I would be happy to answer any questions you have. I am not an electrician but I know the CA code pretty well (the garage/apt is my second major project). I would answer your questions in writing but there are many variables the are better discussed. Please do not hesitate to call me if you still have questions or just want to bounce different ideas off someone.

Jeff
408 943-2955 - work (OK to call, leave message and I will get back to you.)
408 529-9457 - cell (good for the commute hour.)

QUOTE (scruz914 @ Feb 28 2005, 11:08 PM)

I think I needed 0000, not to mention I would not have been able to run wires that big from the weatherhead to the meter box.

thats why for a 300 amp service you either do 2 150's with 2 2/0 sec cables or a 200 for the house and a 100 for the garage with a 4/0 and a # 2 sec cables, and put a disconnect at the house panel. to feed to the garage.

and to dan and jeff, most areas will say a detached building must have a main breaker and ground rods, basicly they want to treat it as a full service, not a sub panel due to its detached status.

QUOTE

We're putting a new 200amp service outside the new garage wall that will feed the existing 125amp

I'm not sure if it applies to garages but I could not keep the existing 125 service when I added on to my previous house. It became a junction to the newer 200A service box. I'd recommend hiring an electrician (even just for advise) in your area just to be sure. I suspect each county has variations or interpretations to the code(s).

Thanks Jeff,
Our run is from the street to the new panel, then feed the old panel. That way we don't have to rewire the house. We'll use the new panel to feed all the new circuits. The distance between the two is only over the top of the 2 car garage.

I would have loved to put an apartment over the top, but budget barely allowed this to happen at all. We're doing this all ourselves.

I'm still sore from roofing all weekend.

QUOTE (Neo914 @ Feb 28 2005, 11:43 PM)

QUOTE We're putting a new 200amp service outside the new garage wall that will feed the existing 125amp I'm not sure if it applies to garages but I could not keep the existing 125 service when I added on to my previous house. It became a junction to the newer 200A service box. I'd recommend hiring an electrician (even just for advise) in your area just to be sure. I suspect each county has variations or interpretations to the code(s).

Yes, I asked the inspector when he was here for the foundation inspection. He said it's fine to feed the old one from the new panel.

QUOTE (scott thacher @ Mar 1 2005, 12:42 AM)

and to dan and jeff, most areas will say a detached building must have a main breaker and ground rods, basicly they want to treat it as a full service, not a sub panel due to its detached status.

It was not a requirement for me but I do have a main breaker at the meter for the garage and ground rods at the main and the garage. I could have run the garage off of a breaker in the main house panel but I wanted the garage/apt to have its own meter.

Dan,
I hear you about the extra for the apt. The new garage/apt combo has been in our saving plans for at least 10 years. Roofing can cause back pain for days. You did the job at the right time of the year though. Summer roofing, especially in your area, can cause the soles to melt right off your shoes!

You can get #2 sheathed so you don't have to run it through conduit. Home Depot has it at some locations. It is not that hard to run single wires through non-metallic conduit over the short distance you are going if you cannot find reasonably priced sheathed wires. If the 2-car garage that you are feeding the house panel through is not finished inside you may want to/have to do that anyway.

You can have as many outlets on a branch circuit as you want. There is a practical limit though depending on how they will be used and the size of the breaker/wire feeding them. You are more concerned with the number of circuits and their deployment within an area. I treat a workbench like a kitchen and alternate the outlets off of two circuits. There is a definite limit on how many downstream outlets can be fed from a GFI outlet as well as a distance limit. A GFI breaker is more expensive but has less limits than a GFI outlet. You should plan for at least one 220 outlet in the working area of the garage. If not already, you may have a need to plug into 220 down the road. You will have plenty of spaces in your new main panel to distribute more than enough circuits in the new garage as well as supply the laundry room and the house sub panel.

-Jeff

Bummer I caught this thread late. I was so excited to see a question I could answer, I got out my code book and started digging in... then I saw all of Scott's posts. Bummer, I was too late.

On those flip books... make sure they're written for the current code. I don't know what CA is using, but MA is now on 2005.

Look at www.mikeholt.com if you're interested in learning come code.

I'm not an electrical engineer, but I play one when my boss isn't around.

QUOTE

and to dan and jeff, most areas will say a detached building must have a main breaker and ground rods, basicly they want to treat it as a full service, not a sub panel due to its detached status.

Every code is different...my house has a 200amp service with a 100amp breaker that goes to my shops (100ft away) 100amp panel. It runs #3 wire (I think thats what the wire # was) underground in a pipe.
The shop has NO ground rods...it all goes back to the house 200amp sevice.
I had a survey (pre inspection) done and this is how the inspector wanted it done. I even offered to put ground rods on my shop and the inspector said "nope".

I did put in a ground rod and attached it to the building...it's all steel and sits on a hill in a lightning zone.

I've seen lightning hit my shop...I only watched for it once though...tad hard on the eyes. Sure makes a hell of a BANG when I do get a strike.
No problems though.

I just wanted to thank everyone for their help. We now have the 200amp service functioning. We ran #2 sheathed wire over to the old service and everyone was happy. I even wired up the service and the plugs.

We're almost there and I can't wait. I have about 4 big jobs to do on my cars and Andrew has a big list to get ready for WCC.

Thanks all for your assistance!


(Next is GAS )

congrats on getting it done and legal