The helmet I have is a Snell 1990 and out of date for PCA events. I noticed some brands of helmets that I've never heard of (mostly M2R and KBC) on ebay and was just wondering if there was anything fundamentally wrong with them. They are advertised as being Snell certified.

Here's one for $50:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAP...item=7958629852

And here's one for $35:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAP...item=7959214364


Please no lectures on the value of my head. If these helmets are truely rated Snell2000 then they should do the job. I'm not racing. I'm only going to be doing AX and some DE. I'd buy a nice SA rated helmet if the SA2005 helmets were on the market already.

As Far as I know there are two ratings, M and SA. M helmets are motorcycle rated and are not tested the same way as SA. For cars you need an SA helmet, and because fewer people race cars than drive motorcycles, they are likely to be more expensive. The cheapest SA2000 helmet I've found (though I haven't looked REALLY hard) is made by G Force and cost about $150 for an openface type.

-Tony

http://www.soloracer.com/aboutgforce.html
http://www.soloracer.com/gfgf750.html

I'm not an expert on helmets but the biggest drawback to buying on line is not being able to try the helmet on. They all don't fit the same even though they are the same size and it could be real uncomfortable and a waste of money if it's too tight and unsafe if its too loose.
Other than size, I imagine that all Snell rated helmets will be equally safe. I would go for a SA for autos rather than a motorcycle one, some organizations won't accept MA.

I've checked and all the organizations accept an M2000 rating. Like I said, I would get an SA helmet if the SA2005 rating was already out. (My understand is that the new helmets come out in October.)

What's your head worth?

#1 difference between SA and M helmets, is that SA use fire retardent materials. This combined with lower volumes are the reasons for the cost difference. I seriously doubt that in any sort of impact, the two helmets would perform much differently (different types of helmets and different brands will perform differently - my point is that the certification shouldn't be a contributing factor to the difference).

For autocross, I use an inexpensive M rated open faced helmet. For me, safety is not a concern. I am probably 100 times as likely to get hurt every time I get on the freeway in my car than I am at the autocross, and since I don't wear a helmet every time I get on the freeway, I'm not concerned about hurting myself at the autocross (actually, I'm in much more danger working the course than driving it). I use the open faced helmet because I prefer it for vision reasons.

But if you plan on going to the track, that is a different story. For very occasional use, I'd use the same helmet. But really, the risks of crashing and getting hurt are much more likely at the track. The helmet is not something I would skimp on. I would go for a closed face quality helmet for track use. If M rated helmets are accepted by the organization you race with, I wouldn't hesitate to get one as I already stated my opinions on that. But I wouldn't go for a $50 helmet online. As Drew pointed out, fit is very important, and you can't do that on-line.

Demick

It's like the ole saying goes;
If you think your head is only worth a hundred bucks, then buy a hundred dollar helmet

The more expensive helmets typically weigh less, sometimes considerably less, so if you don’t have reasonably well developed neck muscles or will be in the car for long periods it can really pay off to spend the extra money. From a safety standpoint, a lighter helmet will have less inertia in an accident and therefore be less likely to cause whiplash or other such injuries. It really is crucial to try them on; it needs to be fairly snug without being painful. Just my opinions of course.

QUOTE (smg914 @ Mar 3 2005, 07:58 PM)

If you think your head is only worth a hundred bucks, then buy a hundred dollar helmet

I'm tired of this argument. It's not an intelligent arguement. I'm talking about Snell approved helmets that are approved by the PCA.

So how much is your head worth? Did you buy a $700 top of the line helmet and $1000 of Nomex wear to wrap yourself in. Did you spend another $1500 on a full roll cage, harnesses and all the goodies? How about a fuel cell because your gas tank could explode. Maybe throw in a complete fire suppression system to put out the fire after the explosion.

At some point you have to draw the line. I'm not ready to spend $3K+ on equipment and clothing to do DE events when all that is required is a Snell approved helmet and standard seat belts. With the "how much is your head worth" arguement nobody would be doing a DE without $3000 worth of equipment. Nonsense.

I think most people would suggest that you are probably safer at a DE than you are on the freeway.

Point taken on helmet fit. I realize lighter is better but I probably won't spend the $300+ required to get a light helmet untill I really get into DE and decide that it's my thing.

FWIW, I've also found cheap SA rated helmets. Usually factory-second blemished Pyrotech helmets. I assume that Pyrotech helmets are made by Bell since the corporate head quarters for both companies is the same and that there are both Pyrotech and Bell helmets that look identical. The Pyrotech though are usually a lot cheaper.

I should probably go to a motorcycle shop and try some on. I wasn't actually considering buying the two helmets I listed. They are just an example of Snell rated helmets that I've never heard of. Of course I could probably only name 3 different brands of helmets.

I bought a full face w/flip shield for $50 bucks and used their chart for sizing. It fit well and did what it was supposed to do...covered their ass on insurance.

If I were still into road-racing, I would buy the $300 helmet.

Sheesh..........

Oh, it's a motorcycle helmet..Snell 2000....

I got my Pyrotect ( Bell ) helmet at Wine Country Motorsports at Sears last year for around $150.

Nice to have a custom fitted lid.

KT

QUOTE (anthony @ Mar 3 2005, 07:33 PM)

QUOTE (smg914 @ Mar 3 2005, 07:58 PM) If you think your head is only worth a hundred bucks, then buy a hundred dollar helmet I'm tired of this argument. It's not an intelligent arguement. I'm talking about Snell approved helmets that are approved by the PCA.

I agree. For AX, you dont need a $500 helmet to protect your priceless head. Road Racing, that is a different story. When you are experiencing large ammounts of G's, a heavy (read: cheap) helmet gets very stressful on your neck, but that is not something AX'ers need to really be conserned about. F1 drivers, yes

One last note....going down on a motorcycle, your gourd is gonna bounce a shit pile more than smacking something or rolling with a car.

I'd be VERY surprised if any region of the PCA would allow an M rated helmet for DE's.
A/X can go either way for some reason that I don't understand. SA rated helmets are also
rated for one bounce, IE a rollbar...Our DE chairman did a ton of research for DE Faq for our
last newsletter.

Anthony, I'd feel more comfortable with you using your SA2000 helmet and waiting for the SA05
than using an M rated helmet.

Be safe!

QUOTE (anthony @ Mar 3 2005, 10:33 PM)

QUOTE (smg914 @ Mar 3 2005, 07:58 PM) If you think your head is only worth a hundred bucks, then buy a hundred dollar helmet I'm tired of this argument. It's not an intelligent arguement. I'm talking about Snell approved helmets that are approved by the PCA. So how much is your head worth? Did you buy a $700 top of the line helmet and $1000 of Nomex wear to wrap yourself in. Did you spend another $1500 on a full roll cage, harnesses and all the goodies? How about a fuel cell because your gas tank could explode. Maybe throw in a complete fire suppression system to put out the fire after the explosion. At some point you have to draw the line. I'm not ready to spend $3K+ on equipment and clothing to do DE events when all that is required is a Snell approved helmet and standard seat belts. With the "how much is your head worth" arguement nobody would be doing a DE without $3000 worth of equipment. Nonsense. I think most people would suggest that you are probably safer at a DE than you are on the freeway.

The way you posed your question ("Is there anything wrong w/ an inexpensive helmet?), you were looking for a counter argument. That's just one them.

I'm sure whatever you end up buying is something you'll be comfortable with, all factors considered.

Helmets work by dispersing the impact from a point at the outside of the helmet to a wide area inside the helmet. They do this by progressively delaminating in wider and wider areas through the thickness of the shell, from the outside of the shell to the inside. Once the shock wave gets to the inside of the shell it should be widely distributed and hopefully, largely attenuated through the energy required to delaminate the fg. The reamining impact is then distributed to the styrofoam lining and on to your skull. Since helmets work by delamination, helmets work only once; after that they are garbage. Dropping a helmet from your hip (or off the car roof) to the tarmac is pretty much enough to render it worthless. For this reason, you are nuts to buy a used helmet. You simply do not know how it was treated.

Also, the lifespan of a helmet, given all considerations (vibration causes the lining to compress, sunlight makes the lining become brittle and does different things to the construction of different companies' shells, ditto sweat, wearing the thing makes the lining compress, etc.) is generally accepted to be five years.

The money spent in a better helmet goes to better fit, lightness, interior lining (perceived quality and comfort), finish, ease/convenience of changing face shields, ventilation, etc., but it has very little to do with safety or protection so long as you are buying a Snell rated helmet. (DOT rating is crap.)

Oh, an M rated helmet is accepted by nearly all (if not all) PCA regions for DE.

I had a cheep helmet that worked just fine until I had a 60mph get-off on my motorcycle. I had a headache for a week...

The best advice I can give you Anothny is to buy the best you can afford and make sure it fits well enough that you could wear it for hours.

Pat

One argument for a cheap helmet is filling it with a cheap head.



I quallify, I'll go first!



Ok, hit me.


M

QUOTE (anthony @ Mar 3 2005, 07:33 PM)

It's not an intelligent arguement.

so, if you buy a $50 helmet you're a cheap bastard because you only value your head at $50 ...

but if you spend $500 on a helmet, you're .... well what are you, really?
a guy who values his head at $500 !!!

now, if you ask me (or even if you don't) i'd say BOTH guys are selling their heads WAY TO CHEAP !!!
i wouldn't give my head to anyone for $500. or $5000. or $50k ...

that argument just doesn't make sense ...
Andy

I have personally tested over 6 helmets. They were all the cheapo ones, and all performed flawlessly, except the one that was too big. Size deffinetly matters. I ride a motorcycle most days and have for 10 years in all kindsof weather and traffic. I finally bought a new helmet a couple of months ago and it was a $50 HJC, just like the others. Looks good, last long time.

What I did have a concern about, however, was the use of polycarbonate vs. a plastic alloy. The alloy ones are dirt cheap, and actually do not give me a safe feeling.

$.02

QUOTE (seanery @ Mar 3 2005, 09:02 PM)

I'd be VERY surprised if any region of the PCA would allow an M rated helmet for DE's.

I have experience with regions that allow 'M' helmets and regions that don't.

QUOTE (SLITS @ Mar 3 2005, 07:59 PM)

One last note....going down on a motorcycle, your gourd is gonna bounce a shit pile more than smacking something or rolling with a car.

Well, no, not really. And I speak from experience here. I managed to destroy 6 or 7 motorcycle helmets in my misguided yoof racing them. You tend to smack it into the ground once and scrape it up nicely dragging it on the pavement. If you hit anything really hard with your helmet, you nearly always get neck injuries, too. Bike crashes generally involve just one hard impact (with the ground).

I always wore a bike helmet when doing AX, since I had plenty of them on hand.

I agree that the $50 helmet, $50 head line is lame and stupid. The Snell ratings are very well thought out, and if it passes those, no worries. More expensive helmets don't generally protect your head any better, they're just more comfortable. I typically bought helmets in the $250-300 range (and this was 12-15 years ago) because I was usually going to wear them for hours at a time. The good ones are also more aerodynamic so you don't get lift at speed, and a lot less buffeting. The difference in noise level between a good helmet and a bad one is amazing, even with -33dB earplugs in place.

For AX only use, just about anything the rules makers will allow is plenty good enough. You'll wear it for 2-3 minutes at a throw, and noise simply isn't an issue. It does have to fit if it will stay on your head in the unlikely event you'll actually need it. If you're going to also use it for track events, I might spring for something a tad better than the bottom of the barrel, if only because you'll wear it for longer at a time. I also much prefer full-face helmets, if only because I've managed to avoid nasty chin and facial injuries because of them. I'd hate to eat the steering wheel or the door frame.

As I understand them, Snell does have different impact tests for M v. SA helmets, as well as the flame retardant aspect. The SA rules assumes many smaller impacts as your head bounces off the roll cage. The M rules mirror my experience: one hard impact. The rules for things like eyeport size on full-face helmets are also different, with SA helmets having much smaller ports, which can be a problem if you wear glasses.

My own personal bias would be to buy an M rated Shoei or Arai helmet, in plain white, at a bike store. However, that's the biker in me talking, not the cheap 914 owner. I have an SA Bieffe now I bought for karting that's as comfortable as either, and was actually cheaper. There's a place in the East Bay somewhere called Helmet City that has a nice website.

Beware - I have seen Helmets marked SNELL APPROVED, but there is NO sticker inside - which means ther ARE NOT APPROVED. They MUST have the dated SNELL sticker inside.

Ken

QUOTE (riverman @ Mar 3 2005, 09:35 PM)

The way you posed your question ("Is there anything wrong w/ an inexpensive helmet?), you were looking for a counter argument. That's just one them.

If I could re-phrase the question it would be:

Is a Snell 2000 certified helmet that costs $50 any less safe than a $500 helmet with the same certification. So far nobody with the "is your head only worth $50" argument has presented any facts suggesting that the more expensive would be safer.

I certainly understand issues of fit, lightness, high tech materials, etc. And thanks to those have provided intelligent discussion on the issue.

QUOTE (PatW @ Mar 3 2005, 08:50 PM)

I had a cheep helmet that worked just fine until I had a 60mph get-off on my motorcycle. I had a headache for a week...   Pat

pat i would say a 60 mile per hour dismount, with only a headache to me means the helmet did its job. i bet blacktop would do a nice job of removing skin, hair, scalp, and other soft tissues at 60 mph.

and yes i used to have a bike till a mustang gt decided he did not like me passing him, and decided to put me in to a curb at 45 mph. i never even hit my head, after a 20 foot roll on grass and a 40 foot slide on black top, i guess i am lucky the curb on the other side of the road stopped me. well that is before a car traveling the other way did.

nothing like leather, as well as finally becoming the second part of the motorcycle rule... 2 types of riders, ones that have been down and those that will be

opps high jack

who cares sa or m, if it fits and you can use it, but what you are comfortable wearing, both rating and fit

Decided to go for the $99 helmet as a stop gap until SA2005 helmets come out. That also depends on whether I become a regular at DEs otherwise I think this helmet will be fine for AX.

It's a KBC TK-9 Fazer with Snell M2000 certification (and sticker of course).

If you are looking for a deal, seach ebay. There's a guy there with blowout prices on lots of helmets. Everywhere else this helmet goes for $180:

http://www.motorcycle-superstore.com/item....=101&Division=1

QUOTE (anthony @ Mar 25 2005, 09:07 PM)

Decided to go for the $99 helmet as a stop gap until SA2005 helmets come out. That also depends on whether I become a regular at DEs otherwise I think this helmet will be fine for AX.

Looks fine to me, as long as it fits your noggin well enough.

QUOTE (scott thacher @ Mar 3 2005, 10:52 PM)

QUOTE (PatW @ Mar 3 2005, 08:50 PM) I had a cheep helmet that worked just fine until I had a 60mph get-off on my motorcycle. I had a headache for a week...   Pat pat i would say a 60 mile per hour dismount, with only a headache to me means the helmet did its job. i bet blacktop would do a nice job of removing skin, hair, scalp, and other soft tissues at 60 mph.

Ya but, it was a cheep 45$ special. No more cheep Helmets for me. I still own my Arai RX-7 and my motorcycle leathers. Need to get back into bikes sometime soon..

Opps, thread hi-jack.. Sorry Anthony.

QUOTE (seanery @ Mar 3 2005, 11:02 PM)

I'd be VERY surprised if any region of the PCA would allow an M rated helmet for DE's. A/X can go either way for some reason that I don't understand. SA rated helmets are also rated for one bounce, IE a rollbar...Our DE chairman did a ton of research for DE Faq for our last newsletter.

Wow!
We had our Region "Conference" a couple weeks ago...National says DE's can use M rated helmets and short-sleeved shirts. We have decided not to allow them at our DE's, but it seems like you may be able to use them in most other regions. Also, there is a new helmet rating "K"...you guessed it, it's a go-kart helmet...just another to throw in the mix. It's the same standard as the SA rated helmets except without the nomex.

Oh Garold, stop acting like you weren't born with that thing on...



Breech, most likely.


M

QUOTE (anthony @ Mar 3 2005, 07:33 PM)

QUOTE (smg914 @ Mar 3 2005, 07:58 PM) If you think your head is only worth a hundred bucks, then buy a hundred dollar helmet I'm tired of this argument. It's not an intelligent arguement. I'm talking about Snell approved helmets that are approved by the PCA.

That's not a specious argument. I'm involved with manufacturing industrial safety equpment that's required to meet OSHA and ANSI standards. There is a HUGE difference in our industry between the high end, where good quality products not only meet but exceed those standards, and the low-buck junk that occasionally kills people. The cheap stuff will (usually) meet the minimums needed to pass the tests, but if it's subjected to the impact at a slightly different angle or velocity than is specified in the test procedures, the kind of thing that happens in real life, then all bets are off. The good stuff is designed to actually protect people, the cheap stuff is designed to 1) pass the tests, and 2) be cheap.

We don't make helmets, so this isn't directly applicable, but please don't conclude that just because something complies with the minimum standards that it's as good as anything else that meets those same minimums. That's absolutely not true. It's good that we have standards, just keep in mind that they're MINIMUM standards. Better products are just that, better.

Sorry about that, I just needed to rant. You can probably tell that we manufacture some of those better products. That being said, I don't imagine that in autocrosses or DE events you'll ever get into a situation where you'd need more than minimum protection anyway, but if and when you ever get more serious then please be more serious.

Anthony, You said Why spend $3,000 on equipment to do DE's when all that is required is a Snell helmet and stock belts. To assume that high speed driving is safer than driving on the highway is a pretty blind statement. I've been instructing at De's and working for Skip Barber since 1988 and have seen many situations where the additional equipment was crucial to the health and well being of the individual. I can understand about having to budget where your money goes. I believe for A/X you are fine, but when it comes to DE's, don't take shortcuts especially with a 30 year car. Upgrade your car as budget allows with brakes, belts, etc. and upgrade yourself with instruction. I'm not saying run out and go to a Driving school tomorrow, but take advantage of your DE's instructors. It's amazing to me that our region people rush to get to the Solo group and then forget how to drive. We pull our new instructors from this Solo group and it crazy that some just don't have a clue. From an instructors standpoint, it is gratifying to have a student who wants to learn vs a guy trying to show he's the next Andretti.
T.C.

QUOTE

I don't imagine that in autocrosses or DE events

Paul,

Great explanation concerning cheaper models meeting minimal standards and there is no question you are right.

My only concern with your explanation is the reference to DE events. While AX is relatively safe, except for the "sleepy" course workers, you absolutely could get into trouble at DE events. Our club runs DE events at tracks like Sears Point, ThunderHill, ButtonWillow and others.

Ask a Sears Point expert like Rich Bontempi, who knows and can drive that "technical track" as good as anyone, his opinion on whether DE events are totally safe. While the events are run carefully, with safety as an absolute priority, you’re still going very fast around portions of the track that have big concrete wall.

On a 10 scale, with AX being a 1, in regards to potential hazards, my guess is that a DE event would be at least a 5, i.e., it’s something you have to take seriously, and certainly the event organizers run DE events that way.

Randal

No argument from me. Safety equipment is one of those things that you're infinitely better off overdoing. It's too late to change your thinking when you're in the middle of an "oh shit!" situation. And don't be selfish and think only about yourself, try thinking if would be acceptable to put one of your children into that equipment in one of those situations. After all they'd miss you as much as you'd miss them, and either way you're the person who's responsible.

Again, I apologize for the rant... I just have strong feelings about this one.