Hi All. I posted this over on Pelican, thought it might be relevant here too.

I know there have been many discussions on the safety putting a roll bar/cage in a street driven car. I am not a racer, so it really didn't pertain to me at all. However, yesterday I saw first hand the injuries that can occur.

16 year old girl driving her dads Miata with him in the passenger seat. There is speculation that she was driving on her permit, practicing for her drivers license. She was driving at a slow speed, simply making a right hand turn on to a side street. She clipped the curb - something we all have done. Curb was tall enough that it shook the car pretty good (again, speculation, but knowing the corner I would guess a wheel would have been bent and the car knocked out of alignment ).

Both are in the hospital with concussions, one of them needed several stiches from injuries caused by their heads impacting the roll bar.

I don't know if the dad autocrossed the car or what, or if the bar was just for looks. I do know the car had stock seat belts.

Scary stuff.

I drive my car as little on the street as possible since it has a cage. But that is a BIG no-no. If it has a cage, it gets proper harnesses, no questions.

sad story...
I hope there is no further medical complications
a brain injury over a driving lesson would be a terrible outcome

Proper padding and non-retractable seat belts are a must for a street car with a cage.

^^^That^^^

I suppose you shouldn't be using a helmet as rollbar protection? It doesn't make much sense to me that you would use one safety device to protect yourself from another safety device.

Wut?

With proper padding, a rollbar is not more dangerous than any other hard object in a car made of, wait for it, mostly metal!

Take any car with a fixed roof, remove the padding/plastic/cover from the frame above the door and what do you see? Metal ...

The rollbar in my 914 is no closer to my head than the door frame in my 2002 Jetta. Or 2012 Tiguan. Plenty of places to hit with my head in those cars.

And i don't see anyone here driving around with a helmet in their daily driver. Well, except Larmo maybe ...

My impression was you shouldn't use a roll bar without a helmet. Like I said, that doesn't make much sense, since they are both intended to protect you. Your comment about the belts and padding makes more sense.

A bar needs to be padded and ideally not within head contact by harness fitment, seat placement, padding or other methods.

You sure about that? When you put a rollbar or cage into any car by definition it's inside the existing sheet metal, meaning you've reduced the clearance inside the sides and below the roof, in all directions closer to your head. Comparing Jettas to 914's is apples and oranges, the only correct comparison is Jetta with roll bar and Jetta without, or 914 with and without. If your head is closer to something rigid there's more likelihood first that it will be hit in an impact, and then that the impact be of more force. Same car, less clearance, means more risk and more damage.

Reasons to have a roll bar/cage in your street car.
1. To protect you when your car rolls over. (Make sure it's well padded).
2. To add rigidity to the chassis.
3. To make you look like "Joe Cool / Ricky Racer".

I remember going down hill tobogganing (holds 4) and one guy brought a helmet.
4 riders, one with helmet, no way.

If there's a roll bar looking at your forehead in a 914, put on a helmet.

I can't wait to see a guy driving down the street in the 914 with the helmet on.

If you are going to do all the work to put in a roll bar, you should put in a 5 pt. harness and proper seats to keep you from flopping around. In most states it is illegal to drive with a helmet on.

I've seen it. On the way home from an AX down 101. Looks funny

Yes, i am. Last time i checked, my 914 didn't have any metal above the door from the factory, so no, it's not apples and oranges.
The cage adds metal where a sedan already has metal.
Which makes this a valid comparison.

I did in fact compare the head clearance between the cage in my 914 and my other two cars, the Jetta and Tiguan (Yes, i'm weird that way) and they are pretty much the same.

Wait, Andy, you say the 914 has no metal above the door from the factory, but you're going to add some there, spaced so it's even closer to your head, and that's going to be as safe as before, when there was none? Sorry, I don't follow.

He is SAYING that the metal that is NOW in his 914 is NO CLOSER than the METAL in his other cars.
I also have more headroom in my 914 than in ANY of my other cars except my Suburban.

I have a full rollcage in my car that I drive on the street.
It is covered everywhere that my head or arms could make contact with the expensive high density SFI rated foam padding.
Everywhere else it has the less expensive low density foam.
It is difficult to see any piece of my roll structure metal because it is ALL covered.

Finally, apparently i DO sometimes make sense (to some people) ...

Stu, just Stu.

That's totally irrelevant. The comparison is the change you make to the SAME car when you put in a bar or cage, from before to after. You've just 1) put metal where there was no metal before, and 2) moved the contact point closer to your unprotected head. Both of those things mean that car, whether it's a 914 or a Suburban, is less safe than it was before it got the cage.


Yeah, but that's a little like me saying "Don't worry, I'm going to hit you in the head with this aluminum baseball bat, but it'll be O.K. because I'll wrap it in high density SFI rated foam padding." Look, it's a free country and you can do whatever you like, but being hit in the head with a baseball bat, wrapped in foam or not, is not going to turn out well. That's a reasonable statement, isn't it?

Sure, it's also possible that the cage may save your life in an accident, but I think statistics (from studies of airbags) all suggest you're far, far more likely to die of head trauma from contacting something inside the cabin than you are from any type of structural collapse. Means the odds are really not in your favor when you put even more rigid metal points of contact into the cabin, especially close to your head, covered with foam or not.

But on the other hand 914's aren't logical or that safe to begin with, and cages are cool, so do what you want.

No, it's not irrelevant.
It just means you're making a big argument out of something that really isn't a big deal.

I don't see you telling everyone who owns a sedan how they're going to die a horrible death because there is metal in their car roof.

But I never said that, Andy. Did you read the first post in this thread? Bumped a curb and two people in the hospital? That's not a big enough deal? Like I said, do whatever you want, but people do get hurt so don't make that choice without at least knowing the issues. That's not fair? You think it's better to not talk about it at all?

It is a moot point because my 914 is "required" to have a full roll cage.

You could also lecture me because I rebuilt my entire brake system myself.
Some on this forum would argue that, that is too dangerous and "leave it to the professionals"

I guess I just like to live on the edge (like driving a car with no ABS or air bags....).

But that wasn't in a 914 and we don't know how that cage was build and how far their heads were from the cage and if it was padded.

That's A LOT of unknowns to make such a blanket statement!


What i am telling you is that in my car my head is no closer to my (padded) roll bar than it is to (covered) solid metal in my daily driver sedan.

I still have no idea why you insist that one somehow is going to kill me while the other one is perfectly acceptable?

This has been a very educational thread. I just want to thank you all for all the great information.

Too bad you won't remember any of it tomorrow ...

Color glossy photos with measurements would have been helpful.

Not really. Without a roll bar there was nothing there for their heads to hit. They added a bar TO THE SAME CAR, there was then something for their head to hit and they hit their heads. IN THE SAME CAR. They changed the car and the change made it less safe.


Yes, you did say that, but again, the comparison I've made has been in the SAME car. Before adding a bar (in any car) there's clearance, adding the bar reduces the clearance IN THAT SAME CAR, so your head can then hit where it wouldn't have before IN THAT SAME CAR. It's had a hazzard added so in that aspect is less safe than it was before.


I never said that even once, so certainly never insisted. From the beginning I've said that adding a bar or cage changes and reduces the clearance IN THE SAME CAR. Your other car can have airbags, be the Queen Mary or a blimp, it's irrelevant because I'm talking about the addition of a bar/cage changing the configuration IN THAT SAME CAR.

Look, you don't get anything for free. A roll cage can make your car stiffer, may protect better from being t-boned, from rollover and so on. But to get something you have to give up something, and that something is contact with your head. If that works for you, great, as long as you're aware of it and accept it it's not a problem, but it's not rational to pretend that it doesn't exist.

Elliot's yellow car had a full cage. Maybe he bumped his head. Is that why he has a bad memory?

But why is the exact same distance a hazard "IN THE SAME CAR" but not in another car?

I just don't get it ...

Why did my 914 become less safe when the distance from the rollbar to my head is no closer than the distance from the door-frame on my Jetta to my head?

What makes that same distance an acute "you're going to die" hazard in a 914 but not in a Jetta?
I am profoundly confused by your logic.

You fully accept the margin of hazard in my Jetta but when i add something to my 914 that brings me within the same margin of hazard, it's instagib brainmush unsafe at any speed.

I Would think hitting a roll bar. with your head is a bit different then hitting something else

If your head hits metal at speed, any metal, it's not good. Thank heavens I had my helmet on - thank you Shoei.
Is there a standard for foam density when covering a roll bar? I have an idea of what I'd want - possibly something around the compression factor of a wrestling mat but if there's a race approved density factor that is a standard out there, that's what I would want. Cover it with Alcantara if you want for a finished appeal or something of your liking and you'd be set!

factory 959

Its certainly nothing to do flippantly. I rebuilt my roll cage to eliminate the possibility of contact while strapped into the 6-point harness. I wouldn't risk riding in a caged car on the street otherwise. Padding or not - a bar could cause catastrophic injuries. Not worth it.

PS: Scott - I see allot of Miatas with roll bars (I believe they generally are for looks) and it does cause me some concern too. Funny how you can take the "girliest" car ever made and put so many bars in them...

T

With any luck I won't.

There was LOTS of padding in that one. As far as I can remember.

Miata roll bars are much scarier to me than almost all 914 cages/bars. To fit under the soft top they need to be very low/close to the driver. One of my friends bought a Miata with one so low I could hit my head on while buckled in without the added force of a collision, etc. That's my definition of dangerous.

I occasionally take my car on public roads with the cage. It has racing seats and 6-point harnesses. The applicable tubes have SFI padding. Really, for what I do the main worry is a high-speed crash or roll, whether on track or on road, where the entire car and its occupants are in grave jeopardy. Therefore I'd rather have the cage's protection even with some small added risk of probs in a low-speed incident.

The same is true with my 997 and I'm seriously contemplating a half-cage/rollbar in that. It is purely a pleasure vehicle at this point and may see some track duty later. To me it makes sense.

This has been brought up many times before. It's a good reminder for idiots.. There's also another thread about driving on old tires or keeping the original fuel lines.
Darwin and Murphy are alive and well. If you install a non padded roll cage in a street car and use stock retractable seat belts, then you get what you deserve.

I didn't say that Andy, you did. Re-read the first post. The discussion was about wisdom of adding a bar or cage to a street car, in other words modifying the SAME car, before and after. I have no idea about Jettas, but wasn't your Jetta designed by an engineer specifically for passenger survivability? Different seats and belts? Cabin crush differently? More and different pladding inside, all different materials? Have airbags? In fact EVERYTHING about the car acting differently in a crash? It's not as simple as clearance distance, your question is about apples to oranges, and the answer is 'who knows?' Which is why the discussion was about putting a roll bar into a street car and not why Jettas are safer than 914's. That's a totally different discussion.


Again, I never talked about Jettas. But by the same before/after logic if you did add a roll cage to your Jetta you're creating exactly the same situation with your Jetta, by reducing clearances. More hazard than a 914? I don't know, can't know, you'd need to talk to someone else about that. But more hazzard in the Jetta with the cage than without? Before and after? Yes, the same logic applies, and worse, if you block the Jetta's airbags.

My point has been that with that modification you're reducing clearances in THAT car, be it 914 or Jetta, which, by itself, makes THAT car less safe, before and after. In a race car you have a race seat, restricting movement, race belts, restricting movement, and a helmet, for exactly the type of impact described in the first post. If you add all those things to the street car along with the bar/cage then yes, safer. Without them the bar/cage adds a new safety hazard to the same car.

I didn't invent any of this, you know it all already because it's conventional wisdom. So is conventional wisdom incorrect? How is that?

You are generalizing so much that you miss the fact that a roll bar is a SAFETY DEVICE in the first place.

The Same argument could be made about a fire extinguisher: "In an accident a fire extinguisher could come out of it's hold-down bracket and hit you in the head, therefore having a fire extinguisher makes the car less safe"




Exactly! I will trade the slim change of hitting my head against rollover protection any day. I actually HAVE rolled a car before.
I have never clipped a curb and nearly snapped my head off.

In fact could one make the argument that if the rollbar had not been there to stop their heads, both passengers MIGHT have had more serious neck injuries. You don't know do you?

The End

They wonder the same thing Miata guys that is.....
Safety of roll-bar on the street - any hard data?
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&a...119745492,d.amc

At least everyone is enthusiastic about this discussion, really there's no easy answer to weather to cage or not on the street.. Personal preferance really, I've been a Firefighter/Parameddic for 20+ years now and I really wish I could forget about some of the things I've seen and had to work on,accidents never come out like you'd expect, I've had Honda car vs suburban where the Honda rolled the suburban over and killed the driver, I could go on and on with stories... I'll say I'd rather go with a well built padded cage than nothing in an old car like a 914.. The new cars full of air bags are much better now....