1) I'm replacing the door window seals on my 1970 and was sent two sets from Stoddard. One set has a decidedly wider base than the other. Sorry, no pics to provide right now.
I looked in Anderson's "authenticity" guide and the author points out that seals used at the top of the window were redesigned at some point (1973 ??) to add an extra lip, presumably for better sealing, but I could find no reference to any difference in the seals used at the base of the door windows. I also tried searching the "originality" forum threads here and came up empty on this detail. I'm assuming the base width is an earlier vs. later car thing and that the narrower based seals are correct for a 1970, but guidance from someone who knows or pointer to a thread on this subject would be greatly appreciated. Also, I'm guessing likely not, but any possibility there's a -4, -6 difference here?
2) All 914 engine bay shots I've seen don't show a firewall pad. Was this something Porsche elected not to use on the 914 line? And if so, does anybody know why? Mostly curious, because it seems like an odd thing to omit unless there was a good reason. Both from a safety and noise standpoint. Perhaps the fan intake bulge made for a difficult shape?
Thanks in advance.
- MR
Full Version: Window Seals and firewall pad.
MR -
I put my answers in blue below your questions....
PS - Jeff Bowlsby's website & p914 are other good originality resources:
http://bowlsby.net/914/Classic/
http://p914.com/
Good Luck!
Tom
///////
1) I'm replacing the door window seals on my 1970 and was sent two sets from Stoddard. One set has a decidedly wider base than the other. Sorry, no pics to provide right now.
I looked in Anderson's "authenticity" guide and the author points out that seals used at the top of the window were redesigned at some point (1973 ??) to add an extra lip, presumably for better sealing, but I could find no reference to any difference in the seals used at the base of the door windows. I also tried searching the "originality" forum threads here and came up empty on this detail.
>> That's the Targa top seal at the window, which was for sure changed by 73 MY, & maybe 72 MY as well, IIRC. Your 70 would be the early or plain one. Yes, they were changed for better sealing - the late ones rarely leaked when the top was in place correctly, & windows were up tight all the way & properly adjusted & without play from age or alignment (my 73 never leaked in 10 years & 132k miles of DD).
I'm assuming the base width is an earlier vs. later car thing and that the narrower based seals are correct for a 1970, but guidance from someone who knows or pointer to a thread on this subject would be greatly appreciated.
>> I thought they were both the same, but if different, just test the proper with to get a good clean "scrape" on interior & exterior surfaces with your window in place & fully up. They don't really "seal" as much as to scrape/squeegee off the water or fog from the glass surfaces & to limit the flow to mostly outside (same on any car really). The key is to make sure that the weep holes in the bottom of the door cavity are kept clean & rust/debris free for drainage, & to also check behind the outer door seals that they're not holding water & rusting the channel. A new paint job with good rust treatment of the sheet metal & well bonded epoxy primer will do a lot on these old "tin worm fodder" cars to prevent that rust issue on the doors.
Also, I'm guessing likely not, but any possibility there's a -4, -6 difference here?
>> No difference on windows & tops seals 4 to 6, as ALL bodies were made by Karmann, & -6's shipped to Stuttgart for driveline, suspension/brakes, instruments, etc.
2) All 914 engine bay shots I've seen don't show a firewall pad. Was this something Porsche elected not to use on the 914 line? And if so, does anybody know why? Mostly curious, because it seems like an odd thing to omit unless there was a good reason. Both from a safety and noise standpoint. Perhaps the fan intake bulge made for a difficult shape?
>> NO - ALL 914s did have a engine wall pad on the engine side, which was a rubberized coated sisal or something like that. Look at the pix in the nailed O&H thread called "The few, the rare..." for your references to what was in them from the factory (& some dealer added options/accsy. There are better aftermarket engine bay pads out there now which won't hold water like the sisal did against the firewall & lip to rust it out - especially on the early raintrays for 70-74 (& on all -6's had no raintray due to air cleaner box clearance issue) which would warp due to engine heat at the front edge L & R then run a waterfall onto the pad in a heavier rain than the 2 funnel tubes could handle (don't ask me how I know
).
>> FYI - Here in PCA Zone 8 none of us judges will gig you points for non-original parts like the pads, SS HEs, etc. - especially when so much is NLA now &/or improvements over OE design flaws/shortcomings (they too had to design to a price point then) - & I think it's the same in all other zones, since originality is only judged at national Parade CdEs - & it often doesn't come into play there either, except for an occasional challenge. With so many Porsche models out there now, it's impossible for volunteer judges to know all the original specs for every model/sub- of each car anyway.
Thanks in advance.
- MR
I put my answers in blue below your questions....
PS - Jeff Bowlsby's website & p914 are other good originality resources:
http://bowlsby.net/914/Classic/
http://p914.com/
Good Luck!
Tom
///////
QUOTE(mountainroads @ May 25 2016, 10:49 AM) 
1) I'm replacing the door window seals on my 1970 and was sent two sets from Stoddard. One set has a decidedly wider base than the other. Sorry, no pics to provide right now.
I looked in Anderson's "authenticity" guide and the author points out that seals used at the top of the window were redesigned at some point (1973 ??) to add an extra lip, presumably for better sealing, but I could find no reference to any difference in the seals used at the base of the door windows. I also tried searching the "originality" forum threads here and came up empty on this detail.
>> That's the Targa top seal at the window, which was for sure changed by 73 MY, & maybe 72 MY as well, IIRC. Your 70 would be the early or plain one. Yes, they were changed for better sealing - the late ones rarely leaked when the top was in place correctly, & windows were up tight all the way & properly adjusted & without play from age or alignment (my 73 never leaked in 10 years & 132k miles of DD).
I'm assuming the base width is an earlier vs. later car thing and that the narrower based seals are correct for a 1970, but guidance from someone who knows or pointer to a thread on this subject would be greatly appreciated.
>> I thought they were both the same, but if different, just test the proper with to get a good clean "scrape" on interior & exterior surfaces with your window in place & fully up. They don't really "seal" as much as to scrape/squeegee off the water or fog from the glass surfaces & to limit the flow to mostly outside (same on any car really). The key is to make sure that the weep holes in the bottom of the door cavity are kept clean & rust/debris free for drainage, & to also check behind the outer door seals that they're not holding water & rusting the channel. A new paint job with good rust treatment of the sheet metal & well bonded epoxy primer will do a lot on these old "tin worm fodder" cars to prevent that rust issue on the doors.
Also, I'm guessing likely not, but any possibility there's a -4, -6 difference here?
>> No difference on windows & tops seals 4 to 6, as ALL bodies were made by Karmann, & -6's shipped to Stuttgart for driveline, suspension/brakes, instruments, etc.
2) All 914 engine bay shots I've seen don't show a firewall pad. Was this something Porsche elected not to use on the 914 line? And if so, does anybody know why? Mostly curious, because it seems like an odd thing to omit unless there was a good reason. Both from a safety and noise standpoint. Perhaps the fan intake bulge made for a difficult shape?
>> NO - ALL 914s did have a engine wall pad on the engine side, which was a rubberized coated sisal or something like that. Look at the pix in the nailed O&H thread called "The few, the rare..." for your references to what was in them from the factory (& some dealer added options/accsy. There are better aftermarket engine bay pads out there now which won't hold water like the sisal did against the firewall & lip to rust it out - especially on the early raintrays for 70-74 (& on all -6's had no raintray due to air cleaner box clearance issue) which would warp due to engine heat at the front edge L & R then run a waterfall onto the pad in a heavier rain than the 2 funnel tubes could handle (don't ask me how I know
).>> FYI - Here in PCA Zone 8 none of us judges will gig you points for non-original parts like the pads, SS HEs, etc. - especially when so much is NLA now &/or improvements over OE design flaws/shortcomings (they too had to design to a price point then) - & I think it's the same in all other zones, since originality is only judged at national Parade CdEs - & it often doesn't come into play there either, except for an occasional challenge. With so many Porsche models out there now, it's impossible for volunteer judges to know all the original specs for every model/sub- of each car anyway.
Thanks in advance.
- MR
Thank you *VERY* much, Tom!
Will follow up on references you provided.
Also, it occurred to me after I posted that I might be looking at inside/outside door window seals (if inside seals even existed). I'll need to check on that.
Regards,
- MR
Will follow up on references you provided.
Also, it occurred to me after I posted that I might be looking at inside/outside door window seals (if inside seals even existed). I'll need to check on that.
Regards,
- MR
QUOTE(mountainroads @ May 25 2016, 02:27 PM)
Thank you *VERY* much, Tom!
Will follow up on references you provided.
Also, it occurred to me after I posted that I might be looking at inside/outside door window seals (if inside seals even existed). I'll need to check on that.
Regards,
- MR
That inner & outer seals makes more sense, cuz the outer definitely has a unique profile. You can see the outer seal on Steve G's Sahara Beige 73 in this pic below, & that's at the O&H "The few, the rare..." link below....
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=101921
.... well worth some drool time to go thru the pix on there!
A 73 from post #16 (you can probably PM or email hi from his post for a close up pix of the door seals & ask him to post at "The few, the rare..." topic for everyone's reference, as Steve is a good & helpful guy) -
A 71 /4 like yours at post 159 & 160 - can't see the inner scraper cuz it's under the bolster from this angle, but see the end caps wraps (1st one has got talc & in bright light, so not metal as it appears) -
Unfortunately I posted the above 2 & others for my buddy Jerry before he joined, & he's not very active on here, & I don't recall his screen name anyway. If really needed, I can probably email him & ask him to take pix & post them on here, but he's slow as molasses on stuff, which was why I ended up posting those pix for him!
PS - you can blow up the above pix from the main topic's posts as noted.
Cheers!
Tom
///////
QUOTE(mountainroads @ May 25 2016, 09:49 AM)
2) All 914 engine bay shots I've seen don't show a firewall pad. Was this something Porsche elected not to use on the 914 line? And if so, does anybody know why? Mostly curious, because it seems like an odd thing to omit unless there was a good reason. Both from a safety and noise standpoint. Perhaps the fan intake bulge made for a difficult shape?
Thanks in advance.
- MR
MR,
Your '70/4 did not, and should not have an engine compartment firewall pad. My 1970/4 never had one and I know for certain of an original 1972 (Pat Garvey's Bahia red 1.7) that never had one.
Paul
Interesting, Paul 
- Thanx for catching me on that error! 
MR - ignore my comments on that portion!
I knew a couple of folks out here in SoCal who had late MY 72 /4 with the pads, so thought it was on all of them.
I don't recall if my buddy Jerry's Bahia `71 had one, but most likely not from what you say.
I think there would be a MY or date where the holes in the firewall metal for the engine bay pad plastic hold-down screw/snap dealies & clips went in to hold the pad onto the firewall, if any records were available.
These types of MY & model specific tid bits need to have a nailed topic for folks to find some of this info.
I haven't heard anything from Pat lately, so I hope he's okay!?
Cheers!
Tom
///////
- Thanx for catching me on that error! MR - ignore my comments on that portion!
I knew a couple of folks out here in SoCal who had late MY 72 /4 with the pads, so thought it was on all of them.
I don't recall if my buddy Jerry's Bahia `71 had one, but most likely not from what you say.
I think there would be a MY or date where the holes in the firewall metal for the engine bay pad plastic hold-down screw/snap dealies & clips went in to hold the pad onto the firewall, if any records were available.
These types of MY & model specific tid bits need to have a nailed topic for folks to find some of this info.
I haven't heard anything from Pat lately, so I hope he's okay!?
Cheers!
Tom
///////
QUOTE(Tom_T @ May 25 2016, 04:28 PM)
I haven't heard anything from Pat lately, so I hope he's okay!?
Cheers!
Tom
///////
Tom, Pat is OK, but his 914 is slowly, unfortunately, and sadly being neglected. I wish he would post something about the ennui that has crept into his attitude regarding his 914. I've known Pat for over 40 years and I cannot quite understand why he has lost almost total interest in his car.
Paul
QUOTE
MR,
Your '70/4 did not, and should not have an engine compartment firewall pad. My 1970/4 never had one and I know for certain of an original 1972 (Pat Garvey's Bahia red 1.7) that never had one.
Paul
Thanks for the additional info, guys. For clarity, and just in case it makes a difference regarding the firewall pad, my 1970 is a -6. VIN 9140431482, so I think that puts it about mid-year.
- MR
QUOTE(mountainroads @ May 25 2016, 09:12 PM)
QUOTE
MR,
Your '70/4 did not, and should not have an engine compartment firewall pad. My 1970/4 never had one and I know for certain of an original 1972 (Pat Garvey's Bahia red 1.7) that never had one.
Paul
.........in case it makes a difference regarding the firewall pad, my 1970 is a -6. VIN 9140431482, so I think that puts it about mid-year.
- MR
It makes no difference, the /6 had no engine compartment pad either....
QUOTE(1970 Neun vierzehn @ May 27 2016, 06:14 PM)
QUOTE(mountainroads @ May 25 2016, 09:12 PM)
QUOTE
MR,
Your '70/4 did not, and should not have an engine compartment firewall pad. My 1970/4 never had one and I know for certain of an original 1972 (Pat Garvey's Bahia red 1.7) that never had one.
Paul
.........in case it makes a difference regarding the firewall pad, my 1970 is a -6. VIN 9140431482, so I think that puts it about mid-year.
- MR
It makes no difference, the /6 had no engine compartment pad either....
Vielen dank, Neun Vierzehn and others, for the assist!
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