Hi everyone,
This is my first post on your excellent forum. I've owned 914s in the past, but none at the moment. Have spent my time tangled up in British cars, so I don't know much about the air-cooled world... thought I am now pretty familiar with electrical fires!

I've been keeping my eye out for a built nearly-there vintage race car and found this:

https://losangeles.craigslist.org/sfv/cto/5578045362.html

Apparently it was campaigned in SoCal as a 6, but is now fitted with a 4. Owner says car runs and drives, but it's unclear what's been done inside the engine. Also unclear who raced it and in what class (apparently it was silver with blue wheels). This weekend I'll be able to go over it more fully with the owner, but I did drop by and check it out at the shop where it's stored. The car is in very nice shape: no rust or rot, good rubber, linkage, very quality glass work with no damage, etc. Fuel cell and harness would need replacing and drivetrain would need a rebuild I'm sure.

So, I've got a couple questions I'd love input on:

1) Do any of you know this car?

2) $5500 seems like a pretty good deal, am I wrong?

3) The car's had a 6 before and is ready to take another, but it looks like those engines are prohibitively expensive (for me). Are the 4cyl cars competitive? Assuming the engine that's in there isn't already tuned, how much do these engines need to be competitive? Is it worth keeping the 4 at all? (I've seen a few discussions on this topic but there seems to be some disagreement)

I should mention that I have not done any racing yet but would like to get into it. It does seem like this car would qualify for several of the series considering it's been raced already.

I'll be going to see the car more fully this weekend, but would appreciate your thoughts so I know what to ask and look for.

Spence

There's LOTS of excellent info on your key questions here. A good starting point is to home-in on your plans for the car -- type of events, sanctioning bodies, classifications/rules, whether dual street/track or pure track. Read the rules (GCR's). Twice.

To be right up front, in campaigning a 914 you very likely will (a) have some incredibly fun times, (b) make new friends, © break, (d) lose, (e) spend way more than you planned.

This is true of many/most undeveloped race cars especially old "classics". I can't speak personally but I doubt the 914 is significantly different in these aspects than the classic British sports-racers. So it's a matter of "pick yer poison"...

In looking at a particular car, again: (1) what purpose/rules built for and (2) do not underemphasize safety equipment and proper race prep. That is $$$$ to do well or a PITA to undo stuff done unwell.

Thanks for the warm welcome! I have been combing over the rulebooks and I'd aim to prep the car for the most stringent association. Seems like there's lots of activity here in SoCal, with PCA, VARA, SVRA, etc. Hopefully I'll know more about what needs to be replaced this weekend.

I wonder how legit the roll cage is? If its been raced in a series of any kind there should be some inspection holes so they can check the thickness of the tubing. I would hate to redo the cage.
With that said, I like the car. If it was close to me in Florida i'd be looking at it for sure.

Have you ever looked at driver education events. NASA and PCA both do this. It how I got my feet wet on the track. There's no classes, just guys and girls having fun on the track. Great way to catch the racing bug.

Racing any car of any kind will be an adventure. My personal car (914-4) has it engine torn down right now. My buddies Z06 corvette has been in the pits more then the track lately. It just happens an is part of the fun.

I know i'm all over the place here. Sorry.

with the others. There's oh so very much more to it than just buying a car that was designed to race. There may in fact be a lot done to that car that will need to be redone to be legal in specific series.

In theory, a 914 makes a wonderful race car. Very simple, light and relatively cheap. But these days, they really need to be built very, very specifically for an individual class in an individual series to be even remotely competitive. In SCCA, they have been mostly (but with some exceptions) outclassed by more modern cars. Water cooling, modern electronics, etc really make it hard to be competitive with a 914 without sinking a ton into the motor and drivetrain.

I'm not saying you shouldn't buy this one, but expect to really only be able to run a select number of events with it if you want to go wheel-to-wheel. IMHO, if you really want to get more track time, the best bang for the buck is almost certainly a Miata. They run in multiple classes depending on prep, in a number of series, yet still stay true to the small, light, simple philosophy. Parts are plentiful and ubiquitous. For the reasons Shane stated, this is a huge consideration for someone racing on a grassroots level.

In the meantime, you can get your feet wet without buying a racecar. Find some of your local autocross clubs and go do one. If you don't have a car, you can even rent one for the day, drive it there and drop it back off. Second, I would recommend joining the SCCA - go to a local club race and volunteer. They'll teach you everything from working a corner to grid, pits, tech, etc. This will also give you a better idea of what level you want to race at and what is required. Keep in mind that you almost certainly need a truck/tow rig, fuel jugs, tools, safety equipment, etc. The list is much longer than just the car unfortunately.

Then, as Shane said, you can do a track day or two. Again, most cars will be fine, as long as they're not convertibles. You will need to buy a helmet at that point. Then, if you're still interested, you could try Chumpcar or the 24 Hours of Le Mons series. Both require minimal driving experience and it's simple to rent a ride from another team.

Then, you will have come full circle and may consider getting your competition license in SCCA, NASA, VARA, SVRA, etc. Its *then* you will decide what car you want to buy

At least, if I had it all to do over again, this is the path I would have followed.

I agree with the above comments

you have to pick the club first, so that you know the specific rules for that club....

then you pick the car that meets those rules

a competitive car in PCA won't be vintage legal
and a competitive car in vintage, won't be competitive in PCA

so to have a good race car
you have to pick the specific rules first

I see lots questionable items with that car that could present a vintage rule barrier
no offense to the seller, but its not a very high standard of race car, needing a lot of time, work and money....

I doubt its actually ever been raced with a log book.... at least not in that configuration with that shown safety equipment... to some extent the seller never finished making it into a race car and its a misrepresentation to call if a finished race car

Yep that sounds logical. Exactly the kind of analysis I was looking for. Thanks, brant.

Theres nothing logical about owning a race car.

Ha!

Spence, I would be glad to walk you around my car if that might help. (Appears from your profile you're in the LA region.) Also I could share a nearly 3-page build sheet with all the mods. That doesn't include the engine which is another 2-3 pages.

I have mainly driven with POC and mainly time-trial/time-attack events for over 15 years now. It's a fantastic very track-focused club with strong instruction and safety. They will be at Streets of Willow coming up shortly but I'll probably skip that one. I highly recommend going even as a spectator and watching some of the groups running locally and talking to members and staff: Willow, Fontana, Buttonwillow are all reasonable drives as you probably know.

I just wanted to follow up and share the interesting info I uncovered. I tracked down the PO on the title and it turns out there's virtually no way the car for sale is the one on the title. I learned of a rotted carcass of a road car that was given away just this past September and then sold again at least two more times since then. I'm not saying this race car is stolen, but the windshield vin plate that was supposedly "removed but kept" matches a title that isn't the car being sold. All other VIN locations are gone. No telling what the history of this orange race car was or who it belonged (belongs) to.

I'm glad it wasn't more attractive than it was so I wasn't tempted to rush in! Goes to show that every car purchase should be carefully researched.

And thanks for the offer, CJ. I'll track you down when I'm ready to start looking more seriously.

might want to check this one out as its a little more "complete" and a little fuhraze

http://losangeles.craigslist.org/sgv/cto/5625228746.html

^^^ That thing does seem to have potential. The quality of the cage and of course the true overall rust situation dictate if it's a steal or a bottomless pit.

I wondered what all the louvers in the front bonnet were for but I see it's for transmission cooling!

Spence,

VARA is the only place to run a 914 in SOCAL. You will be outgunned by the newer water cooled cars in SCCA. Very few people run the pre 80's cars in SCCA any more. I was at a regional race last weekend at Buttonwillow and it was mostly Miatas spread across several classes.

Several people race the 1.8L 914's up in the SCCA San Francisco region, but the tracks are too far away for you in LA.

I have a 91 Miata 1.6L that I currently race in both VARA and SCCA in SOCAL at Willow Springs and Buttonwillow. I also have a Lola Formula Ford and a Reynard Formula Continental that I will race with VARA and SCCA next year.

Since I am transitioning back to formula car racing, I will let my 914 go for $9K. It is newly built and never raced. Has all the bells and whistles. All it needs is a fire system to be VARA legal. I could use the money to feed tires to the Lola and the Reynard.

Here's some pics: http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=273023

It currently has a stock 1.7L in it. You can race it in VARA in E Production with that motor. I strongly suggest you start there and work your way up. You have a lot of driving to learn and that motor is a good first year starter. You can add a racing cam and forged pistons to go faster when you get used to the car.

The 914's that have been racing VARA a lot longer have 2.0L engines and are in D Production. I already have the side shift tranny in it, so you can pick up a 2.0 L engine after you have learned the car with the 1.7L.

PM me with a phone number if you want to talk. If you are not interested in the car, I can at least steer you in the right direction.

Bill

except for SVRA, CSRG, HMSA, etc.....
where there are A LOT of 914's also running

does racing with a 2270 put you in an a class that you wont be competitive in?

That is a beautiful car. Almost identical to the 914 1.7 I had as a kid, right down to the yellow Porsche decal. Bill, did you find your 1.7 to be pretty competitive?

It's interesting that the 2L is in a different class. There's got to a pretty big leap between E and D Prod.

Spence,

Here's the reality of all this. There are three tracks to primarily race at in SOCAL. Fontana, Willow Springs and Buttonwillow. There is also Chuckwalla and Pahrump. SVRA races all over the country.....Going to an SVRA event in Florida is prohibitally expensive. When SVRA does race at any of the SOCAL tracks, it is in unison with VARA anyway.

CSRG is a Northern California vintage series that races Sonoma and Thunderhill...again a long way to drag a car. HMSA is also a NORCAL series.

When you buy any new car or are starting out in racing, you need to focus on your nearest tracks to avoid the logistical nightmares of dragging a car halfway across country. This is my second year of getting back into racing so I only run Willow Springs and Buttonwillow. You need to spend a lot of time at Willow learning turns 8 and 9. They change the configs at Buttonwillow a lot so you get a different track most every time you run it.

To start you will need to get a competition licence. Don't get one at SCCA since no one races 914's there. A VARA licence will carry over to SCCA. So get a VARA licence by going to their driver's school in January and start learning Willow Springs and Buttonwillow. In VARA you will have other 914's to run against and other drivers to get track and car tips from. I will most likely be one of the instructors at the driver's school. Get to know Gus Gomez who runs a 2.0L 914. He is a great guy and can give you all the tips to build up a $2.0L motor$. When you have spent some time on Willow Springs and Buttonwillow, then you can look to expand out to tracks farther away.

As I mentioned before, I have not raced the 914. I made it too pretty and worry about getting hit during a race. Plus I have the three other water cooled cars to work on. I am spending all my time learning the 1.6L Miata motor. And that is the main point to fully understand...when you buy a car, you will have to become an expert on that specific motor. So if you buy a 914, you will definitely have to focus on the nuances of air cooled. ...So the reason why i put that huge RX-7 aluminum oil cooler up front. I use the oil, instead of water to cool the engine. I learned this trick from a friend who owns the Elliot Forbes Robinson 914 up in San Jose.

If you buy my car, you will be the only 1.7 E Prod running in VARA. I did that on purpose. I wanted to learn the air cooled engines on the 1.7 before moving up to the more expensive 2.0's. Everyone else is running the 2.0L. No one is running 1.8L's in VARA. You will only find them in NORCAL SCCA F Prod cars. I suggest you make the move to 2.0's after you learn the car and the tracks.

When I say "learn the car"...I am talking suspension settings, proper tires, etc. If you focus all your money on the engine, you won't be able to focus on the chassis and will be slow. This is not drag racing. It is road racing where taking the turns at high speed is as important as going fast down the straights. Ask anyone who drives a Minicooper. I also have learned this in the Miata. I make up all my speed in the turns. I am faster in the turns than some of the cars with the bigger engine due to tires and the Bilstein coil overs.

I always have a three year plan when I buy a new car.....the first year is to start out slow learning the car and the tracks. year two is to then start making incremental horsepower improvements..this is the most important year. Year three is the year of the big expensive engines and trying to win races.

They run E and D prod in group 1 anyway so you will be able to drive with them. When you say "compete", most likely you will be "competing" with the smaller bore British cars in H and F production they also run in group 1.

If you want to run front of the pack, you will have to go 914-6 in the GT class. They do not run in Group 1. There are several that run VARA. They are fast as hell and are 911 killers. Expect to spend $30,000...just to start.

There is a VARA race at Buttonwillow AUG 27-28. I strongly encourage you to come out and talk to all the 914 owners. They will all be there since this is VARA Octoberfest/Rennsport and I am debating bringing the 914 instead of the Miata to run.

That hood would not be legal for any vintage venue. They may be thinking about drafting air out for a front mounted oil cooler. The only thing going for this car is that it has a roll cage and has the interior stripped out...The roll cage must be 1.5in dia DOM steel with greater than .095 wall.....you will spend much more time working on this car than driving it. The only thing good is that it will cost $1600 to $2000 to have a cage welded in. So for $3000, it is a good start. But you also will need a fuel cel, and a fire system and a seat..etc.

^^^ Much wisdom and good advice ^^^

I would also add to NOT underestimate/underbudget things like transmission(s) and consumables i.e., tires, fuel, brakes. I have built my car to the point that it costs a fortune to run and that is now limiting how often I get to play. I made my own bed so to speak and don't regret it but not everyone would/should/could go that far down the slope.

I really do believe in learning the ropes and seeing if you truly have the passion, with a smaller slower cheaper car like a stock-ish 914-4 or Miata or 944 or Boxster... I ran 90HP CI-class -4 for many years then a 130-140HP small -6, both narrowbody with pump gas and 205 width DOT-R tires. That is a LOT of fun and far easier to get into and out of than the more modified classes.

I 100% agree. I run a 1.6L Miata and have driven a 1.8L Miata on an endurance team up in NORCAL. There is a reason why half the field in Cal Club SCCA are Miatas...they are cheap and highly reliable I beat the crap out of mine and it just keeps going......if you want to spend more time on the track driving than working on a car...than answer is: "Get a MIATA!" And you don't have to run in $$Spec Maita$$ which can get very expensive...Again the SCCA took a SPEC class and got stupid..... Go get a used Miata for $1500, do nothing to the engine, put in a roll cage and fire system(you don't need a fuel cel since the gas tank is forward of the rear axles..this saves $750) and you can run in ITA, Fprod, etc. I run mine in the new Club Racer class in VARA. I am doing the first complete engine build after 1 1/2 years of running it.......I spent several years working on and owning British cars...they cars are much too fragile. So are 914's.

campbellcj,

So I can run my stock 1.7L at 6500 RPM and not worry about throwing a rod or cracking a piston? Are they fairly robust in the stock config? I would like to race the car at VARA Rennsport at Buttonwillow this Aug.

Also, I am used to the short shift throw of a Formula Fod and the Miata. The 914 shift is like driving a VW bus. So the reason why I put in the side shift. I hated that tail shift. I may get the Short Shift kit from Auto Atlanta too.

Bill;

There is no need to spin a stock 1.7 up to 6500 RPMs. They fall flat on their face after 5000. Even an engine with a nice cam in it really won't ever need to spin that fast, until you get into some serious headwork, valvetrain mods, etc.

I ran a bone stock 1.8 at Sebring with some of the guys here on the board in the middle of the Summer, didn't even have an external oil cooler and the motor did just fine. In fact the only problems we had were stupidity on my part with a rocker pivot shaft nut that came off and a clutch that was way too old to have been on the car. Put the nut back on the pivot shaft stud and changed the clutch and we drove the piss out of it for 10 hours. I haven't even bothered to change the oil since then - it never got above 210.

Thanks for the input. That is good to know. I feel better about taking it out. I may do a track day then take it to Rennsport at Buttonwillow.

210 on the oil, that is excellent. I hear these 2.0L guys at talking about going to 300F at Willow Springs. I called the tech guys at one of the oil companies who told me not to go above 220.....that the sweet spot is 210. After that you get serious viscosity breakdown. So the reason why I put the large RX-7 oil cooler in the nose.

I run my Miata water temp at 190. I really don't like going above that. 210 and it boils...and steam is a really bad heat conductor. And I runt he piss out of my motor too. It is pretty much stock.

I hope you cut open that rx7 cooler and gutted the thermostat

No I did not ....what's the downside if I don't?

Here's another one local to you. You would have to do a complete tear down considering the condition.. the parts alone are worth more than they are asking. look like it needs a fire system and a new fuel cel. http://losangeles.craigslist.org/sfv/cto/5646512874.html

It's a restriction to cooling
Also a restriction to oil volume (a bottleneck)
Possibly motor/oiling problems....
(Restrictions for any potential dry sump motor combined with a long oil pathway... a receipt for motor failure)

Not a fan of rx7 coolers
They can be cut open and TIG welded. Hopefully without contaminating the system
But used coolers are always risky and should be avoided.

I'm partial to fluidyne coolers
Race motors are too expensive to cut corners in the oil system

I agree with Brant here. I'd be worried about the integrity of a used part that is important to the race car. Cooling the oil is only second to safety in my opinion when it comes to the track. If you do it right you can run 210-215 degrees for 14 hours in Florida with crazy drivers!
Brant's installation is super slick. Mine is more traditional, but I think we both have Mocal coolers. I bought mine through BAT in the Tampa area. Theres tons of sizes there.

Do it once and do it right.

Thanks guys for the help ont he oil cooler.....I inspected it pretty well and it looks clean. I also took apart the thermostat. I agree..it should be plugged.

I agree on the redline/longevity of the -4's and definitely with the stock-ish 2.0 and 2.4 -4's I ran long ago, there was no point going over 5600 or somewhere thereabouts. I moved to a -6 in 2004 as I did not see the Type4 powerplant providing the power, longevity and driver experience I wanted longer-term. (My current -6 FWIW makes peak power around 7500 and safely revs to 8000).

Oil cooling is extra critical around here (desert climate). My current car actually has an oversized Mazda race cooler bought new from their motorsports division, with AN-12 lines a Troutman thermostat and a huge custom duct/shroud setup. I actually have to block off the front bumper intake to allow the car get warm enough in the cooler months...

This is my oil cooler install. I used AN-10 lines.

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=273591