I think at least it is getting close. is this OK od should I mess with something
This was just after the start 1st gear flat on the floor turn right and didn't shift to 2nd till I was almost through the corner.

with a new question. Does it look like the car is twisting as it loads the suspension? Looking at the targa bar and windshield frame. Guess that is what a roll bar or ENGMAN kit will fix?

Not going to do this fix to this body but May consider it for the stripper.

QUOTE (Joe Ricard @ Apr 13 2005, 09:01 AM)

with a new question. Does it look like the car is twisting as it loads the suspension? Looking at the targa bar and windshield frame. Guess that is what a roll bar or ENGMAN kit will fix? Not going to do this fix to this body but May consider it for the stripper.

a roll bar won't help, but a proper cage would help greatly...the Engman kit is a decent alternative to cage.....a roll bar with a petty bar would help, but if street car or you have passangers, I'd make sure the petty bar is removable.

QUOTE (Mueller @ Apr 13 2005, 08:05 AM)

QUOTE (Joe Ricard @ Apr 13 2005, 09:01 AM) with a new question.   Does it look like the car is twisting as it loads the suspension?  Looking at the targa bar and windshield frame.   Guess that is what a roll bar or  ENGMAN kit will fix? Not going to do this fix to this body but May consider it for the stripper. a roll bar won't help, but a proper cage would help greatly...the Engman kit is a decent alternative to cage.....a roll bar with a petty bar would help, but if street car or you have passangers, I'd make sure the petty bar is removable.

OK I'll play What is a petty bar?
and the difference between "roll bar" and "cage"

QUOTE (Joe Ricard @ Apr 12 2005, 03:56 AM)

till I was almost through the corner.

got swaybars ? what spring rate? torsion bars?

Front is stock torsion bars, Welt 22 mm sway set 1 inch from end. Welt camber plates, Poly bushings in A-arms.
Rear is 150lb coil over stock sway bar on welt poly bushings. trailing arms have welt poly bushings also.
Kumho Ecsta V700 @ 37 PSI on Fuchs 1/4" wheel spacers all controlled by Koni red adjustables set 1/4 turn from soft as this surface is reallly bumpy.

roll bar is a simple steel tube bent into a U & welded to the base of the B pillar. It'll give occupants protection in a roll over.

cage is a whole heap of tubing that'll also protect occupants. But can be made to tie in suspension points & generally make the car torsionally stiffer.

A petty bar is a diagonal brace going from the main hoop to the passanger footwell.

Cool thanks I will do some searching here. I remember seeing a nice "one off" cage design about a year ago.

it's pretty damn hard to see anything from that picture. can you get some close ups?

QUOTE (nebreitling @ Apr 13 2005, 08:57 AM)

it's pretty damn hard to see anything from that picture.  can you get some close ups?

Isn't torsional flex more of a big deal with high speeds, sticky tires and heavy springs?

Is torsional flex really a big deal for an AX car? Especially one that is comparatively softly sprung?

I say comparatively, because I have 21mm Torsion bars, Tarett front & rear swaybar (22 & 16) and 200 lb rear springs. I only notice flex in the car when I drive diagonally across a culvert in a parking lot or some such. I never notice it during hard driving, or AXing (granted, my attention is elsewhere during AX).

Last week I got the car hung up on because I had driven diagonally onto a driveway / sidewalk, which caused the rear passenger wheel to lose contact with the ground. The car wasn't twisted so bad that the doors wouldn't open.

http://www.delta-scca.org/05%20Delta%20Res...apr10_pics2.htm
Near the bottom of the page.

http://www.delta-scca.org/05%20Delta%20Res...cs/DSC00161.JPG

much better... i think the angle exagerates the appearance of 'flex'. yeah, your rear right wheel is almost lifting -- but look at your front right! it's off the damn ground!

given that, i actually think you're staying pretty straight. although from what i've heard, the engman kit really helps allround....

n

here's another thing you can do (and it's for free!!!) ...

put the damm top on when you run!
Andy

QUOTE (Joe Ricard @ Apr 13 2005, 08:30 AM)

Rear is 150lb coil over

the 150 springs might be too soft ...

i have 180 and 911 torsion bars in the front and that combo seems to work very well for me ...

Andy

QUOTE (SirAndy @ Apr 13 2005, 09:20 AM)

here's another thing you can do (and it's for free!!!) ... put the damm top on when you run! Andy

Huh, wonder what effect a "flexiglass" top would have on making the car more ridgid versus the extra weight located that high up?

Stiffer springs is do-able but would probably kill me driving to the events 125 miles over Loos-anna I-10 jumps not bumps.

QUOTE (Joe Ricard @ Apr 13 2005, 09:32 AM)

Huh, wonder what effect a "flexiglass" top would have on making the car more ridgid versus the extra weight located that high up? Stiffer springs is do-able but would probably kill me driving to the events 125 miles over Loos-anna I-10 jumps not bumps.

you'd be surprised. the top adds a lot more ridgidy (sp?) to the car. the body flex/twist is in the center of the car, right about where the front of your seat is. the top will help quite a lot keeping the body from twisting!

secondly, get muellers roller bearings and you'll feel like you're riding on cotton balls, even with 200+ springs!
those crappy plastic/poly bushings are binding way too much anyways ...

Andy

look at this pic, that was with the front swaybar *disconnected* (no rear bar) ...

btw. i drive my car a lot on the road, the 180 springs have a nice feel to them, i don't think they're uncomfortable at all ...

Andy

Not to mention keeping the top on will shade me from the blazing summer sun.
Looks like this was my son driving he definately ain't scared.
Going to bring my video camera next time so I can get a better idea of what is going on. Plus it will show me where I was braking and listen to where I really was wide open and where I shifted.
Just read through a driving technique memo and it makes me confident I wasn't doing anything right. As evidenced by the top driver in our region riding along with me on a run.
His comments were very heplful
Don't grab the wheel so hard (well I'm always scared)
You can actually go straight through that obstacle Wide open. (damn that was cool)
turn quicker in the slalom don't wait till the car is past look further ahead (yea gotta work on that one)
DO NOT brake in the slalom (felt I had to slow down) cause I turn to slow ( I knew that but did it anyway) IDONNO
No fast way around the pivot cone good braking but get off brake earlier to get car to rotate better and get on gas earlier.

Damn thats alot to remember.

The rule of thumb as I was taught is if one corner is high the opposing corner is sprung to light. The dynamic flex can be slowed by the antisway bar and it sounds like yours is pretty soft. If it were me, I would stiffen up the front bar. Since you have torsion bars in front and it is a pain to put in heavier ones, I would say lower the rear of the car which will sshift some weight to the rear and have the effect of stiffening the front. On our 1974 914 it sits about as low as possible and there is just a very slight forward rake to help with turn-in. Good luck

Shit can the rear swaybar or install an LSD.

QUOTE (J P Stein @ Apr 13 2005, 05:01 PM)

Shit can the rear swaybar or install an LSD.

So this is contrary to what I feel is needed. ditching the rear bar will induce more understeer. Right? so how can that be good?
Ya already put in credit card hack this month. a LSD would be out of the question. Next....... buy my Harley and then I can spent more.

So I have gotten several different opinons on set up. but most say make the front stiffer either bar or spring rate.

QUOTE (Joe Ricard @ Apr 13 2005, 05:44 PM)

QUOTE (J P Stein @ Apr 13 2005, 05:01 PM) Shit can the rear swaybar or install an LSD. So this is contrary to what I feel is needed. ditching the rear bar will induce more understeer. Right? so how can that be good? Ya already put in credit card hack this month. a LSD would be out of the question. Next....... buy my Harley and then I can spent more. So I have gotten several different opinons on set up. but most say make the front stiffer either bar or spring rate.

If I thought ditching the rear bar would cause you understeer, I wouldn't have wrote it.
Just disconnect it & see what happens.

Ayup, lotta experts here.
Increased roll or spring stiffness up front is the best way to increase understeer....even more with both

Humm, you have a 22 mm sway bar. I've been fighting a push ever since I put in a stouter AR bar. I'm up to 225 lb rear springs in back and they aren't enuff tp cure it.
I think I don't have a clue as to what to tel ya