I made a similar thread over on Pelican and was shocked to see the responses that the 914 was a bad choice...

Heres the story.

I've had this E30 ('84 BMW) that I built a few years ago and am closing in on 4 years of ownership. Its a total blast, but being in California, and having a motor swap, Im having a headache making it street legal and then it will be hard to modify it to STAY street legal.

Ive really had the 914 itch and this last year the BMW no longer has to fulfill duties of daily driving. That means that the E30 is strictly a "fun" car and doesnt really need to be "comfortable." Its not plush anyways but it still has a back seat, carpet, stereo, etc. A "fun" car doesnt need these things because its simply to take out, drive like a maniac and tuck back in the garage. Im not going to be hauling people around, sitting in bumper to bumper traffic, going on long drives, etc. This works to the benefit of the 914 because A) its an older design so naturally will be less "comfortable," B) It doesnt need to be smog compliant which gives me more room to play around and finally, C) its a car that is more oriented to being a "fun" car than a "comfy" car.

The plan with this fun car is to slowly get more involved with autocross, HPDE and eventually take part in either BMW CCA or PCA or POC track events. I've really wanted to take a 914 and give the 911 a run for their money. I know the BMW is powerful enough to compete with them, but then I dont want this car to be a trailer queen, it needs to stay streetable and thats where the E30 is going to be a tough one as I love the package Ive built, I dont want to strip this car out, I feel like it just becomes another raced out E30.

I was shocked to find that nobody thought the 914 was a good choice, whereas Ive always felt it was the BEST choice, given budget and the above mentioned options.

So, I know you guys are biased, but I thought I would ask directly from the source and get some input. For the record, the miata is simply there because everyone thinks its so great. I will never get one. I would rather ride my Schwinn.... or just keep my E30 instead.

Hopefully this makes sense, but I may need to clarify my intentions more...

thoughts? opinions?

You'll spend more time fixing it than driving it... But thats what I have my 914 for... I love fabricating and making things better... thus my 914 is my toy.

I have my Fiesta ST for a get in and drive the piss out of car... Its my mountain road monster... It also happens to be my daily driver/commuter..


Really its all about what you want out of it. If you dont want to have to do work on it then the 914 isnt the weekend car for you. If you enjoy working on things then its a great car..

For the money there are much better cars though if thats a concern..

I was really going to ask the same question. I'd hope more people can chime in regarding this.

I used to own a miata and sold it a year or so ago. The miata was great but I need something new.

I need a car that needs me more than I need the car.....

If that makes sense to you, get the 914.

My /6 (2.7, about 2000 pounds) eats some E30's at DE's even with a 71 year old driver. Something very satisfying about doing that with a 40 year old car...

Hands down get/build a 914. I stirred up a hornets nest some time ago mainly regarding this same issue. The lack of 914 presence at the track is discouraging - being such a great car. The vast majority of owners here are "normal" non-performance drivers - more show, shine, originality stuff. Fine for them but doesn't get my blood flowing.

PM me if you are interested in discussing the finer points of preparing a 914 for track duty. I spend an entire year building my car and have now run the first 5 weekend events (DE's) without a breakdown of any kind. I've owned allot of different cars, some very quick and expensive race cars - nothing quite offers me the same joy as the old 914. I hope you chose to do it - BMW's are great cars - the e30's not so much - nothing special. I grew up in the hobby with Bimmers and know them very, very well.

The amount of thoughtful planning, knowing what to concentrate on and executing to the best of your ability and budget will all allow you to have a rewarding experience. IF you do it RIGHT, you will never regret campaigning a 914!

All the best!

PS: For inspiration...here are two pics of my 914 track car - I eat GT3 cup cars for fun - really. This is my street car too.

Tony

At our last event...we were the fastest car out of 140 or so entries (including 6 cup cars); lap times not acceleration (well acceleration too)!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nBg507dlcs


Click to view attachment

Click to view attachment

My 914

Click to view attachment

or my ChumpCar

Click to view attachment

Both GREAT at what they do!

The 914 with a good 6 is a killer car. Unfortunately the days of an inexpensive conversion are over.

The Subie option is good one if you can build it, DIY.

The T-4 is........an unwilling participant.

I voted for the Miata.

I respect every opinion but it isn't about "logical financial investment" when it comes a 914, IMHO. Its like John said earlier, "I wanted a car that needed me more than I needed it" (or close to that)...

Just sayin': driven a bunch of Miata's on track = boring. That's just my takeaway though...I like speed (everywhere) and those other two options need not even apply.

PS: I will kindly put this out there too...if you need a poll of strangers to steer you in a direction (many of whom probably have never been on a track); stick with your Bimmer. A 914 track car should be only attempted by those who need no help making that decision. Capisce? Cheers so you are not insulted...

Tony

Always read the rule book first
I don't care if you don't intend to actually race
you should still build to a set of rules, if nothing more than for resale value.

the 914 is a vintage car
the others are not
do you want to run a vintage car or a track car?

a competitive wheel to wheel 914 (4 or 6 honestly) will cost double what the other 2 options above will cost (ok, maybe the 914/6 will be triple)


a big bore -4 race car is not going to have a class to run in, and will not be competitive in any class they bump you up to in order to find you a place to run.

see rule number one: RTRB

Hey Simon,

you might want to watch this youtube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVgvwuTgfB0

Very sage advice above. Also bear in mind that you will see few or no 914s anymore in POC or PCA club racing. You may see some in autocross or DE but probably fading away quickly as well. So if you want to drive with like-minded folks having similar cars, that's another aspect to consider carefully. When I take my 914 out with POC these days, I'm typically the only 914 and one of the few aircooled cars out there... and a key reason I'm planning to join VARA in January.

Also, I remember we exchanged notes on costs earlier but to reiterate -- definitely do not assume a car will be cheaper to build or run because it's older and simpler -- if anything, these old cars have become far MORE expensive to build and to run vs. a Boxster/BSR or SpecMiata or Spec944 or whatnot. The more you modify, the deeper you dig that hole.

Lots of responses and as I expected, it was mostly biased towards the 914, which is fine. I was hoping to gain personal experience from 914 owners, so thank you all for sharing your experiences.

I cant reply to everyone individually, but the overall impression Im getting is that in order to be remotely competitive I need a 6 (or a monster V8 like Tony) and theres simply no way to build something like that for less than double what I have into my own car. And the reality of that is that I think the overall package would still be less than what I currently own.

Those who seem to have dismissed the E30s, thats fine, but mine isnt a regular E30 either that you may have experienced. Im glad I got encouraging words here, but it also cements that the 914 I picture competing with will be in the back of the pack.

I still plan to get my hands on a 914, but it will have to wait until the right time, and it doesnt seem to be now, and it doesnt look like the 914 will replace the E30, but supplement it.

I personally believe a 4 cylinder 914 is more competitive (against the cars it is classed with in racing) than a 6 cylinder 914 is.

and I race a 6
but no way my 2.0 can out power a 240Z or lotus elan....

Good choice.

T

A great all around car, i.e., one that works on the road or at the track, is a (used) Boxster S. They are cheap, handle and are relatively fast, even in stock condition. And if you want something really fast, throw in an LS engine.

Or a proven Spec Boxster (BSR) -- people "graduate" or "retire" all the time and sell their cars for far less than a new build.

The 914 is a cult car. Takes way more time, money and energy than it's worth compared to other cars, unless you love 914's. Once your hooked, your hooked but if you are lukewarm, it's not the car for you.

Simon,
Chris just touched on something here - 99/100 times you will never be able to build something as cheap as you can buy a pre-built racecar. You may still need to "redo" some things or make modifications, but even then it'll be cheaper to buy something that's already built.
Personally what I would suggest is that you get some seat time first. You can rent cars for track days from various teams/shops. Go do a track day in an E30 if you can, or better yet, an autocross. Start small. No matter WHAT car you decide on, there is no such thing as a trouble-free or cheap track car. They take an insane amount of work just to keep on the track, let alone be competitive.
Or, you can jump all in like we did and do a race in Chumpcar or LeMons (I would highly recommend the former over LeMons). In either of these series, there are plenty of teams which will rent you a ride in their car, which is much cheaper than going out and buying one, then finding out it's not what you like. E30s are all over the place, seem to be pretty reliable and are "fairly" cheap. Several of us run 914s in Chumpcar and while fun, they need serious work to keep up with cars even 10 years newer. I drove an E30 and while I beat the living snot out of it and it was easy to drive, it was no where near as fun or gave as much feedback as the 914. However, with an E30, you'll always have a class/series to race in; Chumpcar, SCCA, NASA Spec E30, etc.

Here's a video of a Chumpcar 914 out there by you with a big honkin V8 swap.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAqNehNGtE8


There's PLENTY of E30 videos out there if you search.

If you are not worried about class, build your 914/6 how you want to and go to DE, time trials, autocross and have a FANTASTIC time. Buying a built car could be a better choice. I know a couple of spec Boxster guys that transitioned from 914 or 911 feel the car has no soul, but like the competitive aspect.

I went out & bought a Miata that has a few mods......a FM turbo set up installed is in the mix.

It goes like stink.

For what it's worth, I know of a couple 914 racecars for sale (as far as I know they are, anyway) that are great deals in my opinion. One is a full on club racer with a 3L making a lot of hp for mid $20's. The other is a bit more tame with a 2.2L race engine for mid teens. The second one might even be a decent vintage racing candidate, now that I think about it. 914 racecars can be a bargain ...

I'm sure everybody has their own priorities when it comes to a fun
street/autocross/track type car, so this is just my opinion and my priority.

First priority: fun = not breaking down

To do that I try not to make any mod that's too extreme, and to do
maintenance and checks every winter. Motor is only 2.3L ~150HP, suspension
is not too wild and I had Chris@Tangerine add the ear re-enforcement bars.

When you buy a used race car you've just bought a pile of uncertainty. We
had a guy who bought 2 914 race cars in the last 2 years, came to several of
our autocrosses, broke every time. At least now that I've owned my car for >15
years I know as much as possible about condition.

Then, you have fun tuning the suspension a bit, get things the way you want, and
then try to improve your driving all the time.

Regarding breaking shit (or shit breaking). Yes.

I found my car to be very reliable. Once I'd replaced virtually every single part in the whole thing.

Have had some fun ones. Broke a stock 901/914 shifter; the whole lever came off in my hand at some thankfully lower speed. Had a carb throttle return spring pop off at speed. Pedalbox jam up due to bent/broken bits. Droplinks, monoballs and spoilers cracked during "offs".

Allot of drivers don't push these old cars like you do Chris...stuff will happen when you do - and it doesn't matter what you're driving. I can speak better about durability about a year from now - hopefully.

Tony

Tony you car is so bad ass... Your car is the blue print for my cars future... now I just need kick ass fab skills like yourself and I'm good.

Keeping prepping and racing the devil you know (E30). It will be cheaper and as mentioned, perhaps more competitive.

That said, 914's are a blast. They are old. Some parts are hard to find. If built properly, it won't really ever break though (4 or 6 cyl).

Just get out there and have fun. The car is secondary as you are still progressing as a driver. Then, once you are a really good driver, buy an "early" 911.

911's divided the world.. those who can drive, and those who can't

That 919 car is an animal. I don't think he has enough tire for the HP. I wonder if they finished the race.

Right, the only way to buy a race car, but Spec Boxsters seem to be going for big money now. Supply and demand.

It appears the car has plenty of tire...it appears to be a set-up issue. I remember that car being all over the place. That is certainly not indicative of how a well balanced swap behaves. The one caveat may be the tire compound that is allowed - could help explain at least some of the issues.

Tony

I wish the camera view/angle was better.
Not sure about that line in cork-screw...

I's my observation that all too many folks are unaware that race tires heat cycle out. About 40 AX passes and they're done. We ate up a lot of guys over the years, as a result.

I just read your post to the newbie asking about 914's as a good weekend & fun car to buy and came across your comments as there are no longer any 914's running in POC. I ran a "stock" 73 914 2.0 in POC from 1985 to Nov 1990. At our Riverside Time Trial CS had 21 drivers registered, more than any other class. I'm sure the mention of Riverside also puts me in the history books. I won the CS class the next year.
25 years later, kids are grown & thru college, I'm dragging out my old reliable 914, but going back to improve everything, motor, suspension, weight, brakes & belts. Did
not realize that we had to replace belts every few years now!
To move on to our present day time trialing, I went to spectate at a local PCA day at the new M-1 Concours track. When asked what Porsche I plan to run I replied, a 73 914. The PCA guys remarked that they had not seen a 914 on track for years. With all the improvements & changes I am making on the car I'm sure it will at least be somewhat competitive. I have not complied with any vintage rule books as that was not my original intent. I wish that all the racers here at 914 World would come join us at the PCA track days. I intend to go back to time trialing for the thrill of it!

I was further discouraged last weekend to find zero 914s at the VARA races. The overall turnout was low and there were only 2-3 911s, no 356s I recall.

...and this is a surprise? I caused quite a commotion a couple years ago with an open letter to this group - it was largely true and the general populous took offense. At race tracks - 914's are rare and becoming rarer. It takes allot of extra work to be on anything even close to being equal footing when campaigning a teener. My opinion then and now still is THAT extra work is worth it. It is hard to imagine how that message is lost on a site for...914's! I can only come to the conclusion that the affinity for 914 race cars only goes so far - frugality and laziness are terrible bed-partners.

PS: My football team just played in an entire half without gaining a single first down - not in the best of moods.

Tony

I have to say I'm a bit surprised that 914s are rare in vintage racing (that's what VARA is, right?) I'd think they'd be a good candidate for that.

In POC and PCA Racing, agreed that there are not so many 914s anymore. Or aircooled cars, for that matter. I finally started racing my car last year, and I was the only 914 at the race. I plan to keep at it, though. I'm hoping to turbo the car when I rebuild the engine. That should give it some oomph!

I don't find 914's rare at all in vintage racing....

locally there are about 6 different ones that participate and an average of 4 per a weekend...

when I go to out of state SVRA,HMSA,CSRG races there are always 2-3

and in CVAR I gather they are up to about 6 per a weekend at their vintage races...


my opinion.... all of the 914's are leaving the clubs they started with such as PCA
they are all going to vintage racing... they are more competitive with other older machinery is all...

You know Im going to make a comment relating to that here.. Now my car is 100% a street car but I was extremely surprised to see that I could not hang with barely any of the cars at the race track last weekend on a tight course. Granted I had street tires on but it was a bit disappointing seeing that even though I was showing just over 1G on the turns and I have at least 250hp I just wasnt as predictable and smooth as all the boxsters, 350z's, bmw's, Mr2 turbo's, S2k's on the track in the same skill class.

Jump in my Fiesta ST and bam Im hanging with the rest of them on the stock street tires...

Dont get me wrong, my 914 needs alot of things (Primarily a LSD, more aggressive pads, and stickier tires) but I just was not expecting that. Im going to compare my times but me going 100% in the fiesta(My comfortable limit) was about the same as me going 90-95%(my comfortable limit) in the 914..

Andrew I think your comments further validate that modern tech such as aerodynamic aids, suspension geometry, ABS brakes and maybe most significantly the lightening-quick transmissions have made it much harder for 914s or early 911s to compete in fun or in actual winning ability. Hence the comments that old cars belong with other old cars.

In my car which is extensively modified (but not as much pure balls-out race car as some others here) it's always a give-and-take with the newer cars on track. Most of the GT3/4/5 cars won't run away from me on straights or in tight technical turns where it's mainly mechanical grip at work. Of course I'm rowing the gears manually and losing time every shift where some of them have PDK or whatnot. Under braking and in fast sweepers though, it can be "game over" as aero+abs+wider contact patch trumps my old school tech.

My last observation of VARA was probably a bit seasonal too. I have certainly seen greater Porsche presence at other VARA events. The overall attendance seemed poor at this last one, not only the p-car presence.

It is quite enlightening that a stock modern car can kill a 914 in AX. Have to keep it in perspective. A friend of mine has a VW Passat with minor engine/turbo upgrades that can destroy most 914s in AX. Sigh. I like sleepers. My 914 isn't as stealthy as his VW which looks like a boring street car. A little envy going on.

I think if I had ABS on my car I would have been able to have been much more confident in my braking zones and stayed on the gas a bit more and held more speed going into corners as well. Im sure balance has a lot to do with that, but when I drove my Fiesta I toasted the brakes after about 8 laps chasing 911's, Boxsters, S2k's, and 370z's.

I KNOW I am going to setup my ABS system for the 914. I really, really wish I had ABS in the 914. I bet I would have picked up at least 2 seconds with ABS and probably another 2 seconds if I had a LSD. Every single corner I was fighting with the inside rear wheel breaking loose on just a little bit of throttle.

Andyrew - Part of what you describe is simply set-up issues; others are components; and lastly, driver skill. Packing a 914 with driver aides defeats the purpose to me. Learn to use powerless brakes; steering, use the damn clutch, etc., etc. I have a couple friends with new Cayman S' with PDK = boring! I guess it depends on what each persons objective is, if you want to develop as a driver - have a car that actually requires that of you. I have a long, long way to go but my car is now capable of running with anything we usually see short of a pro-driver at the wheel. 991 cup cars included...

Either way - its still a boat load of fun - tracking in a non-prepared 914 (to me) - not so much.

Tony

There's always going to be someone there who's faster than we are in our 40 year old Teeners. But, how are you doing against your past personal best? That's one key thing I'm looking at. The other big ego boost is having person after person stop by in the paddock snapping pictures, asking what's in there, shaking their heads and saying "This is the car of the day for me". I don't think that would happen at all if I were in a GT3....just sayin'.

It depends..........
A properly built 914 works fine and there are no reasons not to do it that way.
When ya get down to doing it, it is a very simple build.

Though I didn't set out this way, over a period of time I rebuilt/modified/removed everything on the car end to end.

Having a car that runs/drives is a good plan. I suffered 2 DNFs in 12 years ( both electrical issues). You'd think I would be a better driver....Oh well.

By the time I was done, IIRC , I had 2 load bearing wires in the car....that'll fixem'..

here are a few 914's racing in action...
8 of them in this race group

there are lots of them in vintage racing still
and they are competitive, just built more authentic
(things like motor displacement, and fender/wheel sizes)

914's on the track in vintage racing!

I would disagree that 914s are not competitive.

My last race in RMVR, I actually won my class and the race with 9 other cars. (disclaimer - ONE car could have beaten me easily, but he hung back to watch the fireworks and he was forced to run on his rain tires).

My car was faster (in the straights even) than a RX7 and a Miata.

I have a 2013 Subaru BRZ, and my 914 can get better lap times than I can in it (albeit it has only had street tires while my 914 has hoosiers).

I have an extra 71 if you want it. I will take a lot of love but the price is rite

Hey guys, thought I would give you a little update. I finally popped my track cherry a few weeks ago and Im preparing for a much more busy 2017. Roll bar welded in, 6point harness, Cobra fixed racing seat, plus a new SA2015 helmet & new gloves.

First a sexy shot some dude got of my car on Mulholland

_D8C7651-(ZF-6041-14057-1-001) by Simon Tuman, on Flickr

Heres a few of the pics from my day running with the SoCal Alfa group (AROSC)

Had to capture some pics in front of some iconic stuff



I love this plate, its a shame that I cant use this unless Im "off-road"


Streets of willow is a blast with a 24v E30

Here's a few more pics my friends wife took, he has some pics too and a few videos that I need to get my hands on



I was loving this turn, power sliding into 3rd going up the hill





Heres a few more pics that my buddy took, you can see the ass sliding out







2800fun indeed.

Ive been trying to convince my brother and my friend that we should go in on a 914 to race in Chump Car, but for now I will just keep getting more seat time in my E30

Very cool! Congrats and see ya out at Willow Springs some day.

I will probably lose my sh!t if/ when I see a 914 at ANY track. I was so excited when I saw ONE at the Monterey Historics.

I will be attending the AROSC event at Willow Springs (Big Willow this time) on Feb 18. Its open to all makes, Id love to see some of you guys out there

I will be at Buttonwillow next weekend (1/14-15) for their racers clinic/license school and then probably at Big Willow with POC next month 2/11 and/or 2/12, then Big Willow again with VARA 3/25-26.