To be clear I am asking to build my knowledge base not to question your recommendation. But what makes the Spartan better? I think all of them are based on the Bosch LSU 4.9 O2 sensor. So I am not sure what the advantage of one over the other is.

No worries! I've been lucky enough to have experience with a bunch of different engine management systems and components and just like to share.

You're correct; they all do use the same Bosch sensor (some do use the older LSU4.2, but that's being phased out). The difference is in the signal processing and element heater control electronics. My personal experience has been that Innovate units are very sensitive to both wiring issues (especially on the ground side) and temperature on both the sensor and controller. They also tend to drift if you do not free-air calibrate them on a regular basis which is a pain. I've seen errors of ~0.5 AFR (gasoline engine) after the sensors have been in service for a bit without a recalibration.

Most of the O2 sensors I've used have been in pretty demanding [hot] racecar applications and the Innovates have experienced far more faults. So many in fact that we stopped using them altogether. Innovate and most other controller companies (including Bosch) use the same chip to control their sensors; 14point7 designed their own micro-controller. They claim better sensor temperature stability and faster thermal response.

Innovate
-- Requires free air calibration
-- Extremely sensitive to environment temperature (operating environment temp range is 0° to 140° F)
-- More expensive
-- 1 year warranty
++ Better packaging
++ Serial communication to PC for logging (not usually too useful)

Spartan
++ Lower cost
++ Higher ambient operating temperature range (-40° to 250° F)
++ Factory calibration
++ 2 year warranty
-- Packaging not as robust
-- Longer lead time (ships from Canada)

Some of the issues I have with Innovate sensors do definitely stem from the applications where I've used them-I'm sure tons of other people have had much better luck. Since the price point is so much lower and myself and others have had good experiences I just always like to recommend looking at the 14point7 products too.


This is a off a small tangent from the above, but the NTK O2 sensors seem to be of higher quality than the Bosch sensors so if anyone happens to have an ecu which can natively control them and you can afford the $200+ per sensor you should go that route.

I've used the Innovate MTX-L for the past couple of years without any problems. I particularly like the integrated gauge. Granted my use in not in a race car environment.

Does anyone have recommendations for high impedance injectors that work in the stock mountings?

I found a setup that are stock style injectors that are high-impedance. I'm swapping my turbo car to a newer, better injectors but will require more design time to complete. But the point is that I won't need the injector set off my turbo car if you want to get those. They'll drop in and are sized correctly for our engines.

I used these below when I converted my L-jet to MS:

https://www.fiveomotorsport.com/bosch-yello...b-fuel-injector

Slight hijack...going with the Delphi injectors? Co-worker gave me a set along with the required adapters.

These seem to have a different way of connecting rather than the stock arrangement?

Old style have a barbed fitting and take the stock hose, newer styles all use fuel rails with o-rings.
The fuel rail bolts onto the manifold capturing the the injector into place.

Really if you already have 2.0 D-jet injectors use them, they are good injectors and will simplify things if you are using the stock manifolds.

Any known to work on stock 914 manifold mounts?

Just looking at all of the options before installing the system.

That's why I said to use the 2.0 injectors for stock manifolds and fuel lines, your options are limited for injectors with barbed fittings.
You need barbed ends to clamp hose to, don't even think about clamping hose on an O-ring style injector. No bolt on solution short of fabricating/welding something up for injectors that mount on a fuel rail (O-ring).
You can buy blank fuel rail and drill it for the correct placement, the custom fab part would be how to mount it, the rail has to be secure and straight. It doesn't clamp down on the injector, the injector sort of floats on the O-rings just captured between the rail and manifold.

Pump is pushing 30-40lbs of pressure, fuel rail or hose it's not something you want to do half-assed.

For a stock mounting (hose) my first choice would be 2.0 injectors, which are actually pretty good, even for high performance applications.
2nd would be 1.7 injectors, I'd have to look at spec, but if memory serves me I think they were OK up to about 140 HP.
Do not use 1.8 L-jet injectors for anything but up to a stock 2.0, they have the least flow and are not really adaptable to higher duty cycles.
VW bus and bug are even smaller L-jet injectors.

Not sure what Mark's barbed high impedance injectors are off of, but he knows what works and I bet he'd give you a good deal on them.

The stock 2.0 injectors have enough flow for virtually any 4 cylinder 914 you can build. Just be sure to have them rebuilt and flow tested.

They're custom built by some company for Datsun engines, but they're basically identical to stock. Stock barb fittings to stock fuel rails. You could even use stock elbow fuel lines.

Mark - As you know I am still gathering parts. But I would be interested in looking at the cost of these. I have the resistors for my stock injectors but thought I would look at all of the option before I committed to wiring everything up.

Even though I'm not a huge fan of the stock d-jet electrical connectors used by the old injectors, those injectors flow well enough to run all but a large turbo engine. I ran my 2056cc for years on a set of VW type3 yellow-top injectors @ 40psi and had gobs of power and they flow almost 10# less than a 2.0L injector.

As far as impedance goes, this is why everyone should consider ditching Microsquirt as a plan and step up to either MS3 or one of ECUs from thedubshop.net (I'm talking the one that Mario recently began offering). MicroS is NOT able to be modified, so you're stuck with whatever they offered it with 7-8 years ago or more. Time had marched on and high impedance injectors are the way to go for most, but if you want to run your old injectors, this leaves you having to re-invent the wheel.

If you use one of Mario's new "The Dubshop ECUs", they will run whatever injector you plug into it. It's also weatherproof with a modern harness connector. There's also an on-board O2 sensor controller that saves you $$$ and having to wire it in. . . All the features 99% of folks need without the fuss & muss. Just saying'

It's really easy to get lost in all the obscure details and overthink this stuff, making it over-complicated. Don't. Lots of people give advice on these systems with nothing but second-hand anecdotal experience actually doing them. While pontification is "fun", driving your car is "funner."

I've done the eftermarket fuel injection with another system and if I was to do it all over again I would easily go with the dubshop ecu. It has all you need for a basic four cylinder, Mario can sell you all the senders and parts you need and answer all your questions and help you get it running.

This would be the fastest way to get your car running on EFI. If you want to take the long road to learn yourself thats doable too but its alot more involved process.

Dude enough with the adverts, If you shill his stuff enough do you get a free T-shirt or something?
The OP already has an ECU.

WHAT!??!? Everyone should ditch MicroSquirt so they can run stock low-impedance injectors? This is advice?

MicroSquirt has SO MANY advantages in terms of simplicity for people who just want a simple D-Jet replacement. If you can't see those advantages, you're keeping yourself intentionally blind. Yes, an MS3 has way more advanced features than MicroSquirt. But as you said, "It's really easy to get lost in all the obscure details and overthink this stuff, making it over-complicated." So it seems to me that a small, weatherproof and fully functional ECU would be a step toward simplicity. You're pontificating on the benefits of MS3 because it can be modified and in the next breath promoting simplicity. Those are diametrically opposite. You can't promote both. YOU are letting your DubShop promotion job get in the way of actually helping people.

I have firsthand experience. MicroSquirt works. It does everything most people need for half the price. Please, take the challenge and explain to me how a normally aspirated 2056 needs a fucking MS3!

May just drive it up to you for the install!

Well not really. Looking to learn all I can during the process. I just don't want to develop target fixation on a single solution. Took a while to get to this point. While there are some really good ready to go options. I am just looking to implement a system, for a reasonable cost, that is tunable for the modifications I have. There is so much more that can be done with any of the systems but I am trying to avoid choosing a path way that blocks off options.

So at this point. Starting with a stock FI system that has new injectors and few mods. I have $600 invested. While it is very true that $600 is not running anything yet, I think that I should be able to get it going for very little more.

To be clear, I am spending some money on fixing certain things that are not essential to just getting the car running on the MicroSquirt that I am not adding into the cost. I got new injector wire boot covers from 914 Rubber. Could have used the old ones but they did not look so nice. It is also hard to account for the parts we all have on the shelf that we dive into at times so I won't even try.

I hope to get the TPS done this weekend and start setting up the parameters on the bench for the system.

As much as I like getting work, the biggest kick I get is seeing members do it themselves.
To me that's what this site and this hobby is all about.

But at the same time this info does help the business types, when a member realizes for whatever reason that the job is best left to a pro.
Programmable EFI falls into two categories, you better learn to DIY or have deep pockets to get a pro to do it for you.
I agree if someone just wants a simple system to get'r done, you shouldn't be pushing something with all the bells and whistles.

I have no problem with someone making a shop/product recommendation, but please just once in a thread.
PLEASE!

I was not clear in my response; sorry. The above response was actually meant for those who have yet to purchase an ECU. You can order it from wherever you buy it with the features you want so there's no need to mod it yourself.

The main advantage to MS3 is the resolution in tuning over any of the previous versions. Everything is pretty much built in already so the user just uses what they want and not what they don't.

MS3 for a 2056 is likely more than what most would need, however how many people stay with a 2056 over the life of their cars?? Many people I know tend to want to step up to a larger motor later on. That's where a system capable of more things like sequential fuel & spark become rather important. I run my system on a small street motor and on my race motor. Yes I don't need sequential fuel & spark on a 2056 with the cam that has, but it is important on the other motor I run in this car with the exact same system.

Over the last 5-7 years I have watched and read many threads from folks on this board who have problems getting their Microsquirt systems driving on the street and performing like they should. It's a perfectly capable system, but there are a lot less users of it and therefore less of a pool of knowledgeable people with successful conversions with which to draw experience from when problems arise. That's just not the case with MS2 or MS3.

Say what you will about myself being a "shill" for my friend. I really don't care what you all say about that. His systems/products work and work well and his after sale support is second to none, no matter who you are or where you live. Why would I not mention ANYONE with that reputation?? I don't give anyone any crap about pimping your services. Should I be??

So basically you're saying you are hijacking the OP's thread.
The OP has already bought his system and you are coming damn close to saying he's an idiot for not buying a MS3 and off of your buddy.



As far as anyone recommending Mark. I never hear it over and over again in the same thread. You hear it once and the odd time a single person might concur...but that's it.
This thread has several direct "you need to buy from this guy", twice from you and both of those times after Mike had already bought his system from DIY Autotune. It also has a few more what I'll call indirect references.
Yes not all from you and you can't control what others say, but damn it gets annoying.



So what?

I'm running my 2.6L T4 nickies engine on my 13 year old SDS....oh my god! It's batch fired!
Sure it has the latest V16 chip...but batch fired! The horror!
My bug runs smooth as silk, pretty solid AFR readings, the wife even drives it. She gets good gas milage..I don't.

I've built two 930 engines that run on SDS, one engine and trans is north of $60K and makes 550hp dynoed...and it's batch fired? OMG the ignition is batch fired too!!!!!
Oh the huge manatee!! the dyno must be wrong!!!! It's NOT sequential!!!!!

It's a fucking electronic carburetor and distributor.... not a futuristic fembot with full "sequential" auto suck capabilities.


Sorry Mike, hopefully we can now get this back on track for your project.

Loving this thread!

Looks like the TPS was delivered today. So I have to really start thinking about how I am going to lay this out in the car.

The MicroSquirt is more weather resistant than other boxes so I was considering mounting it in the engine bay.

Because I already have the wideband installed I think I will only need a single relay for the fuel pump and injectors. Would love to see any photos of any in engine bay wiring that people have done.

Injectors don't need a relay, just make sure you use an in-line fuse.
Every powered component should have an in-line fuse.

Was just going to pull the power off the relay to run to the inline fuses!

I know my system isn't the same, but the only relay I have is for the fuel pump.
The ECU will shut off the pump (relay) if it doesn't see a tach signal.

If you don't mind sharing what TPS did you buy and what throttle body are you putting it on

I urge you to follow the suggested Microsquirt wiring diagram(s). The best practice for wiring the power to the Microsquirt ECU, injectors and ignition coils s through a relay. The relay should be switched by the ignition switch so that the ECU etc is only powered when the car's ignition is switched on.

Two unrelated comments:

I have been running a Megasquirt MS3X for over two years now. I chose the MS3X as a kit, which is at the top of the Megasquirt line, because I waned to be able to experiment with various options and because the ECU is only small portion of the cost of the complete system. That said a Microsquirt ECU could have worked very effectively for me for all of the basics.

And slight rant: Most of the problems people have had implementing Megasquirt systems result from being cheap (of course this would never apply to 914 owners). People try to cut corners, use untested components, not verifying basic parameters such as adaquite fuel supply and pressure and using sloppy wiring. Please people, do it right. The Megasquirt / Microsquirt manuals (which were completely rewritten in the past year) lay out all of the best practices you need to have a successful implementation.

I got The TPS and adaptor plate from Mark at Original Customs. Not sure on the make but Mark has it nailed down pretty much. I will post the info when I open the package.

Mounting the TPS on the stock 2.0 throttle body. I am sure there are a lot of other options as I saw something about a Vanwagon throttle body being slightly larger than the stock 2.0.

That is what happening. Just in my case I already have relay controlled power for the ECU. I just happen to have the need to add one additional relay to power the fuel portions. I just did not provide all of the details. My bad.

The vanagon TB mod you're thinking of is for the L-jet plenum.

Oh the huge manatee!! the dyno must be wrong!!!! It's NOT sequential!!!!!


You can spend a lot of time overthinking this stuff, and falling for the sales line of for what your doing and your first time at doing it keep it simple.

SIMPLICITY in the system is worth much more that a .01% improvement of HP on a low raving type-4 and will not be pushed anywhere near a limit that would require precise spark and fuel. going to a degree wheel and a pickup besides points all ready gave you a huge improvement. Batch firing two coils or 4 depending on your setup makes no difference at 5,600 RPM. And your resolution on fuel is all ready much greater than your D-Jet had.

Keep it Simple, thank your self latter that you did.

Carry On.

Got a small bit done. Put together the TPS from McMark. Now I need to find some of those really small connector pins.

Also mounted the MicroSquirt and the relays to get ready for the actual wiring to start.

Click to view attachment

My wiring harness connects to and uses the stock relay panel. It's got the two relays you need and access to them via the four pin FI connection. You can use standard spade connections, or the stock style four pin connector is available. I like your mounting board though.

Looks like you got it sorted out, but I forgot to mention the TPS can be spaced off the adapter plate (which is looks like you did), or you can trim the throttle shaft so everything sits flush.

McMark as others might want to look at a premade arrangement for the harness, could you post a picture of yours?

Apparently I've never taken a picture of a completed harness...

I need to make another one anyway, so I'll do some documentation this time.

Well there you go. After all of the help you have provided me (and many others) finally a good suggestion from the cheap seats.

Ok I'm guilty, but that was for a cam position sensor only. I only know of a single source.
I like Mark, I have bought many things from him in the past. I don't promote him because I think it's called "guilding the lily".

I confirmed that you can't use 36-1 crank wheel mounted behind the fan with a stock AC pulley. Have you decided what to do about this issue?

No, you are not guilty, yours was pertinent information.
I have nothing against the Dub Shop, I was getting annoyed that others were going on and on even after the OP had already bought his system.

Thanks for the confirmation. It seemed that way. Not sure where to go. The dizzy should be the best option but I have to work it out a bit more.

Need to get the fuel part sorted first.

Damn, I was in Anacortes last Tuesday/Wednesday! would have bought you a beer..

I have an AC pulley with magnets in it for a hall pickup. You could use this setup. Not as accurate as a VR sensor, but it works. It's what SDS uses on their setup. I build this pickup mount for an SDS install.

I like that.

Ok to be clear, I have learned just enough about all of this to be really dangerous so bear with me!

Would it not be just as easy to install something like this on the impeller?

You could do that.

Impeller would be a PITA because you have to be able to set the gap between the sensor and magnets.
My first SDS I just drew up some circles on sheet of aluminum, cut it out with a jigsaw, drilled it to bolt to the stock fan spacer washer. The sensor just bolted to the fan housing with a small mount I made.

Here's the link to my first install and it shows how I did the crank mount.

Yes I have been running programmable FI for a long time, longer than anyone on this board.

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?act...;f=2&t=5396

I would think with the hole in the top of the impeller housing it would be easy to thread in the sensor and set it at the correct distance. Pretty much not going to need to set the timing from there after the install.

But I am just sitting here thinking not actually doing.

I just mounted the fan shroud and checked the gap. Gap is not super critical, it's something like .025 to .060", the big one is you never want the magnets to hit the sensor. Once you are happy you red locktite all the screws (blue on the adjuster screws), install the fan and button it up. You should never have to adjust it again.

It took some time but it wasn't that hard to do. If I could find the mount I'd send it to you, but I changed it out several years ago.

That was my first thought. Looked like a easy win.

Guessing other know better.

Nope...you need the timing hole, you have to set the initial timing with a strobe.
The ecu is good, but it can't guess where the timing is set the first time.

Once you enter/adjust the timing value, so that both the ECU and strobe is seeing say 10 degrees BTDC idle at the same time, then you never have to break out the strobe again.