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Mblizzard
Well some minor progress was made.

Finished the TPS wiring.
Click to view attachment
Click to view attachment

Came up with a pretty cool way to install the air temp sensor using the cold start valve.

Click to view attachment
Click to view attachment

And made the injector harness.

Click to view attachment

And made the resistor pack for the injectors.
Click to view attachment
Mblizzard
I was a complete slacker this weekend! Weather was great and my wife said lets enjoy the weekend together so I got nothing done!

Heading to Ukraine next weekend so the progress will be slowed considerable.
McMark
QUOTE(Mblizzard @ Oct 17 2016, 09:15 AM) *

QUOTE(McMark @ Oct 16 2016, 07:36 PM) *

My wiring harness connects to and uses the stock relay panel. It's got the two relays you need and access to them via the four pin FI connection. You can use standard spade connections, or the stock style four pin connector is available. I like your mounting board though.

Looks like you got it sorted out, but I forgot to mention the TPS can be spaced off the adapter plate (which is looks like you did), or you can trim the throttle shaft so everything sits flush.



McMark as others might want to look at a premade arrangement for the harness, could you post a picture of yours?

Found a picture Zach took of my harness and remembered this thread.

IPB Image
Montreal914
This was an interesting thread, any progress? smile.gif Thank you.

chowtime.gif popcorn[1].gif
Mblizzard
A bit stalled due to time and work crunches. But will be turning back to it soon.
Mblizzard
Ok so a few things have moved on so i am now returning to this!

Seems like I have all of my parts now as i just picked up a Idle Air control valve.

After rethinking a few things i decided to get rid of the low impeadance injectors and buy new high impeadance ones. Kind of blows my low dollar approach but it seems that if i was really going for a modern system then i might as well go all in.

Gone through some bench testing of the components and it seems like everything is measuring as it should. Temp gauges, TPS, MAP all seem to be working.

Wish I could easily use a sequential injector fire approach but seems like i will be using batch fire. Maybe with the modern feed back controls it wont be an issue.

Should have a free weekend next week and start the swap then.

As a question what is the best way to deal with the wires that are not being used for a fuel only appliacation?
McMark
You'll never notice the difference between sequential injection an batch injection.

QUOTE
As a question what is the best way to deal with the wires that are not being used for a fuel only appliacation?
I'd remove them at the main connector. But if you're gonna leave them, get some small heat shrink and put a little section off the end of each wire (half on, half off, then shrink). Then use large heat shink to collect unused wires into a bundle.
Mblizzard
I am sure there are other places to get the high impedance injectors that will work with the stock injector hold downs but I happened to find them here if anyone else is looking for them.

Mblizzard
QUOTE(McMark @ May 8 2017, 03:40 AM) *

You'll never notice the difference between sequential injection an batch injection.

QUOTE
As a question what is the best way to deal with the wires that are not being used for a fuel only appliacation?
I'd remove them at the main connector. But if you're gonna leave them, get some small heat shrink and put a little section off the end of each wire (half on, half off, then shrink). Then use large heat shink to collect unused wires into a bundle.


At the risk of proving to the world just how big an idiot i am, what is the process for removing wires from the harness?
VaccaRabite
QUOTE(Mblizzard @ May 9 2017, 08:13 PM) *

QUOTE(McMark @ May 8 2017, 03:40 AM) *

You'll never notice the difference between sequential injection an batch injection.

QUOTE
As a question what is the best way to deal with the wires that are not being used for a fuel only appliacation?
I'd remove them at the main connector. But if you're gonna leave them, get some small heat shrink and put a little section off the end of each wire (half on, half off, then shrink). Then use large heat shink to collect unused wires into a bundle.


At the risk of proving to the world just how big an idiot i am, what is the process for removing wires from the harness?


gently cut off the shrink wrap around the wire harness.
isolate the wires that you want to remove.
the AmpSeal block unlocks at the front and rear. do some you tube research on how to seat and unseat wires in the Ampseal. It is easy to break the block at the locking tabs. Pull the wires out of the Ampseal. Rewrap the harness in heat shrink tube or wire harness wrap.

Zach
Mblizzard
So but sure! Got done with the bench testing and strarted the install.

Removed old FI stuff. Installed air temperature sensor.

Click to view attachment

Got the new throttle body installed.

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Not there yet. But will keep working. Also decided to add Bluetooth to the system so that I can run EFI Analytics Shadow Dash.
Mblizzard
Got the Bluetooth connection working with Shadowdash. Using cheap $90 Android tablet with EFI Bluetooth connector. Flawless so far. Click to view attachment
Mblizzard
Oh yea got new high impeadance injectors in today. Injectors, new seals, and connectors $75 each. Not too bad.

Click to view attachment
VaccaRabite
QUOTE(Mblizzard @ May 15 2017, 08:02 PM) *

Got the Bluetooth connection working with Shadowdash. Using cheap $90 Android tablet with EFI Bluetooth connector. Flawless so far. Click to view attachment

What bluetooth connector did you use?
How are you powering it?

Pics please!
Zach
Mblizzard
QUOTE(Vacca Rabite @ May 15 2017, 05:16 PM) *

QUOTE(Mblizzard @ May 15 2017, 08:02 PM) *

Got the Bluetooth connection working with Shadowdash. Using cheap $90 Android tablet with EFI Bluetooth connector. Flawless so far.

What bluetooth connector did you use?
How are you powering it?

Pics please!
Zach


Using the EFI Battery Powered RS232 Bluetooth Adapter (MicroSquirt). It has a battery option and can be run on standard 5V from a mini USB connector or its internal battery.

Click to view attachment

Planning on adding a cheap USB voltage converter and hardwiring it to switched power.

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Has switch to let it run on battery or external power. Pretty neat since the Microsquirt does not provide power.
DRPHIL914
Mike,

id be curious to see what the whole process of conversion ends up costing. I know you are doingmost of this work. With all the issues we have with maintaining out d-jet systems due to MPS issues etc, I'm surprised no one has ever put together a plug and play system, ecu with harness, connectors to the relay board etc. confused24.gif
Mblizzard
QUOTE(Philip W. @ May 16 2017, 06:35 AM) *

Mike,

id be curious to see what the whole process of conversion ends up costing. I know you are doing most of this work. With all the issues we have with maintaining out d-jet systems due to MPS issues etc, I'm surprised no one has ever put together a plug and play system, ecu with harness, connectors to the relay board etc. confused24.gif


I believe McMark of Original Customs has the closest set up that is out there. I am not sure if the ECU is already programed or not on his version.

But I think a Fuel only options that works could be purchased as well.

Before I let things get away from me I had everything ready to go for just over $650. This used a number of the stock components like injectors, CHT, AAR, and other things I cant remember.

After the $650, new injectors, Bluetooth, Android tablet, GPS, modern idle air control valve, and such pushed it to $1000 range. But these are toys not a must for the conversion.

I don't have it running yet but with the Auto Tune feature of Tuner Studio I am hopping I don't have to spend too much time programing settings
DRPHIL914
cool, thanks for info- looking forward to seeing this in September- I have an occasional buck I cant explain that comes when driving only , not under heavy load , usually cruising or slight acceleration- not the same as one I had due to the tps before I replaced it.- and it bugs me enough that I will try one or two more thinks before deciding to go this route myself, so that's why I ask, trying to get an idea for what I would be into if I went this route too. I do have a local shop, Bob Woodman tires that has lots of experience with these in the 911 community so if I need help I know its available but im a glutton for punishment and would attempt to do it myself first
ChrisFoley
QUOTE(Philip W. @ May 16 2017, 11:35 AM) *

I have an occasional buck I cant explain that comes when driving only , not under heavy load , usually cruising or slight acceleration-

Slightly too lean will do this. A small adjustment to the MPS to richen the mixture might eliminate your light throttle hesitation.
Mblizzard
QUOTE(Racer Chris @ May 16 2017, 07:43 AM) *

QUOTE(Philip W. @ May 16 2017, 11:35 AM) *

I have an occasional buck I cant explain that comes when driving only , not under heavy load , usually cruising or slight acceleration-

Slightly too lean will do this. A small adjustment to the MPS to richen the mixture might eliminate your light throttle hesitation.


If you don't have an AFR gauge installed yet that can help confirm what Chris was saying.

I had that for a while and eventually was able to get it smoothed out. But as I adjusted fro one thing it always seemed that something else got out of whack so I decided to quit chasing.
Mblizzard
Slow,but just a little bit each day. New high impeadance injectors prepped for install. Click to view attachment
Montreal914
I like it! beer.gif popcorn[1].gif
Mblizzard
VW Passat idle air control valve for cold starts. Hopefully better than the 40 year old Auxiliary air valve. At this one can be controlled.


Click to view attachment
DRPHIL914
QUOTE(Mblizzard @ May 17 2017, 06:12 AM) *

VW Passat idle air control valve for cold starts. Hopefully better than the 40 year old Auxiliary air valve. At this one can be controlled.


Click to view attachment

interesting!, I have not seen this discussed before- could this be used with a d-jet application as well??
DRPHIL914
QUOTE(Mblizzard @ May 16 2017, 11:51 AM) *

QUOTE(Racer Chris @ May 16 2017, 07:43 AM) *

QUOTE(Philip W. @ May 16 2017, 11:35 AM) *

I have an occasional buck I cant explain that comes when driving only , not under heavy load , usually cruising or slight acceleration-

Slightly too lean will do this. A small adjustment to the MPS to richen the mixture might eliminate your light throttle hesitation.


If you don't have an AFR gauge installed yet that can help confirm what Chris was saying.

I had that for a while and eventually was able to get it smoothed out. But as I adjusted fro one thing it always seemed that something else got out of whack so I decided to quit chasing.

thanks for input- sorry for the highjack-
yes I have a AF meter installed, and I have been playing around with it for some time, I have now tuned 2 MPS that are pretty dialed in- here is what I have observed, just this week since weather has been perfect ive been driving the car to work which is a 25 mile , 30 minute commute- the AFR reads about 12.7-13.4 on cruising now, but when the hesitation hits the A/F meter reads suddenly more rich, like a drop in the gauge reading to a 9.5-10, and its just for a split second. my first thought was TPS but this board is new(once replaced it got rid of the bucking on acceleration at 3000rpm that is common with a bad board- I have zero issue on hard acceleration) so then my next thought was grounding but that would cut out the injector firing and lean it not make it more rich right?? I defer to those with more experience playing around with this.

like I said , sorry for the highjack but I know you played around with yours for a long time before going to this system,- but I am watching close to your progress and very interested in seeing how the system comes together- I think you are going to really like the ability to program on the go with a system like this!!!

so please keep updating us with all the exciting and boring details! LOTS OF PICS!
Mblizzard
QUOTE(Philip W. @ May 17 2017, 04:54 AM) *

QUOTE(Mblizzard @ May 17 2017, 06:12 AM) *

VW Passat idle air control valve for cold starts. Hopefully better than the 40 year old Auxiliary air valve. At this one can be controlled.


Click to view attachment

interesting!, I have not seen this discussed before- could this be used with a d-jet application as well??


No way to control it on D-Jet. It uses pulse width modulation to control the opening something that the D-Jet just cant do. I did play with using a normally close electrically controlled valve and a thermal switch to replace the AAV. worked pretty well but it was and off or on approach so there was no gradual transition between open and closed.
VaccaRabite
QUOTE(Mblizzard @ May 17 2017, 06:12 AM) *

VW Passat idle air control valve for cold starts. Hopefully better than the 40 year old Auxiliary air valve. At this one can be controlled.


Click to view attachment

This is exactly what I need to add for my car.

Zach
Mblizzard
Big day! More wires in the car now than on the bench!

Click to view attachment

New injectors installed and wired!

Click to view attachment

Placed idle air valve in an out of the way but close location.

Click to view attachment

Getting closer. A few more days of working and should be ready to start it!



Mblizzard
QUOTE(Vacca Rabite @ May 21 2017, 03:27 PM) *

QUOTE(Mblizzard @ May 17 2017, 06:12 AM) *

VW Passat idle air control valve for cold starts. Hopefully better than the 40 year old Auxiliary air valve. At this one can be controlled.


Click to view attachment

This is exactly what I need to add for my car.

Zach




Got it for $28 off evil bay. I can get you the link.
Mblizzard
I had a question about changing to new high impeadance injectors. I never checked the old ones but I am sure of my flow rates and that the injectors are matched. May not make ny difference but i a;ways felt i had one injector that caused a cylinder to run rich. Made it hard to work with the D-jet limitations.

Working from a matched set now.

Click to view attachment
crash914
You most likely will need to adjust your fuel pressure. Stock D-jet systems used 2 bar fuel pressure. If you look at your flow sheet, minimum flow was 3 bar. This might not make any difference, except for the flow pattern of the spray at 2 bar. (Volume however, is completely different and will require tuning after any change)
Mblizzard
QUOTE(crash914 @ May 22 2017, 02:01 AM) *

You most likely will need to adjust your fuel pressure. Stock D-jet systems used 2 bar fuel pressure. If you look at your flow sheet, minimum flow was 3 bar. This might not make any difference, except for the flow pattern of the spray at 2 bar. (Volume however, is completely different and will require tuning after any change)


Yep already adjusted. It seems like the stock fuel pressure regulator tops out at about 50 lbs. I am at about 43 lbs. now so I will used that as the starting point.

Also you get some good info for programing the fuel set up regarding
dead times. Not sure how much difference it makes but the software suggested a dead time of 0.9 ms at 13.2 volts. Looks like I have 0.622 ms.
Mblizzard
QUOTE(Mblizzard @ May 21 2017, 05:00 PM) *

QUOTE(Vacca Rabite @ May 21 2017, 03:27 PM) *

QUOTE(Mblizzard @ May 17 2017, 06:12 AM) *

VW Passat idle air control valve for cold starts. Hopefully better than the 40 year old Auxiliary air valve. At this one can be controlled.


Click to view attachment

This is exactly what I need to add for my car.

Zach




Got it for $28 off evil bay. I can get you the link.


Here is the Link.
VaccaRabite
QUOTE(Mblizzard @ May 21 2017, 09:00 PM) *

QUOTE(Vacca Rabite @ May 21 2017, 03:27 PM) *

QUOTE(Mblizzard @ May 17 2017, 06:12 AM) *

VW Passat idle air control valve for cold starts. Hopefully better than the 40 year old Auxiliary air valve. At this one can be controlled.


Click to view attachment

This is exactly what I need to add for my car.

Zach




Got it for $28 off evil bay. I can get you the link.

Thanks!

Zach
Mblizzard
Not a lot of progress. Checking wires and settings. Hope tô Starr this weekend.
VaccaRabite
QUOTE(Vacca Rabite @ May 25 2017, 12:53 PM) *

QUOTE(Mblizzard @ May 21 2017, 09:00 PM) *

QUOTE(Vacca Rabite @ May 21 2017, 03:27 PM) *

QUOTE(Mblizzard @ May 17 2017, 06:12 AM) *

VW Passat idle air control valve for cold starts. Hopefully better than the 40 year old Auxiliary air valve. At this one can be controlled.


Click to view attachment

This is exactly what I need to add for my car.

Zach




Got it for $28 off evil bay. I can get you the link.

Thanks

Zach

Does the connector on your IAC have only 2 prongs and 2 wires or 3 prongs and you only used 2 wires?
Zach
Mblizzard
QUOTE(Vacca Rabite @ May 26 2017, 05:04 AM) *

QUOTE(Vacca Rabite @ May 25 2017, 12:53 PM) *

QUOTE(Mblizzard @ May 21 2017, 09:00 PM) *

QUOTE(Vacca Rabite @ May 21 2017, 03:27 PM) *

QUOTE(Mblizzard @ May 17 2017, 06:12 AM) *

VW Passat idle air control valve for cold starts. Hopefully better than the 40 year old Auxiliary air valve. At this one can be controlled.


Click to view attachment

This is exactly what I need to add for my car.

Zach




Got it for $28 off evil bay. I can get you the link.

Thanks

Zach

Does the connector on your IAC have only 2 prongs and 2 wires or 3 prongs and you only used 2 wires?
Zach


It is a 2 wire. Forgot to buy the connector so I had to make one. Seems to work well using the PWM method. I have just verified the operation and have not verified the settings required to keep the car running.
Mblizzard
Well so close yet nothing. Seems like I have about everything wired up but can't get it to run. Seems like somehow I am failing to be able to trigger the injectors off the coil. No fuel!

Stumped at this point.
McMark
Triggering off the coil sucks. sad.gif
Mblizzard
Ok had is give up on the coil trigger. sheeplove.gif

But I have a 123 electronic dizzy with electronic trigger points. So I thought why not pull a signal off of the electronic points. So I removed all of the coil set up and used the VR channel to pick up a tach signal. And it worked. So it is not perfect as I just used the basic trigger method and I think I have some adjustments to do to smooth it out. But it started and runs. piratenanner.gif

Running rich and erratic on the tach signal but running.

Any thoughts on the tigger angle offset! I thin that the tach is reading high as it may be seeing double the pluses at the dizzy as it would see at the crank.
McMark
The offset angle won't really matter while you're not controlling ignition with the MS. Injector spray timing isn't anywhere close to critical. If it's a few milliseconds off the fuel will essentially just wait in the port for the valve to open.

So the electronic points is essentially a TDC trigger, but it doesn't matter if TDC in reality is sync'd with TDC in the computer. That's what offset angle is for, to fine tune (or sync) the computer and the engine. When you're controlling ignition from the MS, it's crititcally important that TDC be in sync, so when the computer is trying to provide 12degrees of advance, that's actually happening at 12 degrees BTDC.

Fuel doesn't really care.

But if you ever try to run ignition, none of this will work.
Mblizzard
QUOTE(McMark @ May 29 2017, 04:04 AM) *

The offset angle won't really matter while you're not controlling ignition with the MS. Injector spray timing isn't anywhere close to critical. If it's a few milliseconds off the fuel will essentially just wait in the port for the valve to open.

So the electronic points is essentially a TDC trigger, but it doesn't matter if TDC in reality is sync'd with TDC in the computer. That's what offset angle is for, to fine tune (or sync) the computer and the engine. When you're controlling ignition from the MS, it's crititcally important that TDC be in sync, so when the computer is trying to provide 12degrees of advance, that's actually happening at 12 degrees BTDC.

Fuel doesn't really care.

But if you ever try to run ignition, none of this will work.


Seem to be getting double,tach signal out of trigger points. Any way tom1/2 that in the software.
McMark
Check the dual/multi spark options under ignition. You might have luck setting it to Single Cam Wheel Input.
Mblizzard
QUOTE(McMark @ May 29 2017, 11:50 AM) *

Check the dual/multi spark options under ignition. You might have luck setting it to Single Cam Wheel Input.


I am using Tunner Studios and don't see this option.

As a back up get me a quote for a trigger wheel and sensor as I am tired of screwing with this.
VaccaRabite
Did you ever hardwire the bluetooth adapter in? How are you powering it, since the Microsquirt serial cable does not send power?

Zach
McMark
QUOTE(Mblizzard @ May 29 2017, 08:10 PM) *
I am using Tunner Studios and don't see this option.

It's under the Ignition Setup -> Dual/Multi Spark Options. You are running the MicroSquirt firmware, right? MSII firmware has different menus.

QUOTE(Mblizzard @ May 29 2017, 08:10 PM) *
As a back up get me a quote for a trigger wheel and sensor as I am tired of screwing with this.
A VR/Hall sensor and toothed wheel is the only way to go, whether it's my setup, Mario's setup, or homemade. Reliable RPM is necessary to correctly calculate fuel demands and if you ever want to run ignition is absolutely necessary.

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=97550
Mblizzard
QUOTE(Vacca Rabite @ May 29 2017, 07:53 PM) *

Did you ever hardwire the bluetooth adapter in? How are you powering it, since the Microsquirt serial cable does not send power?

Zach


Pretty straight forward. Used a cheap 12V to 5V Power Supply with Mini USB Interface. About $8 Amazon.

Click to view attachment

Ran the standard cable to center consul and ready to go.
Mblizzard
QUOTE(McMark @ May 30 2017, 04:53 AM) *

QUOTE(Mblizzard @ May 29 2017, 08:10 PM) *
I am using Tunner Studios and don't see this option.

It's under the Ignition Setup -> Dual/Multi Spark Options. You are running the MicroSquirt firmware, right? MSII firmware has different menus.

QUOTE(Mblizzard @ May 29 2017, 08:10 PM) *
As a back up get me a quote for a trigger wheel and sensor as I am tired of screwing with this.
A VR/Hall sensor and toothed wheel is the only way to go, whether it's my setup, Mario's setup, or homemade. Reliable RPM is necessary to correctly calculate fuel demands and if you ever want to run ignition is absolutely necessary.

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=97550


Well taking this approach will require an engine drop headbang.gif Not what I want to do.

There has to be some way to make this coil approach work. Going to work with the coil a bit more to see if I can get something working.

What I really need is a way to get the trigger point signal into the ECU.
McMark
QUOTE(Mblizzard @ May 30 2017, 10:34 AM) *
What I really need is a way to get the trigger point signal into the ECU.

That would be 1/4 engine speed.
Mblizzard
QUOTE(McMark @ May 30 2017, 07:25 AM) *

QUOTE(Mblizzard @ May 30 2017, 10:34 AM) *
What I really need is a way to get the trigger point signal into the ECU.

That would be 1/4 engine speed.


I am thinking 1/2. The signal is separated into 2 banks and I only will use one of them since it is batch fire.
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