It has been a great pleasure following your journey so far. Your skills and dedication are an inspiration.
Cairo94507
Sep 15 2020, 05:53 AM
Congratulations Chris. That is just awesome.
Andyrew
Sep 15 2020, 08:00 AM
Whooo! Congrats Chris! Are you able to log and send to your tuner for reviews and tweaking?
tygaboy
Sep 15 2020, 09:22 AM
QUOTE(Andyrew @ Sep 15 2020, 07:00 AM)
Whooo! Congrats Chris! Are you able to log and send to your tuner for reviews and tweaking?
@Andyrew - Well, you asked so I'll take that as permission to get into the detail:
While I'm OK "learning as I go / give it a try" on most things, with the ITBs, I'm opting to hand the car over to an expert - here's why:
Turns out that during the initial dyno run, there was a mis-pinned IAC connector in the factory Holley harness (I mentioned this in an earlier post) AND the tech loosened the butterfly shafts and disconnected the throttle return springs on four of the ITBs. I will say, the throttle was VERY stiff but...
In conversation with Borla and the tuner they recommended, I was told that the ITB build process includes heat cycling the complete assembly and rechecking that everything remains in spec. Yes, that means my ITBs MAY need to be pulled and sent back to the factory for checking.
The LS pulls a ton of air and without all the return springs, the butterflies weren't fully closing, making it impossible to get a reliable idle. I talked with the tuner yesterday and he said to go ahead and get all the return springs back on. I did that and magically, the car comes back to a sub-1000 RPM idle. That said, it's clear the tune is still WAY off.
The other thing that was way off was how they'd adjusted the throttle linkage at the capstan. It looks like they were after geometry that gave them leverage over the springs, vs one that gave a progressive off-idle pedal. I took a swing at adjusting the linkage and it made a HUGE improvement. Do I have a future as a tuner?
The car is being delivered to the tuner on Monday, Sept 21.
I asked him if he wanted me to send any data ahead of time and he said that given what we now know, it's really not worth it as he'll want to start from scratch.
Next time I do an engine swap, I think I'll use a Briggs & Straton 5 hp. That there is some tech I can master...
jd74914
Sep 15 2020, 09:34 AM
QUOTE(tygaboy @ Sep 15 2020, 10:22 AM)
In conversation with Borla and the tuner they recommended, I was told that the ITB build process includes heat cycling the complete assembly and rechecking that everything remains in spec. Yes, that means my ITBs MAY need to be pulled and sent back to the factory for checking.
Seriously? That's absurd. I've never heard of anything like that before. Too bad you can't get DBW ITBs and program the relationship between pedal and throttle position to your liking.
At least they look cool!
horizontally-opposed
Sep 15 2020, 09:52 AM
QUOTE(tygaboy @ Sep 14 2020, 01:49 PM)
Mission 914 on 9/14 accomplished.
I drove the car around the block, maybe just over a mile. Sorry, no video as I was flying solo and was otherwise occupied with the plethora of things one tries to watch and listen for on a "first time out".
I got the car into 4th gear, just to shift it a bit and that all went to plan. The induction system is another matter. It's in serious need of tuning. Poor, poor drive-ability, backfires, etc. I won't go into what I discovered already but I'm confident that once it's tuned by an expert, it'll be good to go. I'm trying to get the appt in the next couple weeks.
Until then, I did officially drive it on 914 day so hooray for me!
For now, it's back to the still-outstanding fab work and assembly of minor items.
More once it's back from the tuner. That's when the real fun should begin.
This may be goofy, but…this post made me smile on a morning I could use one. Congrats, Chris—the weight and alignment are both superb results!
And I can already see this car is gonna be a looker. Love your development arc, and glad you are going to sort the car before painting it. You'll find your true north on the visuals as you live with it a bit...
tygaboy
Sep 15 2020, 09:58 AM
QUOTE(jd74914 @ Sep 15 2020, 08:34 AM)
QUOTE(tygaboy @ Sep 15 2020, 10:22 AM)
In conversation with Borla and the tuner they recommended, I was told that the ITB build process includes heat cycling the complete assembly and rechecking that everything remains in spec. Yes, that means my ITBs MAY need to be pulled and sent back to the factory for checking.
Seriously? That's absurd. I've never heard of anything like that before. Too bad you can't get DBW ITBs and program the relationship between pedal and throttle position to your liking.
At least they look cool!
@jd74914 - There are DBW ITBs out there. If I didn't already have these, I'd be looking at them. The tuner did mention that the model ITBs I have are the "new" style. It's the previous version that are sensitive to being messed with. I think he was just being cautious, given he's not seen things in person and has no idea what they've been through. To your point that they look cool: They certainly do. Better than that, the tuner said I should expect them to be totally daily drive usable, in the same way the stock intake is. If that turns out not to be the case, off they'll come and I'll use something else.
I told you guys I was going to be totally transparent with this whole build, including the challenging stuff, the successes AND failures. Having spent a LOT of $ on the initial dyno work, this is quite disappointing. But then, I don't think I've ever heard of a build where something(s) don't go off the rails.
I met the "drive my 914 0n 9/14" goal and the next one is that my car is an "active participant" at the Nov WCR. Wish me luck!
jaredmcginness
Sep 15 2020, 10:13 AM
QUOTE(tygaboy @ Sep 14 2020, 04:49 PM)
Mission 914 on 9/14 accomplished.
Ahh! That's so exciting and must be an amazing feeling. Congrats, hopefully joining you soon.
Andyrew
Sep 15 2020, 11:08 AM
QUOTE(tygaboy @ Sep 15 2020, 08:22 AM)
The car is being delivered to the tuner on Monday, Sept 21.
I asked him if he wanted me to send any data ahead of time and he said that given what we now know, it's really not worth it as he'll want to start from scratch.
Next time I do an engine swap, I think I'll use a Briggs & Straton 5 hp. That there is some tech I can master...
If anything, thats quick progress! Is he anticipating having it for a week? Does he have a rolling dyno or is he going to street tune it?
Also when is paint!!!!
fiacra
Sep 15 2020, 11:36 AM
[/quote] I met the "drive my 914 0n 9/14" goal and the next one is that my car is an "active participant" at the Nov WCR. Wish me luck! [/quote]
Congratulations!!! I signed up for the WCR with the hope I would see you driving the car. Looking forward to it. As always, your build is impressive and I feel like I learn something every time I catch up on this thread. Next to you I feel like an oil change tech at a Jiffy Lube!!
ChrisFoley
Sep 15 2020, 01:12 PM
tygaboy
Sep 15 2020, 01:29 PM
QUOTE(Andyrew @ Sep 15 2020, 10:08 AM)
If anything, thats quick progress! Is he anticipating having it for a week? Does he have a rolling dyno or is he going to street tune it?
Also when is paint!!!!
@Andyrew The tuner said he wants it for a couple days, but that may change, depending on what it needs. I can't imagine it'll be much more than that.
The place I'm using is Autotrend EFI. They have an impressive portfolio: stuff like EFI system design and tuning for Brizio Street Rods' builds, Great 8 award winners, etc.
Dave, the owner, was recommended by Borla as the best so I'm trusting he can get me there.
I want to do WCR, as well as drive the thing for a bit and prove out I really am done with fabrication, hole drilling and have all the needed welding completed, etc. With a bit of luck, that'll happen end of November-ish. Then it's strip it back to the bare chassis and send it off for prep and paint.
I hope to have it back on the road Spring 2021. Of course, then it'll be for sale...
Andyrew
Sep 15 2020, 01:50 PM
QUOTE(tygaboy @ Sep 15 2020, 12:29 PM)
QUOTE(Andyrew @ Sep 15 2020, 10:08 AM)
If anything, thats quick progress! Is he anticipating having it for a week? Does he have a rolling dyno or is he going to street tune it?
Also when is paint!!!!
@Andyrew The tuner said he wants it for a couple days, but that may change, depending on what it needs. I can't imagine it'll be much more than that.
The place I'm using is Autotrend EFI. They have an impressive portfolio: stuff like EFI system design and tuning for Brizio Street Rods' builds, Great 8 award winners, etc.
Dave, the owner, was recommended by Borla as the best so I'm trusting he can get me there.
I want to do WCR, as well as drive the thing for a bit and prove out I really am done with fabrication, hole drilling and have all the needed welding completed, etc. With a bit of luck, that'll happen end of November-ish. Then it's strip it back to the bare chassis and send it off for prep and paint.
I hope to have it back on the road Spring 2021. Of course, then it'll be for sale...
That looks like a really good shop! Front page is full of ITB's so looks like your in good hands!
Cant wait to see it soon Im itching to get back out to the Red Barn!
I forgot you mentioned your were going to sell it!
Cairo94507
Sep 15 2020, 01:57 PM
More of a journey and not the destination kind of a thing?
Army Roger
Sep 15 2020, 02:57 PM
And I thought my fabrication skills were good. I'm humbly going to bed now. Very impressive.
tygaboy
Sep 20 2020, 05:11 PM
Ready for tomorrow morning's trip to the tuner. With a bit of luck and tuner skill, I expect I'll be making the first, full road test by next weekend. The goal is to have it dialed in and ready for WCR in Nov.
And just to set expectations, that'll be with the windshield taped in, the roof taped on, no seals/weatherstripping, no interior, etc., etc.
djway
Sep 20 2020, 06:00 PM
Plasma table said it’s lonely. Ok, it’s me, I miss all the new cool bits you come up with. May your tuner be pitch perfect and the road rise to you.
tygaboy
Sep 20 2020, 07:06 PM
QUOTE(djway @ Sep 20 2020, 05:00 PM)
Plasma table said it’s lonely. Ok, it’s me, I miss all the new cool bits you come up with. May your tuner be pitch perfect and the road rise to you.
Oh, please! I still have to fab a front latch / catch system for the trunk lid, replace the rear tail light panel (what might that open up, design-wise?), invent some sort of door panels...
I also have what I think is a neat-o design for the rockers as well as the rear bumper. All I'm saying is that there's plenty of fab left to go.
Oh, and the hood vent, too...
djway
Sep 20 2020, 08:38 PM
QUOTE(tygaboy @ Sep 20 2020, 06:06 PM)
QUOTE(djway @ Sep 20 2020, 05:00 PM)
Plasma table said it’s lonely. Ok, it’s me, I miss all the new cool bits you come up with. May your tuner be pitch perfect and the road rise to you.
Oh, please! I still have to fab a front latch / catch system for the trunk lid, replace the rear tail light panel (what might that open up, design-wise?), invent some sort of door panels...
I also have what I think is a neat-o design for the rockers as well as the rear bumper. All I'm saying is that there's plenty of fab left to go.
Oh, and the hood vent, too...
Just hook me up to an IV drip and keep the cool flowing....
ri914
Sep 20 2020, 08:39 PM
QUOTE(tygaboy @ Sep 20 2020, 09:06 PM)
QUOTE(djway @ Sep 20 2020, 05:00 PM)
Plasma table said it’s lonely. Ok, it’s me, I miss all the new cool bits you come up with. May your tuner be pitch perfect and the road rise to you.
Oh, please! I still have to fab a front latch / catch system for the trunk lid, replace the rear tail light panel (what might that open up, design-wise?), invent some sort of door panels...
I also have what I think is a neat-o design for the rockers as well as the rear bumper. All I'm saying is that there's plenty of fab left to go.
Oh, and the hood vent, too...
What are you thinking for a hood vent? I am designing one now
Andyrew
Sep 21 2020, 08:29 AM
tygaboy
Sep 21 2020, 01:46 PM
I dub this post "(Hopefully), you know you're working with the right tuner when:"
- you start your car to get it off the trailer, it fires right up and idles pretty well. You pull it into the shop and the tuner instantly says "yeah, that's not right..."
- ITBs are on every one of the engines in the shop.
- the restomod Pantera he's working on is easily Ridler/Singer-level build quality, and he did the engine wiring, which is all but invisible and what you can see is, well, perfect. I need to get pics of this thing. It's beyond incredible.
- every question (those who know me know I have lots!) is patiently and thoroughly answered.
He expects to have things essentially sorted in a few days, then I go back up late this week for an "I drive while he tunes" session.
Can't hardly wait!
Andyrew
Sep 21 2020, 02:09 PM
QUOTE(tygaboy @ Sep 21 2020, 12:46 PM)
I dub this post "(Hopefully), you know you're working with the right tuner when:"
- you start your car to get it off the trailer, it fires right up and idles pretty well. You pull it into the shop and the tuner instantly says "yeah, that's not right..."
- ITBs are on every one of the engines in the shop.
- the restomod Pantera he's working on is easily Ridler/Singer-level build quality, and he did the engine wiring, which is all but invisible and what you can see is, well, perfect. I need to get pics of this thing. It's beyond incredible.
- every question (those who know me know I have lots!) is patiently and thoroughly answered.
He expects to have things essentially sorted in a few days, then I go back up late this week for an "I drive while he tunes" session.
Can't hardly wait!
Awesome!!! I love those days Your gonna need a lot of space
Cairo94507
Sep 21 2020, 02:18 PM
I know the feeling when you find the right shop for the job. Glad your car is at the tuner to get it sorted. I can't wait for the driving video and to see it in person.
djway
Sep 21 2020, 02:22 PM
QUOTE(tygaboy @ Sep 21 2020, 12:46 PM)
I dub this post "(Hopefully), you know you're working with the right tuner when:"
- you start your car to get it off the trailer, it fires right up and idles pretty well. You pull it into the shop and the tuner instantly says "yeah, that's not right..."
- ITBs are on every one of the engines in the shop.
- the restomod Pantera he's working on is easily Ridler/Singer-level build quality, and he did the engine wiring, which is all but invisible and what you can see is, well, perfect. I need to get pics of this thing. It's beyond incredible.
- every question (those who know me know I have lots!) is patiently and thoroughly answered.
He expects to have things essentially sorted in a few days, then I go back up late this week for an "I drive while he tunes" session.
Can't hardly wait!
Pictures of the Pantera please. Most fun I ever had driving was in a Pantera.....
Dion
Sep 21 2020, 04:58 PM
“He expects to have things essentially sorted in a few days, then I go back up late this week for an "I drive while he tunes" session.” —————
That’s fantastic Chris. It’ll be great to see this engine at its potential !
tygaboy
Sep 21 2020, 05:54 PM
PROGRESS!!!!
The tuner jumped right on it and reports that he's found and fixed a few issues. Some that I created... Despite my best efforts, I had flipped a couple sensor wires. Embarrassing but I told you I'd be fully transparent. In my (weak-ass) defense, it was the first time I've done any wiring work and we all know I need at least 3 tries to get anything right!
Hey, at least I'm consistent!
I'm just thankful there are experts I can work with to help debug and fix my mistakes!
Turns out I only messed up the wiring on one of the sensors. The tuner said the IAC was wired to what the Borla system needs but I ended up with a different model sensor. His perspective is that the "mis-wiring" isn't something I could have known about and he gave me a pass on that one.
So, I'm only 1/2 as bad a wiring tech as I thought I was 20 minutes ago!
But this sort of thing makes me wonder how many folks are out there with poorly performing systems and are only a simple wire swap away from greatly improved drive-ability. Remember, the car starts and runs, just not as well as it should/could. And a big part of my car's issue is/was the ITBs being in sync and having a correctly adjusted linkage.
But this wiring thing is perhaps a good example of a situation that could lead to folks hearing that ITBs don't work well at anything but WOT/race pace.
Andyrew
Sep 21 2020, 07:42 PM
I watch a LOT of tuner videos and Dyno shop owners. This is so common that its always the first thing they check... Injector wiring, IAT wiring, MAF wiring, and a few other common ones.
Awesome progress! This is the kind of thing you would waste months or years (my case) chasing. The few extra dollars you pay for a quality tuner are worth their weight in gold.
bbrock
Sep 22 2020, 12:45 PM
QUOTE(Cairo94507 @ Sep 21 2020, 02:18 PM)
I know the feeling when you find the right shop for the job. Glad your car is at the tuner to get it sorted. I can't wait for the driving video and to see it in person.
Screw the video! I just need to know when to set my gaze toward the west as Chris streaks across the Montana sky just before the sonic boom hits.
solex
Sep 22 2020, 02:42 PM
please delete
tygaboy
Sep 23 2020, 07:29 PM
First drive after ITB sync, linkage adjust and new tune being loaded. It's the tuner driving - I wasn't there. And yes, he apologized for the less than stellar video. The rattle you hear is the shifter. The car has no tunnel cover, carpets, or glass so it's quite noisy.
All the adjustments and tuning prior to this drive video was done with the car sitting still, before any of the critical "tune while driving" work, so still a ways to go.
The tuner is recommending I get the car home and take care of a couple things we now know need addressing. In particular, the throttle tip in is too abrupt, which has been a concern since it first fired up, as you all know. I have some ideas about how to improve it, now that we know for sure it needs help.
So, I'm heading up to tomorrow to retrieve it, redesign the throttle linkage and address a couple other things like put in the windshield (!) then it goes back up and I drive while he tunes.
In the meantime, it is drivable so I expect to take it out this weekend and start to get to know a bit more about what I've created. Should be "interesting". Getting closer every day...
First drive after ITB sync, linkage adjust and new tune being loaded. It's the tuner driving - I wasn't there. And yes, he apologized for the less than stellar video. The rattle you hear is the shifter. The car has no tunnel cover, carpets, or glass so it's quite noisy.
All the adjustments and tuning prior to this drive video was done with the car sitting still, before any of the critical "tune while driving" work, so still a ways to go.
The tuner is recommending I get the car home and take care of a couple things we now know need addressing. In particular, the throttle tip in is too abrupt, which has been a concern since it first fired up, as you all know. I have some ideas about how to improve it, now that we know for sure it needs help.
So, I'm heading up to tomorrow to retrieve it, redesign the throttle linkage and address a couple other things like put in the windshield (!) then it goes back up and I drive while he tunes.
In the meantime, it is drivable so I expect to take it out this weekend and start to get to know a bit more about what I've created. Should be "interesting". Getting closer every day...
I really like the cleclo pins holding the dash together Dont you love a good time crunch
Andyrew
Sep 24 2020, 01:28 PM
Chris,
I'd be happy to supply a Gopro and windshield mount for future "Test Drives"
Love the sound of that engine!
tygaboy
Sep 26 2020, 09:56 AM
After time with the tuner, most stuff has been fixed but he was struggling with a consistent "hanging idle". Something's up where the butterflies don't/won't return to fully closed and it ends up with a 1500+ RPM idle. A blip of the throttle lowers vacuum and the idle settles in where it's supposed to be. So it could be that there's an issue with one or more of the return springs. The tuner was in touch with the Borla engineer and there's agreement that something may have happened when the ITBs were messed with to remove the return springs. Anyway, I drove about 10 miles yesterday and this issue makes it "not fun" to drive. The tuner gave me a couple homework assignments and I'm trying to take care of them today. But I suspect the throttle bodies will be making a trip back to Borla to be inspected/reset.
I don't fault the tuner or Borla. Sometimes we are presented with situations that aren't what we hoped. While I certainly find this frustrating, I'm choosing to view it as a learning experience. I will come out of it with a far better understanding of this tech and my car.
Now, on a totally different note, here's the Pantera I mentioned earlier, along with an Aston Martin V12. What's that partially completed induction system on the V12 you ask? Oh, just a one-off stack system that the tuner designed and had fabricated from scratch.
And there's my ratty little 914, staring longingly at the tech-porn and eye candy it spent a few days with.
horizontally-opposed
Sep 26 2020, 10:18 AM
Panteras have always had an engine bay for the ages, but that one contains art full stop. Wow.
Superhawk996
Sep 26 2020, 10:42 AM
QUOTE(tygaboy @ Sep 26 2020, 11:56 AM)
Now, on a totally different note, here's the Pantera I mentioned earlier . . .
I often say that I'm practicing my rust repair skills for a Pantera next. They rust as bad as teeners!
A Pantera is 2nd favorite ride after a 914 and my 1st favorite water pumper.
The new mid-engine Vette will put a Pantera to shame w.r.t. performance, but, I suspect the new Vette styling won't hold up over the ages like the Pantera has. Plus you can see the whole engine and trans on the Pantera. Not so much on a new Vette.
Good to see your 914 coming along and driving! Keep at it! It's looking great!
djway
Sep 26 2020, 11:58 PM
It was not long after my drive in the Pantera that the article came out with the V8 in a 914. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm? My second favorite after the Countach.
tygaboy
Sep 28 2020, 02:01 PM
The throttle bodies are headed back to Borla. They said it should be a quick turnaround so I may, may, may be able to have the car running for WCR. Fingers crossed!
In any case, since I can't mess with things that require the car runs/drives, I have some unexpected free time... And you know what they say about "idle hands being the Devil's workshop". Time for some more style points.
So. Just because I can't afford a 935 doesn't mean I can't steal some of its design ques!
This is V1 and only part way done. I'm still noodling on the length of the extension and # of supports. 4 looks OK but maybe 5 to echo the look of the Ronal wheels? Or go with 8, like the 935?
I think I like 4 or 5. Regardless, I think it looks far better than "plain".
djway
Sep 28 2020, 02:40 PM
Suddenly I'm thinking "Bond, James Bond"
I would say 5. 8 may start being restrictive.
Andyrew
Sep 28 2020, 08:30 PM
I'd like to see 5 myself. Al's what about making the tips bigger?
Too bad you sent back the throttle bodies, I'd love to know if it made a sound difference.
tygaboy
Sep 28 2020, 09:56 PM
QUOTE(Andyrew @ Sep 28 2020, 07:30 PM)
I'd like to see 5 myself. Al's what about making the tips bigger?
Too bad you sent back the throttle bodies, I'd love to know if it made a sound difference.
@Andyrew - This whole throttle body debacle happened because the first tuner disconnected 4 of the 8 return springs. I reconnected the springs but (as I realized only after I removed the throttle bodies and could see things from underneath) the disconnected springs "unwound" one full turn so when I reconnected them, they weren't wound enough to overcome the significant vacuum the LS3 generates at idle.
I suspect that if I gave them another wind, this probably would have fixed everything. But at this point, I'm not going to screw around with "probablies". So back they go to get the factory seal of approval.
And on the exhaust, I'll mock up the other one with 5 supports as I, too, suspect I'll prefer that, what with nature abhorring even numbers and all that.
Retroracer
Sep 28 2020, 10:00 PM
Chris - the cookie-cutter tips were used on earlier cars than the 935 too, like the 906 and (pictured here) the 910:
Dig the cutters, and particularly the five- or six-blade idea, but the baddest 914 muffler of all—in both aesthetics and noises—remains the one used to win Le Mans. A lot of the aftermarket sport mufflers out there (including the Dansk 57mm on my car) are close but no cigar when it comes to the detailing...
tygaboy
Oct 12 2020, 06:02 PM
I worked out a little fixture for the exhaust inserts that makes it easy to accurately locate the 5 vanes.
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