Now, I use my car as a daily deutschebag and weekend autocrosser. Right now my front and rear end feel kind of soft and squishy. My car still has the OE bushings (cheap rubber) from 1975. I've felt the ride of a 911 SC with Weltmeister bushings and it wasn't bad, and also a 911 SC with the poly-bronze bushings from Elephant Foot Racing and that was just like riding in a new 993. BUT I've yet to feel how the ride in a car with Mueller bearings or Neoprene bushings are. Cost wise the Weltmeister bushings or Mueller Bearings seem best, but I'm more concerned with the ride of the car.

For those using different flavors of bushings, what do you reccommend?

New rubber doesn't exist.

I need to know this too. I found my burning tire problem... extra camber causing rubbing on the inside.

Leaning towards GPR's poly bushings for low cost (me poor student), according to Dave they don't squeak like the Welts.

If you got the money, the rollers are the best way to go. The next in line would be the Elephant racing and last on the list would be the Weltmeister. The new rubber ones are not available anymore from what I have been told.

We don't have a lot of posts on this board about replacing bushings. Go do a search on the Pelican 911 board and read about the woes people have encountered with aftermarket poly bushings.

Here's two for starters:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showthread....threadid=219840

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showthread....threadid=186891


Here's the rundown of your list (IMO of course):

stock bushings - not really available. They are vulcanized on to the control arm. As far as I know the only way to get stock rubber bushings is to buy new control arms (not sure if 914 ones are even available) or send your control arms to Smart Racing (for $400 they will vulcanize new rubber on to your control arms).


Here is a good link on how rubber works and how poly bushings work:

http://www.elephantracing.com/techtopic/po...anefriction.htm


poly graphite - here's the rub with poly graphite: they will bind because of imprecise fit unless properly installed. There is a variation in the diameter of the control arms and the poly bushings are not an exact fit. The "correct" way to fit them is to lathe them so that they fit your control arms. In short order the grease will squeeze out and they will squeek. IMO, they are a horrible solution. I'd rather stick with 30 year old stock bushings.


Elephant racing / Mueller Bearings - I won't debate the pros and cons of these two sytems because in essence they function in a similar fashion. They both install a bearing surface on to the imprecisely sized control arm and then ride a bearing on top of that. IMO, these are the two best solutions out there. If you are a cheapskate, you might be able to make poly bushings work for you with a lot of work. IMO, the risk of them not working is too great. For the $240 price of the Elephant bushings I'd rather not risk the squeeks, the binding, tearing your control arm mount, or the price of additional alignments if you have to R&R poly bushings.


BTW, I've never heard of neoprene bushings. Do you have a link?

Wow, Elephant Racing's article was pretty informative. Looks like I'll save up the $500 or so and get their stuff. I got a buddy who has the lube gun and right lube for them.

youve been in my car ... welts frotn and rear....

i believe my camber issue is related to one of the rear bushings

I've tried all 3, currently using the Elephant Racing bushings up front and poly's in back (Elephant didn't have a trailing arm solution at the time).

Note that many trailing arm tubes are slightly ovalled inside (they came that way from the factory, probably welding distortion), the original rubber bushings had enough compliance to compensate. However, unless you have the inside reamed, you may have (ahem) insertion problems with any solution that does not have a compliant outer layer to adjust to the ovalling.

at this point i have the elephant package on the front. i'm very, very pleased with the results. straight forward installation. great customer support. what may seem exspensive upfront is cheaper when you only have to do it once. time and funds permitting, i plan on doing the rear control arms as well.

k

Does anybody figure that there are other plastics that are suitable for bushings?

There are some other plastics that seem to be better suited for bushings, if you discount the noise aspect, such as Hydlar ZF (Nylon / Kevlar) and Acetal/Delrin.

I think urethane is used because it is cheap, available and easily injection molded and have vibration damping characteristics.

i was under the impression that mueller bearings are nla... can anyone (anyone=mike) verify this?

Mike's not making them anymore, but there may be some on the shelf someplace at a retailer. Mike himself has recommended going with the Elephant parts. I've met Mr. Elephant himself, and he seems a good sort. If I ever start working on my 914 again, I'll probably go with a set of those.

QUOTE (nebreitling @ May 16 2005, 11:50 AM)

i was under the impression that mueller bearings are nla... can anyone (anyone=mike) verify this?

just taking a short hiatus while I build up my funding to buy more parts....I have fronts in stock...Tarret has front and rear in stock.

QUOTE

Wow, Elephant Racing's article was pretty informative

....yea, if you like exaggeration and drawn "examples" blown totally out of proportion, I'd like to see the "facts" and not read the theory.....for the front, the needle bearings are designed to support at a minimum, 8000 pounds static (each, now times that by 4 on the front), the races are specially heat-treated material held to within 1.5000" +0, minus .0005".

Think those ER bushings (they are not bearings, they are bushings) are held to those tolerances? I think not. As to his claim of the ER bushing having "full contact", no way, no how, there will always be points of tangency with when you have a smaller diameter housed in a larger diameter feature, the only way to prevent this would to have a press-fit, which obviously will not rotate very well.

Ever hear of people complaining about the throttle bushings on their carbs/throttle bodies??? That happens from being cycled back and forth, just like the suspension in use, however, the suspension will have much more weight bearing down on them. Yes, the bushings are lubed, but in no way can you count on the "figure 8" feature , once the grease is wiped away, you will have metal to metal contact, now if his bushings are pressurized like the bearings in a engine, that would be a different story.

As to misalignment "binding"...well, I've never had a complaint about it, yet I've seen posts about the ER having issues....if your car is tweaked that bad, fix the problem correctly.

Obviously the ER parts work, so do needle bearings, I don't feel the need to go on smear campaign and make up some "White papers"..I've heard rumors of people "saying" they have had problems with the needle bearings...I have had one pair returned, uninstalled, the buyer didn't feel comfortable using them after talking to an engineering buddy of his...no problem, full refund, no hard feelings....as to these "people" having problems with the needle bearings?? Where are they, why have they not called or e-mailed me to complain about it?? Do they really exist???

just remember, both items will/can wear out in time, one advantage of the needle bearings is that when/if the bearings wears out, it can be replaced for less than $10 each (the major cost of the front bearings is the specially heat treated sleeve)

the biggest disadvantage to the needle bearings are cost and perceived exposure to the elements....the way I look at it, I want people to use the needle bearings cause they either want to or understand why to use them, if you don't fall into that category, then the Elephant bushings are for you...and I'm fine with that

Yes, I do know Chuck and we do talk when we see each other, for him, the Porsche stuff is his full time job and lively hood, so he has to work on it harder than I do...my hats off to him to succeeding in the market.

My Delrin bushing service wasn't included in the poll.

I have been offering a rear bushing installation for several years. My process assures a perfect fit. The cost is less than for needle bearing kits including shipping your trailing arms, and I think the performance/quality is comparable if not better.
Very soon (a month or so) I will be offering something for the front suspension as well.
I will stock powder coated brackets with bushings installed and reamed for a perfect fit on your A-arms. When you return your old brackets the core charge will be rebated. You won't have to ship the heavy pieces for this setup so the cost will be even more economical than for the rears.

opps...how did he forget Chris???

man, oh man...maybe I will just close up "shop", LOL

Chris, do you use regular Delrin or Delrin AF??
(don't worry, I'm not going to copy or write a "white paper", hahaha)

QUOTE (Mueller @ May 16 2005, 01:17 PM)

the biggest disadvantage to the needle bearings are cost and perceived exposure to the elements....the way I look at it, I want people to use the needle bearings cause they either want to or understand why to use them, if you don't fall into that category, then the Elephant bushings are for you...and I'm fine with that

Perception IS reality in marketing, Mike...

I think if you designed up some rubber seals for the ends so people didn't have to goop them up with silicone or the like, your perceived (and therefore real ) level of quality would improve considerably. The quality/price tradeoff is hard to make when you simply can't understand or see the quality difference between geniunely precision made parts and lesser bits. It's easy to make when someone has to messily apply goop all over the ends. The quality is "obviously" low relative to something that looks decent when installed. So many would perceive, anyway, true or not.

Qarl used large shrink tubing on the ends of his needle bearing install and they looked very nice to me. It was his simple solution for the finishing touches and better appearance.

So what is the likelyhood of getting needle bearings of a 'lesser' quality that I can afford?
I don't need no super duper steel that will outlast the cars lifespan.

QUOTE (Mueller @ May 16 2005, 06:12 PM)

Chris, do you use regular Delrin or Delrin AF??

Standard black Delrin. It is already expensive enough, don't need to add to the cost.
I'm trying UHMW polyethylene for the front bushings. It is slipperier than Delrin and should have plenty of strength for the front end, which sees much smaller loads on the bushings than the rear.
BTW, I'm not worried about people stealing my ideas. Besides, if they do that means it was a good idea.

QUOTE (Chris914n6 @ May 16 2005, 06:47 PM)

I don't need no super duper steel that will outlast the cars lifespan.

that's what they thought about the original rubber stuff; the cars weren't supposed to be on the road this long !

Lots of good inputs floating around. I think one might ask what your goal is first. I would lobby that a daily driver requires nothing more that a substitute to the original vulcanized rubber bushings. From there, as you step up to the next couple of driving levels or applications, a stiffer bushing would be required for increased control (or less diflection in the bushing). To simply say X is better than Y, leaves out a lot. Determine first your goal, then buy what is best suited....IMO.

Andy

as always, buy the best you can afford

Bernie

QUOTE (Racer Chris @ May 16 2005, 02:06 PM)

I have been offering a rear bushing installation for several years. My process assures a perfect fit. The cost is less than for needle bearing kits including shipping your trailing arms, and I think the performance/quality is comparable if not better.

Chris, I have seen your site and your work looks great. From a performance standpoint I understand what you are saying, are the delrins noisy?

QUOTE (Travis Neff @ May 17 2005, 02:26 PM)

are the delrins noisy?

I don't have any significant experience with this in a street car, but I can say for sure that they don't squeek at all. It is typical for the Weltmeister bushings to squeek no matter how much effort is put into prepping them.
As far as harshness/road noise I doubt mine are any worse than the needle bearings which are reported to be good in this regard.

Thanks for clarifying that - I did mean squeaky.

I imagine road noise will be road noise on anything but the rubber bushings - which will be the same, but less...

Chris,

I have a question. What is the reason for the grease fitting on the control arm? Do you want the control arm to slide on the bushing O.D.? I figured the bushing should fit snug in the control arm and only rotate about the shaft. From a wear standpoint the ground surface of the shaft inside the bushing would be the best place for rotation to occur. This debate may have already been covered but I'm interested in your answer.

Thanks,

T.G.

QUOTE (Chris914n6 @ May 16 2005, 05:47 PM)

So what is the likelyhood of getting needle bearings of a 'lesser' quality that I can afford? I don't need no super duper steel that will outlast the cars lifespan.

isn't there a bushing for street drivers? or is the 30-year old rubber our only choices...

QUOTE (tat2dphreak @ May 17 2005, 06:50 PM)

isn't there a bushing for street drivers? or is the 30-year old rubber our only choices...

Well, I think most people are focused on the performance due more to what's available rather than what's an adequate replacement. It's not to say that those offerings aren't perhaps an improvement, but nevertheless they aren't the same as a stock replacement. Since the stock replacement is the whole trailing arm with bushings vulcanized in place, it is a rather expensive solution. Hence, we have the present offerings with a performance slant. I'll stand corrected, but I think Weltmeister catalogs a softer bushing as well. The polygraphite one is a 70D durometer. I checked with Energy Suspension Systems. Their PU bushings are 95A durometer (softer) which is harder than the stock rubber, and is commonly used as an upgrade for other-than-Porsche vehicles.

I have experienced the difference in ride quality with a Corvette when replacing the stock rubber with Delrin. In that particular instance, there is no way I would tolerate the resultant ride quality for a daily street driver. It was terribly harsh, and made the car feel real clunky. Every little crease in the road was translated to the chassis. FWIW.

Andy

QUOTE (TGM @ May 17 2005, 10:36 PM)

What is the reason for the grease fitting on the control arm?

The grease goes through the bushing to grooves in the inner surface where it is spread onto the pivot shaft. You are correct that the bushing should move around the shaft and not in the control arm.
Actually, the fit of my parts is so good that grease doesn't significantly lower friction. It does help prevent moisture from causing the shaft to rust though.

QUOTE (andys @ May 17 2005, 11:36 PM)

I have experienced the difference in ride quality with a Corvette when replacing the stock rubber with Delrin. In that particular instance, there is no way I would tolerate the resultant ride quality for a daily street driver. It was terribly harsh, and made the car feel real clunky. Every little crease in the road was translated to the chassis. FWIW.

I think that the pivot bushings in our cars have only a little to do with transmitting road feel to the driver. If you changed out the top strut rubbers for solid material you would definitely experience a harsh ride.

QUOTE (tat2dphreak @ May 17 2005, 10:50 PM)

isn't there a bushing for street drivers? or is the 30-year old rubber our only choices...

Dwight Mitchell's NeaTrix bushings for the 911 were excellent street replacement products, but a 911 spring plate is not a 914 trailing arm.

Dwight knows 914's - it was his 2,0 that won the Manhattan Trophy (Best In Show) at a Parade a long time ago.

the materials exist, but the decision to build the trailing arms with molded in place rubber means it's virtually impossible to use the best materials for what you'd want. the same situation exists with the front A-Arms.

to use the material you want, you need an expensive mass-production manufacturing technology. since we need a field-replaceable method, we have to use materials that are suitable.

My rubber bushings just slid out when I pressed out the shaft. Only a bit of residue from where it was 'bonded' to the pieces, but I can't say it really looked like it was bonded, at least not completely.
The broken one had worked its way inward, thus the camber offset.
My wallet says poly - so I'll have to report on the GPR bushings when they come in. The out-of-round on the shaft and housing were not to bad, but a polishing isn't out of the picture.

So here's what you need to do in order to install poly graphite a-arm bushings correctly.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showthread....threadid=222777

QUOTE (Mueller @ May 16 2005, 01:17 PM)

[/QUOTE] just taking a short hiatus while I build up my funding to buy more parts....I have fronts in stock...Tarret has front and rear in stock. [QUOTE]

Wanted to purchase the complete set form Mueller but it seem he no longer has it. Who is Tarret and how can I get in touch with him. Would like to purchase both front and rear suspension bearing set.

Regards,

Turbo Paul.

QUOTE (turbo914v8 @ Jun 2 2005, 08:03 AM)

QUOTE (Mueller @ May 16 2005, 01:17 PM) just taking a short hiatus while I build up my funding to buy more parts....I have fronts in stock...Tarret has front and rear in stock. QUOTE Wanted to purchase the complete set form Mueller but it seem he no longer has it. Who is Tarret and how can I get in touch with him. Would like to purchase both front and rear suspension bearing set. Regards, Turbo Paul.

Who Tarret is


Andrew

Thanks

the neoprene washer is pretty slick in that pelican thread. those little correct foam seals are kinda pricey for what you get .

k