Bee Jay
Apr 25 2005, 04:54 PM
I didn't make the WCC because of this sound coming from the engine compartment. It didn't get louder when we plugged the tailpipe. I ran a compression check this weekend. Cylinders 1,2 & 3 were 100lbs +- 5%, but number four was only 50lbs. OK, the head is either cracked or the head to piston seal is gone. There are only 4K miles on the engine since Wayne Dempsey, Tom Gould and I built it in 2000. There was a lot of debate at the time on whether or not to include the copper "head gasket" and the popular advice was to leave it out. Am I to regret that decision? My 3.0 motor isn't ready, I haven't even started tearing it down yet, so I guess I need to drop this 2.0 liter, and repair the head leak, if I want to drive it this summer.
Bee Jay
My car:
http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?p...2754&uid=598455
Allan
Apr 25 2005, 04:58 PM
I remember hearing it at Crusty's place. Everybody seemed to have a different opinion as to what it sounded like. I never said anything but it does sound like a head leak. I left the head gaskets out of mine and so far so good.
Oh by the way, way bitchin car!!!
r_towle
Apr 25 2005, 05:15 PM
if its head to cylinder, then you need to make sure those surfaces are lapped correctly prior to final assembly...otherwise it will happen again.
the machining is very important that the cylinder to head and cylinder to case connections.
These must be square and flat...then lapped.
Good luck
No gaskets if done correctly.
Rich
Cap'n Krusty
Apr 25 2005, 05:33 PM
If your machinist does the job right, why would you want to introduce the random uneveness of lapping the heads? He uses years of experience, and a real expensive and real precise vertical milling machine. Costs and weighs more than your car. You use your hands, tools not known for their precision, nor the repeatability of the results. As for leaving out the head gaskets on an engine designed to use them, I fail to see the benefits. Porsche decided to leave them out of the 964 motors, BY DESIGN, and it has been a nightmare for both them and the car owners. VW took them out of their 2 litre heads, but they also lowered the compression, redesigned the heads, and added an EGR system in an attempt to keep the combustion temps down. Didn't work, BTW. The Cap'n
Dave_Darling
Apr 25 2005, 08:09 PM
VW also told their mechanics to leave them out of every Type IV engine that came in and had the heads off...
--DD
ArtechnikA
Apr 25 2005, 08:21 PM
QUOTE (Dave_Darling @ Apr 25 2005, 09:09 PM) |
VW also told their mechanics to leave them out of every Type IV engine that came in and had the heads off... |
yes they did; i've seen the service bulletin.
it also says to use a shim of comparable thickness under the cylinder to restore the deck height...
Bee Jay
Apr 28 2005, 03:26 PM
Well, I tried without gaskets and look what happened. So I think I'll give gaskets a try. Cracked head or bent valve is a possibility also. I won't have time to drop the engine for a couple of weeks.
Bee Jay
Cap'n Krusty
Apr 28 2005, 04:46 PM
QUOTE (Dave_Darling @ Apr 25 2005, 06:09 PM) |
VW also told their mechanics to leave them out of every Type IV engine that came in and had the heads off...
--DD |
Not in the manual, and I haven't seen a TSB to that effect. Might be one, mind you, but I've never seen it, and the guys who do my headwork never heard of it either .................... The Cap'n
davep
Apr 29 2005, 11:30 AM
Could someone post the SB please.
MarkV
Apr 29 2005, 02:33 PM
Here is the link to the service bulletin:
http://www.dolphinsci.com/techbull.html
ArtechnikA
Apr 29 2005, 02:58 PM
okay - *this* time i have it bookmarked so i have a chance of finding it the next time the question comes up.
this is also the "oil squirter connecting rod mod" TSB...
Bee Jay
Jul 18 2005, 10:52 PM
I got the head off. Here is a pic of the head. Surprise, I did put the gaskets in. The one on the right failed. Now I have a burn hole in the head. I hope it can be repaired with welding. I guess I will try without gaskets next.
Bee Jay
http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?p...2754&uid=598455
redshift
Jul 18 2005, 10:58 PM
Sorry man... NICE CAR!
Damnit.
Miles
echocanyons
Jul 18 2005, 11:04 PM
So since you have the heads off was there piston clearance issues?
The valves look pretty clean
scotty914
Jul 18 2005, 11:04 PM
suburize it
Joe Ricard
Jul 18 2005, 11:49 PM
So I was playing with this stuff called "alumalloy" (sp)
Anyway it is a method of technically speaking soldering aluminum. It is not welding but once the stuff is heated and bonded you can't re-melt it with the propane torch used to get liquid the 1st time.
Some sort of Mechanical process to make the Alumalloy rod once it is heated the two parts alloy and are pretty tough.
Generally accepted method is welding. But you better find somebody that welds aluminum everyday. Get the head too hot and you will have a pile of junk.
Dead Air
Jul 19 2005, 12:05 AM
Great car!!
We can't seem to let this head gasket thing go, can we?
rhodyguy
Jul 19 2005, 07:40 AM
mr b.e. jones i take it? i still have your card.
k
aircooledboy
Jul 19 2005, 08:36 AM
As the Cap'n has pointed out over and over, that SB does not appear to apply to our engines (unless you are running a bus engine that was remanufactured and modified after May 31, 1990).
QUOTE |
Subject: VWC Remanufactured 2.0l Air-Cooled Engine Group: 10
Number: 10-90 T01
Models(s): Type II/Vanagon 1975 - 83 MY Date: May 31, 1990
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Engines, P/N 071 100 031AX, 039 100 031 B/C/DX, have been modified to improve heat transfer an increase durability. These changes effect Engine codes: GD, GE, CV.
The following improvements have been introduced as of remanufactured Engine number 89000.
|
tat2dphreak
Jul 19 2005, 09:25 AM
man, that car is way cool man! I dig the little touches, like the S2000 button... cool!
DBCooper
Jul 19 2005, 09:46 AM
QUOTE (aircooledboy @ Jul 19 2005, 06:36 AM) |
Engines, P/N 071 100 031AX, 039 100 031 B/C/DX, have been modified to improve heat transfer an increase durability. These changes effect Engine codes: GD, GE, CV.
The following improvements have been introduced as of remanufactured Engine number 89000.
|
I think you're reading that wrong. It says that VW's own reman engines were changed as of that date. I'd say if VW found that change to improvge VW's engines being rebuilt to be put into VW cars and busses then it's probably equally effective on VW's engines being rebuilt to be put into Porsche cars.
As for lapping the cylinders I can say from experience that it pretty much eliminates sealing problems in VW engines in VW cars. If you look at machined aluminum under a microscope you'll see that there's no such thing as a "perfect" machined surface. There are always imperfections, high and low. Lapping doesn't remove any metal to speak of, little or none on the tops of the steel liners and not enough to change any angles in the mating surfaces, it just takes off the sharp tops of the ridges and microscopic galling in the aluminum. It's still not perfect, but it's a better mating surface than the raw machined surfaces.
Cap'n Krusty
Jul 19 2005, 10:18 AM
QUOTE (r_towle @ Apr 25 2005, 03:15 PM) |
if its head to cylinder, then you need to make sure those surfaces are lapped correctly prior to final assembly...otherwise it will happen again.
the machining is very important that the cylinder to head and cylinder to case connections.
These must be square and flat...then lapped.
Good luck
No gaskets if done correctly.
Rich |
If they're "square and flat", WHY would you EVER introduce potential deviation by lapping them in? WHY is this a "must"? If your machine shop were as good as the one I use, you wouldn't need to do ANYTHING to the heads except wipe 'em off before installation. And what is "lapped correctly"? The Cap'n, irritated that this myth never goes away!
redshift
Jul 19 2005, 01:16 PM
Forgive them Cap'n, they are laplanders.
M
aircooledboy
Jul 19 2005, 01:20 PM
QUOTE (Paul Illick @ Jul 19 2005, 10:46 AM) |
I think you're reading that wrong. It says that VW's own reman engines were changed as of that date. I'd say if VW found that change to improvge VW's engines being rebuilt to be put into VW cars and busses then it's probably equally effective on VW's engines being rebuilt to be put into Porsche cars.
|
That is possible. I guess the question is whether they made changes to the engine and/or head to allow for the omission of the head gasket. If they reduced the compression in the reman engines, but the stock engines were not reduced, that is a pretty big deal.
In my line of work the assumption is that if an idea that could have easily been spelled out wasn't, then that idea was not intended to be conveyed. That SB doesn't say "leave the gasket out in all future engines if you take the heads off". I understand that the world doesn't always follow that logic, but if you are sending out SBs that are intended to educate your service departments. . .
I don't know the answer to this question. I am going to build a 2.0 soon though. I find it interesting though that this idea gets debated alot, and you often hear about an SB that says "leave the gasket out from now on" (and not just you DD), but every time an actual SB is cited or posted, it is this one, and it doesn't say that.
type11969
Jul 19 2005, 02:02 PM
I know that at least Jake and I'm pretty sure other t4 builders out there do not use the gaskets, they lap the heads to the cylinders, and they don't have longevity issues.
You can take what you want from that. I left the gaskets out of my 1.8, set the CR, lapped the heads, and haven't had any issues with leaking. And the CR is higher than stock. Just my experience.
Bee Jay
Jul 19 2005, 02:21 PM
I didn't mean to start the gasket vs no gasket arguement again. All I know is that we used the gasket, and it failed. I don't plan on putting them in again. Now I will have gaskets on one side, and no gaskets on the other. I hope a gasket on the other side doesn't fail later.
The Cap'n has agreed to rescue my head. He also told me a neat trick to get my head off without removing the oil cooler. I guess Crusty has some 'sperience.
Bee Jay
PS I still hope to make Ventura in Sept.
Kargeek
Jul 19 2005, 04:10 PM
Nice Car! I too like the starter button and I like the sub in the passenger foot well. I love to see innovation and quality craftsmanship! The sub looks like something I installed in my daughter's Ford Explorer- it is used in the rear storage area. DH
DBCooper
Jul 19 2005, 05:32 PM
QUOTE (Cap'n Krusty @ Jul 19 2005, 08:18 AM) |
If they're "square and flat", WHY would you EVER introduce potential deviation by lapping them in? |
Yeah, I've been through this discussion before too. Your sentence started with an "if". And IF they were perfectly flat and square you're right, pure truth, you wouldn't need to. But check the next machined aluminum surface you get back from your machinist under a microscope. Tool used a bit too long, just a tad dull somewhere, running a bit fast, a bit slower, maybe got a bit hotter on the last head? If it's not this time it will be some time. And even if the tool is perfect aluminum isn't that mallable. Looking through a microscope I think you'll see that his "perfect" work is not really perfect, not absolutely flat. But five minutes of lapping makes the aluminum heads a mate for the (mass produced and almost certainly you can see it with your bare eyes not perfectly flat) steel cylinders. You're not introducing a deviation, they weren't perfect to begin with so you're mating the two. Look at them through the microscope again after they've been lapped, you'll see. And I lap valves, too!
And I'd also observe that if the engine manufacturer thinks enough of it to send out a service bulletin advising everyone to change their procedures it's probably because there's good reason. Manufacturer's don't much like admitting in public that they did a boo boo.
Bee Jay
Jul 19 2005, 11:05 PM
I gave head to the Cap'n!!!. Now I know why they call him crusty :-).
Anyways, he boxed the head up to ship to EMS. It is repairable. If VW put out a bulletin about these head gaskets, there must have been a problem. This gasket let go with less than 2,000 miles on the rebuild. Now I'm a believer, no gasket. This was not in the budget. I'm gonna run out of time and money before the 9/11 meet in Ventura.
Bee Jay
markb
Jul 20 2005, 12:20 AM
I dropped the head off at the UPS store this afternoon. It should get there tomorrow. The Cap'n was working on your trans when I left the shop. It would be nice if you had the car at GAF.
Bee Jay
Aug 4 2005, 12:17 AM
rhodyguy
Aug 4 2005, 10:08 AM
wow!! all new valve hardware? stock sized valves? i have to ask... if you don't mind, what did the bill run per head? no to include shipping. please pm me if the numbers are top secret.
k
Allan
Aug 4 2005, 10:11 AM
Purdy.
ArtechnikA
Aug 4 2005, 10:29 AM
QUOTE (Bee Jay @ Jul 20 2005, 01:05 AM) |
I gave head to the Cap'n!!!. |
that just doesn't sound right ...
Bee Jay
Aug 7 2005, 11:49 PM
The Cap'n and EMS examined my head carefully and determined that my intake manifold gasket was leaking, running #4 lean, and prolly caused my head gasket failure. It's also prolly why the car started backfiring a while back. The only intake manifold gasket available for the 2.0 is this hard phenolic thing. Should I install it with gasket sealer or silicone? Do I peel the paper off on both sides, or leave it on? What torque setting should I use on the intake manifold bolts.
The Cap'n says to put the head sealing gasket back in. Since I trust him, it goes in.
Bee Jay
Bee Jay
Aug 8 2005, 05:30 PM
Bump!
Hey guys, I gotta know. How do I seal this intake manifold gasket?
Bee Jay
scruz914
Aug 8 2005, 06:21 PM
As far as I know you don't put any sealing compound on the manifold gaskets. Leave the paper on both sides of the plastic (phenoilc?). Torque should be around 14 lbs.
-Jeff
Bee Jay
Sep 3 2005, 03:46 PM
I'm just about ready to lower this car, add oil, and start it. Head rebuilt, tranny rebuilt, new seats in.......
One last thing to do before lowering. My dumb butt took the oil temp plate out. I'm ready to put it back in, and the rubbler oil ring gasket is wayyyyyy to big. It has stretched. It's Saturday, a three day weekend. I wanted to start the car today. Where can I find this rubber gasket? Is it unique to Type IVs, or is it a common VW part. If so, I can catch NAPA before closing. If not, I guess I spend the rest of the weekend doing yardwork and honey do's. The Cap'n is not in, I called. Dang, the weather is perfect for Porsche test driving.
Bee Jay
Allan
Sep 3 2005, 03:53 PM
I'd say take the cover and seal to NAPA and see if they can match it up...
Cap'n Krusty
Sep 3 2005, 03:55 PM
QUOTE (Bee Jay @ Sep 3 2005, 01:46 PM) |
I'm just about ready to lower this car, add oil, and start it. Head rebuilt, tranny rebuilt, new seats in....... One last thing to do before lowering. My dumb butt took the oil temp plate out. I'm ready to put it back in, and the rubbler oil ring gasket is wayyyyyy to big. It has stretched. It's Saturday, a three day weekend. I wanted to start the car today. Where can I find this rubber gasket? Is it unique to Type IVs, or is it a common VW part. If so, I can catch NAPA before closing. If not, I guess I spend the rest of the weekend doing yardwork and honey do's. The Cap'n is not in, I called. Dang, the weather is perfect for Porsche test driving. Bee Jay |
Call me! Come and get it. In fact, come and get 2 or 3 of em! 925 1993
The Cap'n
Bee Jay
Sep 5 2005, 11:03 AM
Thanks for the O Ring Cap'n.
Now I got a major problem. I hooked everything up, and cranked the engine without sparkplugs, to get oil pressure. I heard a pop, and lots of acrid smoke. I opened the garage door, took a deep breath, and ran back in to disconnect the battery. When the smoke cleared, I looked under the car. The hot wire to the brand new alternator was totally melted, taking the wire harness from the alternator to the starter and fuse box with it. WTF? Could the new alternator be bad? I guess I'm lucky I got the battery disconnedted before the car burned down, I could hear the fuel pump working perfectly. But I am very frusterated right now. I gotta walk away from this car right now. I really wanted to drive it to Ventura next week, and I thought I was just a spark plug install from starting it. But, prolly the alternator at least has to come out. I have to work the rest of this week. I am pretty upset right now, but I'm wondering what I did wrong. I put everything back the way I took it apart. It's a brand new Bosch alternator I got from Tom and Wayne last time I was in LA. Cap'n if you see this give me a call, please.
Bee Jay
MarkV
Sep 5 2005, 11:54 AM
There was a thread about rebuilt alternators with the wrong hot lug on the back of the alternator. The positive lug is too long and makes contact with the back cover of the alternator.
rhodyguy
Sep 5 2005, 11:56 AM
bernard, when you pull the alt, remove the rear cover and look for an arc point. there was a thread long ago regarding a stud on the rear of the alt making contact and the need for denting the rear of the cover out at the stud contact. i think one member cooked a few alts before figuring it out.
k
MarkV
Sep 5 2005, 12:16 PM
mk114
Sep 5 2005, 01:15 PM
I read the that Technical Bulletin and it says remove the two and make it one
Eliminate aluminum seal 021 101 341A between cylinder and cylinder head.
Eliminate paper gasket 021 101 341A between foot of cylinder and crankcase.
Install 1.6mm aluminum shim 071 101 341, with adhesive D 000 400 at foot of cylinder to compensate for removed paper gasket and aluminum seal. Illustration 1.
It sounds like your just removing the paper gasket and installing a thicker Gasket
Oh this is fo 2.0 type IV 75-83
Bee Jay
Sep 5 2005, 02:17 PM
I could have the long alternator hot bolt problem. That alternator wire was in good shape when I ran it back thru the tin. It didn't chaff thru while cranking. I have to remove the alternator and I need a new alt. wire harness. I'm gonna take the rest of the day and relax. I been floggin like crazy to get this car ready for next weekend. Maybe I can still make it, but I'm spending the rest of Labor Day with my wife.
Bee Jay
Bee Jay
Sep 5 2005, 10:50 PM
Oh my gosh! That's exactly what happened. The washer under the black wire, grounded to the cover. It looks like somebody took to it with an arc welder. Go to my picturetrail site and check it out. If someone can post the picture, I would appreciate it.
http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?p...2754&uid=598455The alternator on the top is the brand new Bosch unit. The bottom one is the old unit. You can see that there is a new black box with a wire coming out of it. That wire is connected to another post with a washer and screw. The washer contacted the cover. You can see on the cover picture, it dang near burned thru. The alternator harness is toast. A warning should come in every Bosch Alternator box about this.
Everyone in Hell prolly has to remove a 914 alternator, with the engine in the car, once a day. What a PITA. I bet it's a whole lot of fun putting it back in.
Bee Jay
MarkV
Sep 6 2005, 01:32 AM
I don't think it is a new alternator. It must be a rebuilt. I think Jeff Bowlsby sells a new alt. harness fairly cheap.
MarkV
Sep 6 2005, 01:33 AM
..
Bee Jay
Sep 6 2005, 05:04 PM
Alternator and harness on the way from PP. Maybe I'll still make it to Ventura Saturday in a 914 afterall.
Bee Jay
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