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Full Version: Paint code mystery - COA and paint tag don't match
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morsmanlaw
I just noticed this week that the COA and paint color of the car do not match the paint code found on the door jamb of my '75 2.0.

According to the COA (I have the jacket for the COA, so it's not a fake), the original color is "Scarlet (Mars) Red/H3." Although the car has been repainted, it's clear from parts that were not repainted, such as around the brake master cylinder and fuel tank, under the carpet, etc., that this is the original color of the car.

However, the paint tag on the front of the driver's door jamb gives the paint code as "L 20 C," which is Nepal Orange. There isn't a speck of Nepal Orange on the car.

The chassis number on the door jamb tag matches the number on the tag near the right headlight support in the front trunk, so it's incredibly unlikely that anyone has ever switched the paint code tag from another car. This car is in very good condition - no rust, and no signs of ever having any body work done. I have records back to the original owner, as well.

Any ideas on how the paint code tag can be wrong?
Gustl
it's more than likely that not the paint code tag is wrong, but the COA ...
1970 Neun vierzehn
....but, but if the COA matches what appears to be the original (traces) of paint color found in out-of-the-way areas of the chassis, wouldn't the door jamb tag be suspect? confused24.gif

Paul
Gustl
sorry ... that's correct ... it was early in the morning when I red the 1st post ...

I just checked both color codes:
L 20 C = Nepal orange
L 30 C = Malaga red

Maybe the guy hitting the numbers in the tag early morning ... not being awake biggrin.gif
gcrotvik
QUOTE(Gustl @ Dec 16 2016, 07:52 AM) *

sorry ... that's correct ... it was early in the morning when I red the 1st post ...

I just checked both color codes:
L 20 C = Nepal orange
L 30 C = Malaga red

Maybe the guy hitting the numbers in the tag early morning ... not being awake biggrin.gif


It's also possible the Karmann tag was stamped with a 2 instead of a 3 in error. The chassis number stamped on the Karmann tag should also match the chassis number stamped on the rear trunk floor, right lower side. If it does, then the tag is mostly likely original.
Tom_T
Unfortunately, with PCNA it is far more likely that they got the COA wrong, especially considering that AFAIK there never was a "Scarlet (Mars) Red/H3." choice for the 70-76 914s at all - as IIRC "Mars Red/H3" is a later paint name & code number on the COA.

Here are the actual paint names & codes for your `75, where you can click on the 914 outline/colors for examples of cars in each color:

http://www.p914.com/p914_paint_75.htm

The only way that the Karmann Plate could be wrong, would be a "Franken-car" where parts of 2 cars were put together - so double check for matching VINs stamped in the top of the right front fender top & on the right side headlight bucket plate inside the front trunk, at the plate on the left windshield pillar/A-frame post, & at the sticker on the driver rear doorjamb (sometimes also handwritten up on the dash underside); & that the Chassis number on the Karmann Plate & stamped in the rear trunk floor near the back - & see that they all match up. If so, then it's not a pieced car.

It's highly unlikely that someone swapped a plate intentionally or by accident, but still - anything is possible.

Next, look around for more places where the original paint could've been untouched - including all the hard to see nooks-n-crannies - such as in the fuel tank compartment under & behind/in front of the tank, water bottle, Brake MC, etc.; underbelly & engine compartment where other stuff covered it, etc. You may just find a trace of the Nepal somewhere.

It could still be Nepal behind the Karmann or front trunk/headlight bucket ID plates - if you want to try to peek behind one - & I'd suggest the latter, in order to preserve the Karmann Plate intact for pix noted below.

You could also take Acetoen on a Q-tip & try to slowly, carefully & gently see if you can expose any underlying paint at one of the punched dots in the VIN sticker on the L-doorjamb, since overspray might be there if the PO had it sprayed while maintaining the sticker in place.

BTW - dealers also did resprays on new cars in order to sell them, so they could've done a very good job of it, making it hard to find. Mine had 2 - from L80E Lt. Ivory - to Sahara Beige & then Gold (when I bought it 3 years old from the OO), which I uncovered the Sahara Beige more recently in my research & preps for my current in progress (slowly) resto.

However, a PO could also have done a complete strip & repaint to eliminate any traces of the Nepal.

If you don't find traces of tampering, franken-body, Karmann plate changed out, etc. - then I'd suggest that you take photos of all of the above noted plates, stampings & stickers & of the incorrect COA - then call PCNA's COA department to tell them of the problem, & ask them to correct their error at their cost & offer to send the Karmann Plate pic & any others as proof.

If they give you a hard time, then ask to take it up with the manager of the COA dept., & if that still fails - then take it to their current GM of Customer Care.

PCNA is actually legally obligated to correct any errors on their COAs under the original cost (even if you weren't the original buyer of it), but they may try to weasle their way out of it.

That was what happened to me when they insisted that my interior code #31 was black, when #11 is black & #31 is Beige (both with the basketweave seat inserts x2 is with corduroy FYI), until I took to the GM after I'd already sent the COA person who did it wrong, her supervisor & the COA Dept. Mgr.with a copy of an original dealer form with the proper codes (from Jeff Bowlsby's 914 website) - who had all refused to correct it after 3 erroneous tries over 9 months!

Then I contacted the Customer Care GM, who had it corrected and refunded my fee for all my time & trouble!

So this is also instructions to all you others out there with incorrect COAs which PCNA has so far refused to correct (thei means you too Pat Garvey, on your "Swedish Equipment" error).

Good Luck! beerchug.gif santa_smiley.gif
Tom
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Tom_T
Also, posting pix of the various numbers & paint color on here would be helpful. shades.gif

I disagree that - unless your red is darker than Scarlet to be the similar code numbered "L30C Malaga Red," that it's more unlikely that Hans or Fritz mis-stamped the plate numbers, since the redder "Scarlet Red" is L31M & would require that all 3 of the latter 3 of 4 color code numbers were in error. Not impossible, but highly unlikely IMHO.

So look at the Malaga Red 914 in that link I gave you above, to see if it's even close. type.gif

http://www.p914.com/p914_paint_L30C_75.htm

PS - Curt/Cabinetmaker on here is in Tulsa, & he can probably get with you on some of the detective work to find traces of Nepal. So shoot him a PM.

beerchug.gif santa_smiley.gif
Tom
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morsmanlaw
Mike Fugate, also here in Tulsa, has a '75 in Malaga Red, and it is definitely a different, noticeably darker red.

I should also mention that the inside of the rear trunk does not appear to have been painted, as it is a very slightly different shade than the exterior of the car. It is clearly Scarlet Red.

Here's mine:

Click to view attachment
sixaddict
Did Porsche do a "paint to sample" for 914s ?
Just sayin......

dry.gif
Tom_T
QUOTE(sixaddict @ Dec 17 2016, 03:21 AM) *

Did Porsche do a "paint to sample" for 914s ?
Just sayin......

dry.gif


Yes - good point - but that was either stamped & on COAs as 98 or 99, with 98 being to other Porsche colors, & 99 was Paint to [Customer] Sample (or visa versa, if I'm having a halfzymer moment! blink.gif ) - so neither his Karmann Plate or the COA says either customer ordered special color code 98/99.

beerchug.gif santa_smiley.gif
Tom
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Tom_T
QUOTE(morsmanlaw @ Dec 16 2016, 10:33 PM) *

Mike Fugate, also here in Tulsa, has a '75 in Malaga Red, and it is definitely a different, noticeably darker red.

I should also mention that the inside of the rear trunk does not appear to have been painted, as it is a very slightly different shade than the exterior of the car. It is clearly Scarlet Red.

Here's mine:

Click to view attachment


Ooooo nice! drooley.gif

So you know it's not Malaga, & so the mis-stamped L30C theory doesn't hold up - & as I said, the mis-stamping of all but 1 digit is highly unlikely, unless it was just a complete plate mix-up - also less than likely. idea.gif

As for the trunk paint being slightly different - & same for any area away from sunlight - that is not at all uncommon for colors prone to sun fading - & reds are notoriously the worst for sunfading, so that is to be expected, & good painters will use the trunks & other "hidden" interior areas to paint match for proper color repaints - rather than matching an already faded exterior (unless they're trying to match a spot repair on the outside to the then existing state of the color).

I go back to my other suggestions above, to check for consistent VINs & Chassis Nos. at all points, then to do some deeper research for untouched areas which might still have the L20C Nepal there, but not easily showing (add to that looking up under the dash - way up - to see if there is any Nepal over spray up there.

That said, if it was treated to a full bare metal rotisserie or other full strip & repaint resto at the time the red was painted, then you won't find any remnants anywhere in all probability.

However, that doesn't make the L20C on the Karmann Plate incorrect, so if you match all numbers & find or not find remnants of Nepal - then I would still suggest that you call PCNA's COA department & ask fro somebody experienced with 914s & older Porsches, then go thru it all with them, & ask them to look on the actual microfilmed Kardex for your car to see what it actually says on that original document while you're on the phone.

Then, depending on what they find, ask for the COA to be corrected to match either the Kardex &/or your Karmann Plate's L20C on the car, as appropriate. You'll want the COA on your car to match the Kardex &/or Karmann Plate - not what may appear to be the color everywhere on the car per your looking, for authenticity's sake.

I've given you the other info above, & IMHO I think that in all probability your car was originally painted per the L20C plate & then changed later - just my gut feel for what you've told us.

BTW - Curt has been trying to get the OK & surrounding states' 914ers together for a weekend Talimena 914 Run (Talihena OK to Mena AR & back), so get yourself & Mike (& other locals) with him to plan & run it. He's shown me some excellent pix of it from past years with dozens of beautiful 914s on a bridge. IIRC Sir Andy is in one or more of them. The pix alone are worth a group planning breakfast or lunch for you 914 folks in the Tulsey Town area.

BTW 2 - I get back to Tulsa/NE-OK/Sallisaw several times a year, & when I can, Curt & I usually get together for some BBQ or something, at which you & Mike are welcome to join us. Curt's 914 is also Scarlet IIRC, so the 3 red 914s will look great all lined up in the parking lot at whatever BBQ place we pick. I'm still due for another half-n-half chili cheese burger & fries at Ron's sometime soon! chowtime.gif

PS - I see the extra "bumperettes" on your rear bumper, so I suspect yours was originally a California car, since IIRC only CA required those on the 75-76 914s, along with the crapalytic converters - so check for some California Emissions Compliance stickers in the engine bay too.

beerchug.gif santa_smiley.gif
Tom
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morsmanlaw
QUOTE(Tom_T @ Dec 17 2016, 03:40 PM) *

QUOTE(morsmanlaw @ Dec 16 2016, 10:33 PM) *

Mike Fugate, also here in Tulsa, has a '75 in Malaga Red, and it is definitely a different, noticeably darker red.

I should also mention that the inside of the rear trunk does not appear to have been painted, as it is a very slightly different shade than the exterior of the car. It is clearly Scarlet Red.

Here's mine:

Click to view attachment


Ooooo nice! drooley.gif

So you know it's not Malaga, & so the mis-stamped L30C theory doesn't hold up - & as I said, the mis-stamping of all but 1 digit is highly unlikely, unless it was just a complete plate mix-up - also less than likely. idea.gif

As for the trunk paint being slightly different - & same for any area away from sunlight - that is not at all uncommon for colors prone to sun fading - & reds are notoriously the worst for sunfading, so that is to be expected, & good painters will use the trunks & other "hidden" interior areas to paint match for proper color repaints - rather than matching an already faded exterior (unless they're trying to match a spot repair on the outside to the then existing state of the color).

I go back to my other suggestions above, to check for consistent VINs & Chassis Nos. at all points, then to do some deeper research for untouched areas which might still have the L20C Nepal there, but not easily showing (add to that looking up under the dash - way up - to see if there is any Nepal over spray up there.

That said, if it was treated to a full bare metal rotisserie or other full strip & repaint resto at the time the red was painted, then you won't find any remnants anywhere in all probability.

However, that doesn't make the L20C on the Karmann Plate incorrect, so if you match all numbers & find or not find remnants of Nepal - then I would still suggest that you call PCNA's COA department & ask fro somebody experienced with 914s & older Porsches, then go thru it all with them, & ask them to look on the actual microfilmed Kardex for your car to see what it actually says on that original document while you're on the phone.

Then, depending on what they find, ask for the COA to be corrected to match either the Kardex &/or your Karmann Plate's L20C on the car, as appropriate. You'll want the COA on your car to match the Kardex &/or Karmann Plate - not what may appear to be the color everywhere on the car per your looking, for authenticity's sake.

I've given you the other info above, & IMHO I think that in all probability your car was originally painted per the L20C plate & then changed later - just my gut feel for what you've told us.

BTW - Curt has been trying to get the OK & surrounding states' 914ers together for a weekend Talimena 914 Run (Talihena OK to Mena AR & back), so get yourself & Mike (& other locals) with him to plan & run it. He's shown me some excellent pix of it from past years with dozens of beautiful 914s on a bridge. IIRC Sir Andy is in one or more of them. The pix alone are worth a group planning breakfast or lunch for you 914 folks in the Tulsey Town area.

BTW 2 - I get back to Tulsa/NE-OK/Sallisaw several times a year, & when I can, Curt & I usually get together for some BBQ or something, at which you & Mike are welcome to join us. Curt's 914 is also Scarlet IIRC, so the 3 red 914s will look great all lined up in the parking lot at whatever BBQ place we pick. I'm still due for another half-n-half chili cheese burger & fries at Ron's sometime soon! chowtime.gif

PS - I see the extra "bumperettes" on your rear bumper, so I suspect yours was originally a California car, since IIRC only CA required those on the 75-76 914s, along with the crapalytic converters - so check for some California Emissions Compliance stickers in the engine bay too.

beerchug.gif santa_smiley.gif
Tom
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Correct - it is an original California car. I had the smog stuff taken off at Rennsport in Tulsa and have it all in a box. Not decided whether to sell it off or keep it for a future owner. The car went to Vancouver, BC, and then to Calgary, AB, where I bought it from Porsche Centre Calgary.

The areas around the fuel tank and brake master cylinder have clearly never been painted, and are obviously Scarlet Red. There's not a speck of Nepal Orange on the car. The chassis number on the Karmann tag matches the number on the tag next to the passenger-side headlight motor.

At this point, I think I am leaning toward Hans or Franz having a bad day in 1974, though the idea of contacting Porsche directly is interesting. Do you have the number for that department, or should I just contact the local Porsche dealer?
Tom_T
QUOTE(morsmanlaw @ Dec 18 2016, 01:18 PM) *


Correct - it is an original California car. I had the smog stuff taken off at Rennsport in Tulsa and have it all in a box. Not decided whether to sell it off or keep it for a future owner. The car went to Vancouver, BC, and then to Calgary, AB, where I bought it from Porsche Centre Calgary.

The areas around the fuel tank and brake master cylinder have clearly never been painted, and are obviously Scarlet Red. There's not a speck of Nepal Orange on the car. The chassis number on the Karmann tag matches the number on the tag next to the passenger-side headlight motor.

At this point, I think I am leaning toward Hans or Franz having a bad day in 1974, though the idea of contacting Porsche directly is interesting. Do you have the number for that department, or should I just contact the local Porsche dealer?


IMHO, always keep the original parts & equipment, including the smog crap & if you swapped out transaxles etc. on any other work. With these 914s being rediscovered as the other older aircooled P-cars reach unobtanium values for mere mortals, the 914s will continue to raise in value, & all original & matching numbers parts/cars are key to this value.

The Karmann Plate on the front driver's door jamb cannot match the one in the frunk, since the latter is the VIN & the Karmann has only Chassis No. & Paint Code. Karmann Plate should match the Chassis no. stamped in the rear floor area of your rear trunk.

As for the Frans/Hans bad day - that really is more unlikely than an obvious incorrect COA - which you clearly have with an incorrect for model year paint code & name.

Again, if your car's respray was a total car stripped to bare metal, you will have no way to know nor find any original paint, & the current red will "look" as if original. If so, then it is IMPOSSIBLE to tell if it was repainted - other than by the official records.

A good high quality total strip to bare metal full body color change can be that good. In fact, the factory paint jobs left unpainted areas in the fuel tank compartment, under the dash, etc. where the spray booth just didn't hit - so if it's perfectly painted all red with no overspray-ish fade-out behind & down inside your car's fuel compartment area, then that in itself is evidence of a full repaint - whether or not a color change.

You asked us the question on it, so you'll have to do the research with PCNA to ferret out what the original Kardex really has on it for paint code, since the COA is clearly in error their "Scarlet (Mars) Red/H3." designation. This is no different with what you'd do on a legal case research, by which example I'm assuming that you're a lawyer with your morsmanlaw screen name - & if not, then it's still what you'd expect your own lawyer to do - & not assume nor guess - IF you really want the answer.

Verifying that the original paint code was indeed L20C won't change the car's history, & it won't force you to change it back to Nepal Orange if you prefer the current Red. It's just a matter of getting your facts straight on your documentation, for a query you made of us on here.

The PCNA 800# is at the first link, while their COA forms are at the 2nd link as an fyi - but don't put that in & pay another $120 for a new COA, when they have the duty to correct your current COA since it is obviously incorrect, since IF the Scarlet Red were in fact the original color despite the Karmann Plate, then it should read "L31M Scarlet Red".

http://www.porsche.com/usa/dialogue/contactandinformation/
... pick the appropriate auto-answer menu numbers for Customer Care, etc. to COAs

http://www.porsche.com/usa/accessoriesands...tion/documents/

Lastly, if you still don't believe me that PCNA makes mistakes on COAs & car records - with my 914, aside from their insistence that the #31 was a Black rather than its true Beige interior, they also tried to claim that: per their records my early `73 914-2.0 "914S" built 8/31/72, was not sold new until September of 1974!!

When in fact I'm the 2nd owner since 12/75 & have the original CA-DMV Title & all Registration Cards since then showing that it was in fact sold in CA on 11/6/72, here in Orange County CA. Again, they refused to remove the inaccurate sales record from my car until I contacted the supervisor to insist & sent a photo of my first 1975 Reg Card with the date on it!

I'm trying to very clearly give you the unequivocal message that the most probable culprit in this paint color dilemma of yours is PCNA's COA - which is unequivocally in error with at least their "Scarlet (Mars) Red/H3." reference, which in any case should be corrected to "Scarlet Red/L31M" - even if the Kardex says it is that color & not the Karmann Plate's "Nepal Orange/ L20C"!!

beerchug.gif santa_smiley.gif
Tom
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SirAndy
QUOTE(Tom_T @ Dec 18 2016, 02:31 PM) *
since the COA is clearly in error their "Scarlet (Mars) Red/H3." designation

WTF.gif

VIN: 4752905149
Color: Scarlet Red (Ibizarot) - L31M - '75/'76

That color was available in '75, so why would the COA be "clearly in error"?

The color of the car matches the COA and the color was available in '75.

I would argue that the COA is correct and the car has the wrong color stamped on the Karmann Plate.
shades.gif
Tom_T
QUOTE(SirAndy @ Dec 19 2016, 10:39 AM) *

QUOTE(Tom_T @ Dec 18 2016, 02:31 PM) *
since the COA is clearly in error their "Scarlet (Mars) Red/H3." designation

WTF.gif

VIN: 4752905149
Color: Scarlet Red (Ibizarot) - L31M - '75/'76

That color was available in '75, so why would the COA be "clearly in error"?

The color of the car matches the COA and the color was available in '75.

I would argue that the COA is correct and the car has the wrong color stamped on the Karmann Plate.
shades.gif


Because Andy, on the COA he said it says "Scarlet (Mars) Red/H3." - & the bolded (Mars) & /H3 are incorrect for a 75 914.

If it were correct, then it should be simply put as: "L31M Scarlet Red"
.... for a 75 or 76 914's COA - if is was that color from the factory.

As for your contention that the Karmann Plate is wrong, & the COA is correct - I'll agree to disagree .... pending the OP doing the suggested research with PCNA.

If he calls PCNA & finds that the Kardex also says L31M &/or Scarlet Red, then I would agree, that the Karman Plate was in error - & he will still want them to correct his COA to properly refer to paint color as "L31M Scarlet Red."

That was my point, as well as that the COAs are more often wrong, as I've never seen any Karmann Plate that didn't match the Kardex info., but there could be some.

More likely IMHO is that a really good complete color change was done to Red on his L20C car at some point before he got it recently.

Furthermore, I have NOT said that Scarlet Red L31M is not a 75-76 color ANYWHERE in this thread, so I don't know where the heck you got that I did!!?? confused24.gif

beerchug.gif santa_smiley.gif
Tom
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SirAndy
QUOTE(Tom_T @ Dec 19 2016, 05:10 PM) *
Furthermore, I have NOT said that Scarlet Red L31M is not a 75-76 color ANYWHERE in this thread, so I don't know where the heck you got that I did!!?? confused24.gif

I would quote you but you changed your original post ...
rolleyes.gif
Tom_T
QUOTE(SirAndy @ Dec 19 2016, 07:05 PM) *

QUOTE(Tom_T @ Dec 19 2016, 05:10 PM) *
Furthermore, I have NOT said that Scarlet Red L31M is not a 75-76 color ANYWHERE in this thread, so I don't know where the heck you got that I did!!?? confused24.gif

I would quote you but you changed your original post ...
rolleyes.gif


Oh Horse Puckey!! mad.gif
... I did no such thing on ANY content, except to correct misspellings.

Perhaps you should just read them more carefully!? beerchug.gif

Tom
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morsmanlaw
Sir Andy is undoubtedly correct. This is so because his name is Andy, as is mine. Settled. beerchug.gif
Tom_T
QUOTE(morsmanlaw @ Dec 20 2016, 05:15 PM) *

Sir Andy is undoubtedly correct. This is so because his name is Andy, as is mine. Settled. beerchug.gif


Well then, there you have it! beerchug.gif
morsmanlaw
I have sent an email request to PCNA, along with photos of the various tags, stickers and the COA. If and when I get a response, I will endeavor to update this thread. Until then, it's bated breath for everyone.
morsmanlaw
Well, that was quick. Here's the response from PCNA:

Hello Mr. Morsman,

I have reviewed your comments and the kardex for your vehicle.

I have confirmed the exterior color of your vehicle is recorded as Scarlett (Mars) Red/H3. The L20C & L31M are paint codes and not listed on COA's. We only list the Porsche exterior color code. The paint code is not recorded on the kardex (just the exterior color code).

I cannot advise why this may not match the tag in your vehicle. I can confirm that the kardex and how Germany recorded the vehicle was Scarlett (Mars) Red. The kardex cannot be provided.

Kindest Regards,

Sara Edie
Porsche Specialist, Porsche Contact Center
Porsche Cars North America, Inc.
One Porsche Drive
Atlanta, GA 30354-9817


Now exactly how the "exterior color code" differs from the "paint code," I have no idea, but apparently they do. I will follow up on that. We also learn that the Kardex is secret, probably containing Dr. Porsche's secret recipe for schnitzel.

I don't intend to ask for a replacement Karmann tag for several reasons. One, since I have this information from PCNA, the discrepancy between the tag and the COA, while not explained, is confirmed. Next, I don't want to lose the "Made in Western Germany" tag, and I suspect they don't have a lot of those lying around. Lastly, even if they would provide one, I don't want the hassle of drilling the rivets out of the old one and riveting in the new. I will see it as adding to the mystique of the car.

Thanks for all your comments and ideas.
morsmanlaw
Update: Here is the explanation from PCNA of the meaning of "exterior color code":

"Exterior color code is similar to an option code that Porsche has given to signify each particular color through the years. We use this number."

I'm just a lowly attorney, but the distinction between this and "paint code" continues to evade my understanding.
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