Fuel pump question for the V8 guys, what type and where do you mount?

I'm planning out the surgery on the car and basically am making a paper outline of what goes where (and what gets cut)...

Thanks,

Bill P.

Bill,

do you know what is on it now ?

I would mount a Holley Blue pump under the tank much like your last car. Just remember that whatever you buy... check to see if it is a pusher or puller. Some are designed to push fuel..others do a better job of sucking.


B

So a Holley red or blue mounted where I had it last would be fine? I was thinking about it and thought that would work out.

Bill P.

This is what is on there now...

You *could* mount a Holley right there and be done with it. I would move it a little farther forward (next to where the radiator will be) Hang it on one of the bolt holes for the old bumper shocks (looks like a 75 tub)


B

Any possible problem with heat/vapor lock? I guess the Holley pumps are pretty beefy versus standard 914-4's.

Yep, its a backdated bumper '75.

Good eye!

Bill P.

QUOTE

Any possible problem with heat/vapor lock

Not when the pump is that close to the tank. One of the reasons why I said "move it forward" a little bit.. it will end up next to the radiator so it wont be blasted with hot air (just surrounded by it) This will become more clear as you start mounting the radiator.

I couldnt recall what year the car was. I looked at the car back in 2001 I think at a PacNorWest event in Oregon. Jamie Rust's event I think.. I have slept since then.


B

Here's my fuel pump. Yeah, I know ... I'm just being a troublemaker.

Hey Guy! Nice of you to chime in!

Any clearance issues with a stock fuel pump location? That is a stock one isn't it?

Thanks,

Bill P.

QUOTE (nine14cats @ Apr 29 2005, 09:20 PM)

Hey Guy!  Nice of you to chime in! Any clearance issues with a stock fuel pump location?  That is a stock one isn't it? Thanks, Bill P.

That's a stock (like in cheap) Chevy pump. No clearance issues at all. Since taking the picture I did put a short section of foam rubber pipe insulation between the pump and the hose to reduce heat transfer, not that it was a big deal. Engine block gets hot anyway.
Also, I wrapped the headers. Keeps the heat down and lots quieter.

I almost forgot those existed...LOL

Great shot of your electric water pump setup.

That's cool. The pump has a bleeder on it. Interesting.


B

I'm at the fuel pump mounting stage too. I was planning on locating an electric pump on the engine firewall as many have but I hear the noise can be a problem.

My mech pump on my 283 didn't get gas to the carbs for almost a minute. I suppose I could have replaced it with a higher volume type. I don't think the Renegade brackets allow for mech pumps.

QUOTE

I wrapped the headers.

Dont get them wet.. the wrap traps moisture and makes them rust VERY fast. For some reason the water wont all evaporate. I learned this the hard way. Now I ceramic coat everything (or buy the headers that way)

B

QUOTE

I'm at the fuel pump mounting stage too. I was planning on locating an electric pump on the engine firewall as many have but I hear the noise can be a problem.

My thoughts on this: Most of those pumps are designed to be pushers not pullers. They are designed to be mounted next to the fuel tank in a front engined car. They can push fuel 13 feet if need be... but how well they suck is another question. I know they work (I've mounted them there).. just wasnt comfortable with it.


B

QUOTE (Brad Roberts @ Apr 29 2005, 09:31 PM)

QUOTE I wrapped the headers. Dont get them wet.. the wrap traps moisture and makes them rust VERY fast. For some reason the water wont all evaporate. I learned this the hard way. Now I ceramic coat everything (or buy the headers that way) B

Hi Brad

I bet you're right. Mine are coated with Tech Line ceramic reinforced coating and not paint. I'm hoping this stuff holds up a log time. Plus, my headers don't get wet that much here in the desert.

You'll be fine. Did you safety wire the header wrap onto the headers ? I couldnt keep it on otherwise. It would slip down/off over time. I like the concept.. I just couldnt make it work without it looking like hell a month later.

Cant wait to see this next project of yours done.


B

QUOTE (Brad Roberts @ Apr 29 2005, 08:34 PM)

QUOTE I'm at the fuel pump mounting stage too. I was planning on locating an electric pump on the engine firewall as many have but I hear the noise can be a problem. My thoughts on this: Most of those pumps are designed to be pushers not pullers. They are designed to be mounted next to the fuel tank in a front engined car. They can push fuel 13 feet if need be... but how well they suck is another question. I know they work (I've mounted them there).. just wasnt comfortable with it. B

B,

How do you tell which type? I like the near the tank location but don't people mount them under the tank where they are hard to get to?

QUOTE (Brad Roberts @ Apr 29 2005, 09:47 PM)

You'll be fine. Did you safety wire the header wrap onto the headers ? I couldnt keep it on otherwise. It would slip down/off over time. I like the concept.. I just couldnt make it work without it looking like hell a month later. Cant wait to see this next project of yours done. B

Sorry for getting off the topic of fuel pumps ... but on the headers I used those stainless steels straps kind of like tie wraps. Hasn't slipped off yet. Yeah we're looking forward to seeing the new V8 completed. Engine goes in next week.

QUOTE

How do you tell which type?

I would run one of the small rotary pumps on rubber isolators under the fuel tank.

QUOTE

I like the near the tank location but don't people mount them under the tank where they are hard to get to?

Felix,

How often do you think you will be fooling around with the fuel pump ? ALL (after 74) 911's have their fuel pump mounted to the suspension cross bar directly beneath the tank. Easy to get to once the rock guard cover is off and the car is in the air.


B

QUOTE

Sorry for getting off the topic of fuel pumps ... but on the headers I used those stainless steels straps kind of like tie wraps. Hasn't slipped off yet.

Cool. They came up with a better design later on it sounds. I havent tried to use the stuff in 5-6 years.

Back to our regularly scheduled programming.


B

QUOTE (Brad Roberts @ Apr 29 2005, 08:58 PM)

Felix, How often do you think you will be fooling around with the fuel pump ? ALL (after 74) 911's have their fuel pump mounted to the suspension cross bar directly beneath the tank. Easy to get to once the rock guard cover is off and the car is in the air. B

Come to think of it, my Benz pump is under a cover next to the tank...

The ONLY time I question moving the pump to the front.. is on these stock injected 4 cyl cars with 30 year old plastic lines. When they move the pump up front.. it pressurizes a line that was never designed to be pressurized. V8 guy's running a carb... no problem.


B

QUOTE (Brad Roberts @ Apr 29 2005, 09:12 PM)

The ONLY time I question moving the pump to the front.. is on these stock injected 4 cyl cars with 30 year old plastic lines. When they move the pump up front.. it pressurizes a line that was never designed to be pressurized. V8 guy's running a carb... no problem. B

Do you recall replacing those lines on my car?

I need to remove the tank anyway to mount a swaybar...

Well Im running a..

um..

Cough*

facet fuel pump...

I have a Holley red in my parts bag in the car...

Dont give me that look...
I ran the track at the wcc for (what seemed like) 20 min runs... That pump rocks! (and I know when its on, which REALLY helps sometimes)

DON'T PUT IT ON THE FIREWALL!!!!!

Mine has a Carter pump on rubber isolators right behind the passenger head rest, and it sounds like a really pissed off giant hornet on steroids is trying to buzz its way through the firewall.

I plan to move it, but it is always tough to find time to change something that works when you have 20 other things that need attention that aren't working quite right.

Hi Chris,

Do you know how much pressure your pump is putting out? I think my motor will be very similar to yours..

Collecting parts as we speak...

Bill P.

Judging by the noise, should be about 7500 psi.

I don't know off the top off my head. I'm on the road at the moment with my daughter at a trampoline meet. I'll check the specs when I get home tomorrow.

I originally converted my car with a Mallory 140, very noisy. Switched to a Carter, a little quieter (very little). I'm running a seperate regulator, set around 5 PSI and a large canister filter. The whole assembly is mounted on the engine compartment sidewall, right behind the drivers seat, above the shelf. It's now wired to an oil pressure sensor, so it only runs while the engine is running, but it is very noticable at idle. If anyone comes up with a quiet solution, with enough flow, I'm willing to add to my fuel pump collection...

Eric

Found it Bill: Carter P4594, 8 psi max, 72gph capacity.

I don't know if it is set to the full 8, or regulated down inside the pump.

Here it is.

BTW Eric, I am shocked to hear there is a pump louder than this Carter.

Thanks Chris!

I appreciate the digging for info. I'll see what I turn up as a "quiet" alternative...

Bill P.

You need a rotoary style instead of a diagphram style. Look for one that is silver and cylindrical. Should be in the 30$ range. They operate much like a stock 4cyl high pressure pump.


B

electric pumps are noisey. yes, and you can minumize the noise by using rubber isolation studs that you can use between the pump braket and what ever you mount it to. also use about at least 12" of rubber hose in a loop on both sides of the pump before it attaches to hard fuel lines. this helps isolate the vibration caused by the pump.

almost all electric fuel pumps that i have seen are ment to push fuel. and can cause premuture failure by mounting to high or to far away from fuel sump.

some pumps are just plain old noisey. more ment for race type use than street use. no need for race pumps when only making 400hp.

Troy

Bill, You should seriously consider some sort of FI system. It sounds like you are building a nice car and if you auto x a v8 with a carb you get too much sloshing of the fuel on hard cornering and hard braking. Scott at RH spent a lot of money getting baffles installed in his carb on Peel ( the orange car) because of the sloshing/stalling problem. My FI fuel pump is very quiet and it a joy compared to the Carter I had before the FI.
I think you know that you can not use a mech fuel pump if you use the RH water pump because the alternator mounts where the fuel pump is. This is even more limited if you install the AC.

George

Hi George,

Thanks for the advice. I won't be auto-xing JLO once she gets a V8. No track time, no racing. Just a nice street rod. However, I love cars with FI. Which one do you have. If I remember from the thread, it is laptop programmable. (Holley Commander?)

I'm just keeping the cost down as much as possible to keep the V8 project and the race car project going.

Yeah...I figured you couldn't run a stock pump with the RH system.

Thanks,

Bill P.

I run a Mallory Comp Pump Series 110, it has a buit in pressure regulator and I mounted it where the battery would normally go. Works great. I mounted it using rubber isolators and you can barely hear it. In fact, with the engine running, you cant hear it at all. When you first turn the power on, you really have to listen for it to hear if it is running. Here is a picture of it before I installed it.

QUOTE (Brad Roberts @ May 1 2005, 08:03 PM)

You need a rotoary style instead of a diagphram style. Look for one that is silver and cylindrical.

This Carter IS a rotary, and it is still loud as hell.

Bill,

If you're the creative experimental type (or just plain cheap) there are a couple of alternatives for your fuel pump situation. Both of these work. First alternative, you can scrap the current belt-drive water pump scheme and put it on eBay along with the block hose fittings, brackets, belt and pulley. Maybe I read somewhere you got the serpentine drive so then rule this out. If V-belt, sell it and use the money to buy a Dedenbear electric water pump and water header for under $400. Then you can use an inexpensive Chevy mechanical fuel pump, which are very quiet by the way.

Another cheapskate option on the fuel pump is you take a 914 FI pump and modify it to reduce the pressure. You pull the cap off the bypass valve and remove one of the internal springs, then on the bench with a pressure gauge play with the remaining spring length to get the pressure you want. You can set it to about 10 psi then install a separate adjustable regulator between it and the carb. Obviously don't bench test with gasoline, use something like kerosene or even water if you flush it out with some gas. You might think this is crazy, but I ran with this for a few months before I relocated my alternator to allow use of a stock Chevy pump.

Chris, that's the same Carter that I've got, and yes the Mallory 140 might have been louder.

Scott, my Mallory 140 looks alot like your 110, but it was very noticable. Maybe I should try to come up with some sort of isolation mount.

Still looking for an alternative...

Eric

I'm not sure this will help but I installed mine under the tank. I have a very high pressure Volvo Turbo unit. My injection system requires an accumulator as well. I mounted the accumulator to the sheild under the rack. biggest problem is I think the pump is in the way of the sway bar position. And I really need one.

Bill,
I used the Holley Projection 2d. It is the simpelest FI you could buy.
If I were to do it over again I think I would get a stock Throttle body injection that is modified for my motor.
There is a guy on E-bay that sells a turn key kit and if you tell him your motor specs he will custom program it along with spark advance control for about $1000.00. That includes o2 sensor etc.
BTW I could get the fuel to slosh in from the rear bowl into the throttle throats with spirited street driving. I even changed three diferent brand carbs, Holley, Carter, and Demon.
Another good thing about FI is that if you get a steeper geared trans the FI runs better at low RPM than a carb does.

Good luck you are gonna love the acceleration!
George

QUOTE

use the money to buy a Dedenbear electric water pump

Guy,

Last time I checked (albeit several years ago).. these where not for continous use. Even the drag racers where having issues with them after a years use of between rounds "cooling". Take into consideration that they only had to move water a total of 4 feet compared to our 26 feet and I question the reliability of ANY electric pump for this application. I know they work.. I have seen it.. but for how long ?


B

The new Street Rodder mag has a very good article about the EMP Stewart Components Inline Electric Water Pump.
Or you can checkout http://www.stewartcomponents.com
CCLINWCC2006INMYV8

Yes. I wondered where this came from. I noticed this setup in another car in another post.. (maybe noticed it in a magazine) This is THE route I would go if I had an option:

B

QUOTE (Brad Roberts @ May 2 2005, 09:38 PM)

QUOTE use the money to buy a Dedenbear electric water pump Guy, Last time I checked (albeit several years ago).. these where not for continous use. Even the drag racers where having issues with them after a years use of between rounds "cooling". Take into consideration that they only had to move water a total of 4 feet compared to our 26 feet and I question the reliability of ANY electric pump for this application. I know they work.. I have seen it.. but for how long ? B

When I got my Dedenbear tank, they told me their pump was not for continuous use but that was maybe 10 years ago. Harry has run the Meiziere for over a year reliably as well as at ThunderHill driving to and back. I'm sure elect pumps can work but they're not common...

I saw a potentially more reliable brushless type at SEMA - Stewart Pumps

Brad, do you think that could actually keep a v8 car cool for daily driving?

It looks small...

would be really cool for a v8 though... nice alternative..

Dont have to worry about a water pump or brackets, rennegade radiator system is 1k+... subtract water pump from that and use the money for radiator shrowding, exc.

Seriously though, those look a little small.... although I MUST say, running twin of those (if there small) with one pump at each fenderwell, fan (probably a sucker fan) blowing right at the brakes. Would also allow you to keep almost half your trunk! (airtight none the less).

I've talked with the stweart rep. at a car show and he didn't recommend using the electric pump by itself in a street application.

They had a demo set up using the electric pump in series with a stock belt driven pump. It was pretty impressive but they were only turning the belt driven pump at a slow rpm. It was the same setup they show on their web page.

I think on the Stweart web site they even say not to use the pump by itself in street car.

Copied from the stweart web site.
Drag Racing:
Recommended for drag racing applications only, when used as a replacement for mechanical water pump.

I think the only electric pump manufacter that say their pumps are streetable is Meziere.

Bob

I researched electric pumps considerably two years ago. When I came across the Dedenbear unit I called the company and spoke to their product engineer. He told me the pump would work just fine for continuous use in a street car, and gave me advice on installation. Location of the pump, wiring (minimal voltage drop), and foreign material (Teflon tape, etc.) in the cooling system are the main considerations. This pump has run flawlessly for over a year for me. I've driven the car all day long, and hours at sustained 70-75mph with no problems. Lot's of stop and go city traffic on 100+ days too. Works for me. I'd have no concern using it again.

Guy,
You and others are pioneers and I doubt any pump manufacturer wants to be responsible for a production application for a pump they developed for competition use. It's also hard to beat the common w/p in pricing except for our remote driven pumps that cost hundreds of dollars. Again it is one of the heat exchange variables that must be tailored for the application. The nice feature about electric is that they can adjust flow rate.

QUOTE (Andyrew @ May 3 2005, 12:50 AM)

Brad, do you think that could actually keep a v8 car cool for daily driving? It looks small...

it's not ACTUAL size........