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Tom_T
For those CW's who care, I'll pass along some info which was given to me in a couple of emails from a renown 914 restoration expert & judge involved since from the old days when they were new.

I decided to share this with the O&H Forum where most of we CWs look for help, for informational purposes, & note that mine is an early 73 2.0 - so I have no vested interest in this item on my 914. However, I may someday be called upon to judge where this originality item may come into the judging criteria, but read below for where that comes into play.

So please don't shoot the messenger on this if you disagree, & try to treat your posted inputs congenially & helpfully to fellow members who are restoring &/or preparing their early 914s for show .... or sale.

As for my own judging background - I've been in PCA since 2009 & took the Zone 8 Judging School then (+ every year or two since), have been judging in PCA Zone 8 since 2010 at 3-5+ Concours events a year (so probably over 25-30 CdEs so far I'd guess, without looking at my past years' calendars) - but not at any PCA Parades to date nor AACA/CCCA/etc. CdE yet where originality is judged - & in the process I have gotten to know many more qualified judges & restorers of these fun 914 cars in that time than am I, as well as those whom I've met over the long time since 1970.

I got my 73 914-2.0 ("914S") in 1975 as 2nd owner, & drooled over them at the dealers & over other folks' 914s since they were released in Fall of 1969. I did shortly consider getting a new 914/4 as my 1st car in Fall 1970, but my budget was only $800 & I wouldn't have the means to make enough money to both make payments/insurance, & pay for my college degree - so I waited until after I graduated in June `74 & then had a good job to get mine in `75. So I've been around 914s since 1970, looked at many over 1975 to purchase new or used, & have owned mine since Dec. 1975, & had done a repaint/rust repair in Summer 1976, & a full cosmetic & mechanical rolling resto/refurb in 1980-83, & have been researching, parts sourcing & slowing working on it's 3rd & full resto since 2009.

My concours experience goes back further than my 914 ownership & later judging, as I'd also helped one of my uncles with his prep & restoration of his 1958 Corvette back in the mid-1960's for the much more stringent on originality Corvette Club, before it was his class record holding dragster at OC Raceway in the later 1960s, & after it was a true barn-found car that he bought from the widow of the OO in 1961, & then he used it as his DD for several years.

So I do know a bit about 914s & CdEs myself. Moreover & more importantly, I've gotten to know some folks whom I consider excellent experienced & knowledgeable resources on originality & judging of 914s, Porsches & many other marques & models - including several past & present PCA Parade level judges. Therefore, I can say that my "Deepthroat" source for this information is very reliable & extremely knowledgeable about 914s & on this particular matter - unless somebody comes forth with written documentation from Porsche to the contrary. But who does not wish to weigh-in personally on the matter here. The way some members talk on here, it is preferred by them to just read & not post themselves - & frankly I don't blame them!

In the time of my recent judging & working on researching, parts sourcing & working on my most recent/current 914 restoration of my car (albeit slowly) - I've relied on a few select sources on originality for my `73 2L's resto, & this info is from one of them, & this source may just be judging your 914 at a PCA Parade or other event someday, when originality on this item may come into play for your car's scoriing (words of warning).

In my judgement, you're foolish not to heed this helpful information.

However, today 45-47 years later, there are a bunch of 914 folks not finding them on their cars, & are rightfully a bit confused as to why not, & why they see no screw mounting holes on their left or driver longitudinal. Likewise, some may see them on the right side for those UK & Commonwealth Countries with RHD, & Japan, etc. where the like to drive RHD.

Additionally, some have posted elsewhere that their 914 has them on both sides - which I suspect the passenger side would be on either an owner add-on, or an added right one from a RHD conversion 914 (just my postulation). AFAIK VW-Porsche never did factory RHD 914s, but the cars were designed/engineered to accept RHD, so some conversion companies in the RHD countries did the conversions aftermarket.

If you read the quotes from the 914 restorer & judge friend of mine below, you will see that they were a standard factory item from 1970-72 MYs on the driver's side only, & my guess or supposition is that it was done due to interference with & difficulty in retrieving from around the e-brake on the left side in LHD countries' 914s. Ergo none was deemed needed on the right or passenger side with either fixed passenger/right seat or with the space around the movable right seat (72>), if the belt dropped down in there. It was just one of the little details which VW-Porsche included in the early cars to make them easier for the owners, & became unnecessary when the retractable 3-point belts came out in the 1973 MY.

Here is the information compiled from several posts on several topics on 914world to better illustrate & define the factory supplied seat belt holder FYI - & Thanx to those members whose information was included below from their other posts on 914world.

Posted by me from my source:
"Based on a reliable source from the old days, who is far smarter than am I on these 914 details:

"The seat belt tongue holster was installed on all 914 and 914-6 models from model year 1970 to model year 1972 until 12/31/71. One per car on the driver's side with four 2.9x9.5 lens head screws to secure Factory part number is 91480314110 If you do not have one on your drivers side, your car is not correct!"

If your screws are pulling out, then they're probably either the wrong length screws &/or the carpet isn't original, since some after market carpets are a slightly deeper pile/backer material. [Edit: the factory screws were small, so often could not penetrate past the thicker loop pile carpet, as noted in the other quote below, & you may not see any hole, but only a slight dimple or nothing.]

My supposition was always since back in the 70's, that they put this "Holster" in to get it away from jamming the folding e-brake, which became unnecessary when the retractable belts came in."

Posted by Glenn S.:
"I believe the part number is 914.803.141.10
I think it was so the seat belt did not interfere with the hand brake
IPB Image"

Also posted by me from my source:
"One more clarification for those reading here who really care about originality for their car - I would put more weight on those posting here holsters or not from the ORIGINAL OWNERS of the subject 914s - vs. 2nd, 3rd, etc. owners "looking for holes".

"Those screws were so tiny that many did not pierce the rockers but rather just went into the thick loop carpet on the cars. Only with the perlon could one ever see any penetration.""

Link to Mike Fitton's post on his NOS set of Euro 73 MY ones:
.... (My guess is that apparently they kept the non-retractable belts longer there, or else these are 73 manufactured replacements for the early 70-72 type belts with the holster.)
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?sho...=NOS+seat+belts

The NOS Holster is in the bag with teeny-tiny screws in this pic from his post linked above:
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^ More photos added above as later edit for clarity on the full contents of the ealry 70-72 era seatbelt kit's contents. IMHO, the fact that the single seat belt holster & its 4 small mounting screws are packaged in the bag with the rest of the seatbelt hardware, is yet another indicator that it was a standard issue item which was - or should have been - included on all 70-72 914s within the date range noted by my 914 expert.
.

And from Tradisrad's 2009 topic on installing one on his 914:
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=101654

Here are his pix of it loose, installed & in-use that he posted there:
IPB Image
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And pix of the 4 screw holes & as installed on the driver side longitudinal - when they occurred -
of the holes from Paul's 70 /4 from that same topic (he's the OO):
IPB Image
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And a sideview pic of Michael N's from the linked topic above:
IPB Image

Pic of another one installed by SirAndy for same topic above:
IPB Image
.

As a further indicator that it was intended for the 70-72 914s as a factory item - not a dealer accessory as some have contended, the pic clipped from a parts manual posted in post #14 below by SirAndy - it indicates the 914-6, /4 & 1.7 sub-models of the 70-72 MY era, & is similar but easier to read than the small pic of it where it's called a "holder" from Glenn S's. pic above. ----v

IPB Image
.

And if you want a headache of "screw arguments" - then you can also read on here, since there are several OOs & others posting about this era 914 with the holsters, as an FYI.

See here:
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?sho...309704&st=0

Another pic from the above topic of Paul's 70 914/4 with the seat belt holster holes location called out:
IPB Image

.

Thanx again to all from whom I've borrowed the photos & info herein.

I've culled the key info. from a Garage Forum post where they've decided to let it devolve into an argumentative search for elusive screw holes, despite several posts saying that the screws were too short to reach the steel with the thicker pile carpet.

If you're a true CW & in the interest of erring on the conservative side - I suggest that you forget looking for or worrying about screw holes now 45-47 years later, & Primarily pay attention to the OO reports of them on their own & other known 70-72 914s.

As for the judging for originality on this item - neither most local single, grouped nor multi-marque car shows, nor at the PCA's Zones' & Regions' Concours - all generally do not judge originality. ERgo, it should not matter whether or not you have a holster .... in most cases. However, if they're tie-breaking & either don't have another tie break methodology, or if their method is to look for non-original items/missing original items to break the tie - then you may be at a disadvantage without this seat belt holster on a 70-72 model - &/or with any other non-original items &/or missing items.

It will never show up on a COA, since it wasn't an option, but a standard item/feature.

Please do not devolve this topic into another "screw hole" argument! shades.gif

But if you're an original owner, or a later owner who can confirm original fitment of the driver side seatbelt holster in their 914s as originally delivered, &/or with any other info helpful on this topic for owners/restorers/competitors of these cars - then please do chime in! type.gif

Also, if you have factory, PCNA, PAG or other documented information which says otherwise on this being a standard feature on all 70-72 MY cars, &/or with other date limits, &/or other information for the non-USA markets around the world, then please do add that info. here in a post below as well. type.gif

Note that this sort of documentation from Porsche, PCNA, PAG, etc. by country of origin of your car, is the only type of documentation which will suffice to refute any challenge or judging deduction in those PCA Parade & other CdE's where they do judge on originality, as is a COA when it comes to optional items, colors, etc.

So it is important to force PCNA to correct any errors in their preparation of your COA if you have information to the contrary, such as a Mulroney Window Sticker (which is usually also accepted as documentation for items listed thereon).

Good Luck to you restoring/preserving/showing a 70-72 914 with this item. first.gif

Cheers! beerchug.gif
Tom
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Tom_T
I will run this above post by my judging/restoration expert for corrections, then make them at a later date.

Again - if you post in here, please keep them to helpful info, & not arguments.

Cheers! beerchug.gif
Tom
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1970 Neun vierzehn
Tom,

Talk about a comprehensive and thorough analysis of a rather arcane subject.....you get the trophy smilie_pokal.gif

Not surprisingly, your accurate detail of this obscure element of the early cars was absolutely correct.

Kudos!

Paul
Tom_T
QUOTE(1970 Neun vierzehn @ May 10 2017, 05:46 PM) *

Tom,

Talk about a comprehensive and thorough analysis of a rather arcane subject.....you get the trophy smilie_pokal.gif

Not surprisingly, your accurate detail of this obscure element of the early cars was absolutely correct.

Kudos!

Paul


Thanx Paul,

I'm still waiting for my buddy to review it - the real guru on this!

I'd really not thought about it for years, since the last time I saw my buddy Jerry's Bahia 71 with +/-61K original miles.

I mainly just compiled the info from others on here & what my judge/restorer buddy fed to me by email, & moved it on here, cuz the gang of 5 or whatever number were just getting too nasty & off subject over in the Garage, where the question about them was asked.

I wonder if they realize that those types of argumentative confrontations on the judging field would get them ejected & their cars disqualified? I doubt that many - or maybe any - have ever even been to a Concours.

Please do post anything else or pix that you feel will help others with 70-72's to restore or get right again for Parade etc.

Thanx again for your pix which I already used above!

Cheers! beerchug.gif
Tom
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McMark
Just because you wrote a lot doesn't mean it's authoritative. rolleyes.gif
SirAndy
QUOTE(McMark @ May 11 2017, 06:03 AM) *
Just because you wrote a lot doesn't mean it's authoritative. rolleyes.gif

agree.gif
gandalf_025
OK, I just went out and checked my car..... Which is in a semi disassembled state...
Here are pictures of the area in question and the factory rug that is still on the car.

I have owned this car, # 619 since 4/73. I bought it from the dealership that sold it new.
The original owner traded the car with 23,000 miles and he didn't know which end of a screw driver to hold..
Here is the area.. {forgive the glue}

Click to view attachment

and a picture of the factory rug in that area..

Click to view attachment

Personally I don't see any sign of it ??? Maybe I'm looking in the wrong spot ??

Tom_T
As noted in the 2nd quote from the expert judge in my O.P., the screws apparently did not always penetrate the steel, & the carpet may have been changed out or the holes disappeared over time - as the fibers tend to go back to original weave, if it were removed.

I think that the strongest evidence that they were included on all cars, was that the holster & screws was included in the NOS factory seatbelt kit posted by the other member who's pix I included in the first post - in addition to the expert opinion of a judge/restorer whose information I trust implicitly.

If you're not trying to restore yours to full originality for PCA Parade or other CdEs where strict originality is judged, or where you're looking to sell it to a purist - or unless you like the idea of having one to keep the belt out of the e-brake area - then I wouldn't sweat it!

As Paul said - it's a mundane detail only on early MYs which really doesn't affect my 73 2.0!

However, with 914-6's now reaching the $100K+ mark - if I had one which I was restoring or showing, then I'd certainly spend the time & effort to make it perfect, & get the holster! first.gif

PS - Gandolf, I also meant to say that when PCNA sent out their District Service Mgr. out to my house a few years back to confirm the HO & BO Recalls were not done, & which color interior, fog lights & center console were originally on my 73 914-2.0 from the factory, he said that back in the day the dealers would put 2 cars side-by-side & could completely swap interiors between them for a customer request - & he would know having been a Porsche Tech/SA/SM for several SoCal P-dealers (no names, as I won't subject anyone else from now on to the abuse on here).

He was able to confirm that mine was Beige since PCNA's COA people misinterpreted that code as black, & that no HO Recall was ever done (battery cover & fuel lines), that the fog lights & dash switch had been removed by the selling dealer since the wires were still there & snipped, & same for center console - snipped wires, marks from the under dash bracket & screw hole threads used, & his personal knowledge that all 914-2.0s in the US market in that early part of the 73 MY (built 8/31/72 & sold new 11/6/72) were fitted out as the advertised "914S" with both Appearance & Performance Groups, but couldn't confirm/not that the BO Recall was done (Early non-hubcentric Fuchs 2L wheels used on the new hub-centric "self-centering" front hubs) because the dealer had talked the OO into switching to Rivieras instead, & just kept one or both sets of 5 Fuchs 2L wheels for resale at 100% profit (common back then).

So with all that said, your carpet when first sold, or thereafter by the dealer could have been swapped out (e.g.: if it had wear or stains etc.); or the OO/PO could've removed the holster.

You could look for any evidence of holes in the carpet at the spot, but then again - that would mean nothing to any Parade/etc. judges if you entered it. If you're not entering & not worried for your resto, no big deal. But if you are concerned or if you just want to cover all originality bases, then I'd recco adding it now. Your car, your choice.

Cheers!
Tom
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SirAndy
QUOTE(Tom_T @ May 11 2017, 12:17 PM) *
As noted in the 2nd quote from the expert judge in my O.P., the screws apparently did not always penetrate the steel

This makes no sense what-so-ever.

Please do as all a favor and try to screw a sheet metal screw into your long without first drilling a hole.
It is impossible to fasten the holster correctly without first drilling holes.


If this was indeed done by the factory, all of the early cars would have the holes drilled into the long.

The fact that so many early cars do NOT have the holes and show no sign of those holes ever being there makes your assertion that these were factory installed highly implausible.
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Tom_T
QUOTE(SirAndy @ May 11 2017, 08:38 AM) *

QUOTE(McMark @ May 11 2017, 06:03 AM) *
Just because you wrote a lot doesn't mean it's authoritative. rolleyes.gif

agree.gif


OK - I'm only going to answer Andy's & Mark's 2 useless posts above for one reason - to clarify for you two & anyone else reading here - how Concours judging really works, & how to comport yourselves on judging challenges.

Others - feel free to skip below, to where I cover the judging, challenges & expert opinions are handled in CdEs....

NO, it is authoritative because it did come from a respected & authoritative judge/restorer 914 source - & that DOES make it authoritative!

And certainly just because you cannot find screw holes, does not make it not so! dry.gif

And to be clear - other than my explaining my judging quals & 914 ownership history in that 1st post - I only COMPILED & EDITED this information from others & my 914 judge/restoration expert - so technically I didn't "[write" a lot] Mark!

While screw holes are certainly contributory evidence that one was/is there - it is not conclusive evidence that they were not when missing the holes - as stated by the expert whom I quoted, the screws apparently often did not penetrate the steel longitudinal behind the carpet.

As I noted in the reply above to gandolf - the fact that the holster & screws IS INCLUDED in the early car's non-retractable kit, is better evidence that they were in fact included or expected to be included on all 70-72 914s.

Moreover, if one were to attempt to to argue with a judge or judging team on the Concours field at a PCA Parade, Pebble Beach, Amelia Island, etc. against the deduction of points for not having one, when they take the position that it should be there as an expected original equipment item, then you would lose that challenge - unless you have specific written documentation from Porsche/PCNA/PAG on their letterhead that says to the contrary. This is true for any originality item or issue.

YES Mark - in answer to your prior query: "Believe the expert...?" on the other Garage topic about this matter - YES THEY are the experts on that Concours field, & you must have conclusive documentation to challenge this item or anything else which they determine should be on or not on your particular make, year, model, sub-model, trim package, etc. of car!

And - yes Mark - the other judges will defer to the superior knowledge of a particular judge on a particular car's originality, when they are a better expert on it. What I have shared here is from a judge to whom I certainly would & do herein defer.

That's just the way it works, just like the main Ref deferring to the Line Judge/Asst. Ref or other Ref closer to the action in any sport!

That is the way CdE judging works - just as any other competition or sport has rules & judges or referees - & their word is generally final, & can only be challenged under the competition's/sport's set rules for challenges.

Additionally - your car's score can be challenged by a competing car's owner at PCA Parade & many of the other CdEs, when a competing car has some original equipment part(s) that yours lacks &/or something not original, & it requires the same documentation to refute that it was original - or for a challenge that something is a repro part, you pull off the challenged part in question to check for a factory part number or other marking(s) proving it was original, & not a reproduction.

That latter point is critical, since so many 914 parts are now NLA, & this presents a huge challenge to 914 restorers & Concours competitors today.

While Mark W/914Rubber, Dansk, SSI, Vredstein, etc. are filling the NLA gaps admirably with very good & often better-than-original parts - they are still subject to a losing originality challenge.

If anyone doubts this, then they should go read the PCA Parade, AACA, CCCA or whatever group the CdE event is run under Concours rules themselves, & then plan accordingly to compete per those rules, & be prepared to lose points for anything not to their standards. If you two guys &/or others want to question how it all works, then you too should read the dang rules, & not post your unfounded opinions here.

IMHO any competitor should read & fully understand the rules anyway, & I recommend that any series CW actually go to the same or a similar CdE by the same sponsoring organization CdE - as what they wish to enter - in order to see & clearly understand how it all works: to follow the judges around & see how they judge a similar or close car, & to talk with the judges before or after their judging period (where they allow it - PCA Zones/Regions generally do, maybe at Parade if outside the judging period).

Many PCA Zones/Regions also run Concours Prep schools for their local &/or national Parade Concours, which you will find very helpful in both understanding how the judging works, & how to prepare your cars.

PCA Parade also runs a Tech Quiz Competition for folks who like to test their knowledge of Porsche minutia, where the same types of judging/scoring & challenge rules would apply FYI.

A note of caution to those reading here that are serious CdE competitors - please keep in mind that the judges, timers, committee & staff putting on the Concours are all volunteers taking up their personal time to prepare, qualify & be there - just so you can have fun & compete at the show.

So please DO treat them respectfully & politely, shake their hands & thank them for their work, & listen to or read any of their comments on judging your car, so that you can take steps to improve it next time.

Certainly never be rude, angry, argumentative, etc. with the judges & staff. Just take deep breaths & go with the flow! .... and smile.gif

An additional note of caution to those reading here who are serious CdE competitors - The types of comments by Mark & Andy above, & their & other folks' more argumentative & confrontational - shall I say nasty posts - at the other recent Garage Forum on this topic, in challenging the judge/restoration expert in question (& aimed at me as messenger) about whether these - or any other items - were original factory equipment, would not go over well at all.

At the very least - the judge could give you the maximum deduction, rather than lesser or minimum deduction allowed for the item(s) in question - since by doing thus, yourself proving that you know it was possibly required - & screwing your own self on your score!

And at the worst - you could be ejected from the event &/or your car eliminated & disqualified from the competition - then all of your time, effort & expense in preparing your car is down the toilet! You could also get yourself permanently banned or suspended for an extended period, if you're especially nasty with the judges!

I've seen it happen & it is not pleasant!

No judge wants a headache from your haranguing them!
mad.gif ar15.gif devil.gif fighting19.gif spank.gif blowtorch.gif dead horse.gif fyou1.gif blowup.gif evilgrin.gif

I hope that my clearly excessive use of emoticons above makes this point painfully clear to all.

Just treat others in the way in which YOU want to be treated, & you'll be okay!

And while we do not judge originality at most/all PCA Zone & Region level Concours, we do judge the preparation, detailing & cleanliness of your P-cars. So while this item would not be deducted if not there - but if it is installed - then make sure that it's clean & all screws are there & in tight, etc.

If we see 1 or more screws missing or hanging loose or backed out more than a smidge, or dirt on it or in the inside of the slot, then you'll probably lose points if the Interior Judge sees that. And note that in Zone 8 we judge interiors at all levels, from Wash & Shine Div. (Exterior & Interior) - through Street & Preservation Divs. (Exterior, Interior, Storage & Engine) - up to Full Concours Div. (Exterior, Interior, Storage, Engine, & Undercarriage (Belly/Underside) With & Without Engine).

And do NOT argue that you don't think you should have to clean it, or it was clean before, you had all screws before, or whatever else you think it should be done about the judging. the judges have to take judging school before they can judge, & - yes - they can make mistakes, but it's not your job to harass them about it. Just ASK the team's head judge about the instance, & let them either clarify or rectify it for you.

Likewise for our shows, if you were to argue with a judge over those preparation type deductions in the same manner as noted above regarding originality arguments, then you could suffer the same disqualification or ejection consequences. So be NICE!

Beyond that - to explain why or why not a particular 914 isn't showing signs of it now almost half a century later having had a seat belt holster - personally I really don't care - REALLY! Because if someone shows up in front of my source judge/restorer on this item with a 70-72 914 - or any other judge who knows this tiny detail - at Pebble Beach, Amelia, PCA Parade, etc. where originality is judged - then they'll probably or possibly be marked down for not having it - period, end of story!

And one more comment on your treatment of me on this matter Andy & Mark -
Andy, you as owner of this site - & both of you as Admins set an extremely poor example for the membership, on how to treat members on this website. You've both essentially trolled me over here to just harass me. This gives a very bad reputation to this site, as well as yourselves personally.

Look - I never even looked at this topic when it first came up on the Garage Forum a few days ago, since it did NOT apply to my 914 - not at all!

Then my judge/restorer buddy sent me an email about the correct info in his expertise on early 914s, which answered the original question of the OP on the other Garage Forum, as well as for those looking to compete in Concours where originality is judged.

So I fatefully decided to share with the OP & the membership here - that information from a source whom not only do I trust implicitly, but who is also respected by other judges at far higher levels than I for 914 expertise, & whose opinion on this item would indeed stand at any event in which that judge/restorer were judging or consulted on the matter. PERIOD!

You 2 & a couple of others then chose to challenge, put-down & denigrate me personally, for conveying information from another expert.

Is it any wonder that other more respected 914 folks won't post on 914world nor be involved on here, & that only a very small percentage of the 10s of 1000s of registered members ever post on here anymore??

Why would anyone want to subject themselves to such abuse!? confused24.gif

AFAIK - neither of you has ever restored or entered a concours with your 914s where originality is judged - & I don't know if you've ever even gone to a Concours to observe the judging - let alone ever served as a judge at one where originality is judged!

So how heck can you be "experts" on that - & challenge info that a known expert judge has sent along via me, even if anonymously!?

Why would they ever post or contribute further info to the 914world community - upon seeing your treatment of the MESSENGER delivering the information!!?? blink.gif

Moreover, your erroneous opinions & commentary only serves to confuse those CW's with a 70-72 914 who are reading here, & who want to "cover all of their originality bases," by your falsely claiming to know how Concours Judging works.

Look - go to a PCA Concours in your areas, talk to the judges & follow them around, ask if anyone there has judged at PCA Parade, & then ask that Parade judge all the questions you want about how it works & what is judged, & whether or not a known Porsche model's expert opinion would stand on an item like this, or any other originality issue/item, with the rest of the judging team.

Doing so Mark will make you a better restorer for fully original concours cars - if that's what you want to do, & it would make you Andy a far better & more knowledgeable figurehead for this Forum.

If you ever have the CdE's rules' accepted documentation from the manufacturer that this seat belt holster item was not a factory item on all 70-72 914s - then post a pic of it here for all the other owners of them to see, print & have on hand for a Concours Challenge if ever needed. That would be a far better service to members, than the sort of unusable know-it-all opinions which you've both been posting.

Otherwise, all of your opining on screw holes or not is just useless garbage to the 914 owners in the Concours & max value original/restored 914s world!

Again - I don't have a 70-72 914 - so I really do not care for myself, but I do care that you would do such a misinformation disservice to other members & non-members researching on here for their own cars of that era's restoration & preparation.

So I respectfully request that you stop the sniping, & invite you to post any documentation which IS acceptable to the Concours governing bodies - such as PCA, AACA, CCCA, etc. - on the non-originality of this item.

More "no screw holes" arguments & pix are just NOT going to sway any judge who takes the position that they should be there - period & exclamation point - & may only get competitors into trouble & lose points, because they go off saying to a judge something like: "Well Andy who 'owns' 914world & McMark who restores them, & a bunch of other guys on there say they don't have it either said so, since they don't all have screw holes!"

If nothing else, the fact that the holster (one only) is included in the early NOS non-retractable seat belt kit from the factory, & that there appear to be far more 70-72 914 owners chiming in that they have or had them - especially the original owners - & the expert opinion of another highly respected & long term since day one of the 914's run says that they were - trumps any screw hole arguments.

Then again in reality too - somebody may go to great lengths to keep or find & (re-)place one, & then never get it judged one way or another at Parade or any other originality based Concours! That's just the luck of the draw. shades.gif

Dun with you guys! dry.gif
Tom
///////
Tom_T
QUOTE(SirAndy @ May 11 2017, 01:44 PM) *

QUOTE(Tom_T @ May 11 2017, 12:17 PM) *
As noted in the 2nd quote from the expert judge in my O.P., the screws apparently did not always penetrate the steel

This makes no sense what-so-ever.

Please do as all a favor and try to screw a sheet metal screw into your long without first drilling a hole.
It is impossible to fasten the holster correctly without first drilling holes.


If this was indeed done by the factory, all of the early cars would have the holes drilled into the long.

The fact that so many early cars do NOT have the holes and show no sign of those holes ever being there makes your assertion that these were factory installed highly implausible.
poke.gif


A - NOT my assertion.

B - The expert said that not all were drilled.

C - Read the above A & B as to why not all have screw holes.

D - No screw holes is apparently NOT definitive.

E - NOT my assertion, but that of the expert who's info I am relaying , see A.

F - You are NOT the expert, nor are you a Parade/AACA/CCCA judge - my expert is - so your opinion of plausability will not hold water on the judging field with any judging team.

G - IF you had owned your 914-6 & /4 since new to positively say it never came with, & were an adult & involved first hand in 914s in 1970-onward, &/or IF you have documentation from Porsche that it was not on all 914s 70-72 MYs - then an originality expert you may be for those level of judges & restorers.

You are not, so they would not listen to your screw opinion, but rather to my expert's opinion - if it were a choice between the 2 of you!

That is just the way PCA Parade, Pebble Beach, Amelia Island & other AACA, CCCA, etc. originality based concours work pal! Get over it!

PS - In fairness to your continued puzzlement on screw holes - just consider this postulated possibility by me on maybe why no screw holes - maybe the guy on the line at Karmann in Osnabruck who was supposed to use the jig to drill the holes for mounting the holster (probably among several other tasks at his station) didn't always quite get around to drilling them on some cars, & since Karmann built the body shells for both /4 & -6 versions - they would also show up on some Stuttgart assembled 914-6's. Then when the interior assembly person responsible for mounting the holsters in 914/4's at Karmann/Osnabruck & the guy for 914-6's at Porsche/Stuttgart screws in the holster over the carpet assuming ther are holes there (is probably told not to worry if not) & then it is only screwed into the carpet alone - as at least one other owner/member on here has stated at one of the Garage Forum posts on this matter, & as I quoted from my source. maybe, just maybe?? Another possibility since the holster obviously came with the non-retractable seatbelt kits from whichever OEM supplier(s) made them (pix above) - is that they should've been there, & maybe should've been mounted or maybe not, & the packet with them & screws which weren't mounted got thrown into the glovebox or center pocket/cushion or center parcel box??

In the end on the concours field it really doesn't matter, since they can, may & possibly/probably would look for it & score accordingly - no matter waht I, you or anyone else thinks on here "should be" or probably was or was not. It's "above my pay grade" & if ever called upon to judge at Parade/etc., then I would be obliged to follow the applicable rules & positions of the experts on that or any other matter.

Arguing the particular source judge/restorer's position on this matter with me changes nothing, nor does arguing the Concours rules. Again - above my pay grade!

However, it does serve to be insulting to me personally to keep harping on me - as if I am the creator of this information & the CdE rules, since I've said that I was not since my first posting it on the other topic about this.

dry.gif
Tom
///////
SirAndy
QUOTE(Tom_T @ May 11 2017, 03:09 PM) *
...
NO, it is authoritative because it did come from a respected & authoritative judge/restorer 914 source - & that DOES make it authoritative!
...

No, it doesn't. There is no evidence, no proof, just anecdotes and hearsay.
stirthepot.gif

If you really want to proof these were factory installed, find some bulletins, memos, production line pictures, recalls, schematics, installing procedures, find clear cutoff dates that separate cars with holes from cars without holes.
You know, the things one does to establish actual facts.

Anything other than "someone told me so" ...
popcorn[1].gif
SirAndy
QUOTE(Tom_T @ May 11 2017, 03:09 PM) *
... as stated by the expert whom I quoted, the screws apparently often did not penetrate the steel longitudinal behind the carpet ...

Again, you are avoiding my questions.

Have you ever tried to screw a sheet metal screw into a 914 long without drilling a hole first?
Please, do us all a favor and try it yourself, then report back here.

This make NO SENSE, you are suggesting that those tiny screws were screwed through the carpet and into the heavy gauge STEEL long by hand without first drilling any holes.

Does the absurdity of that claim even register the with you at all?
confused24.gif
SirAndy

The current PET lists 914.803.141.10 as "retaining bar" ...
shades.gif

Tom_T
QUOTE(SirAndy @ May 11 2017, 06:20 PM) *

QUOTE(Tom_T @ May 11 2017, 03:09 PM) *
... as stated by the expert whom I quoted, the screws apparently often did not penetrate the steel longitudinal behind the carpet ...

Again, you are avoiding my questions.

Have you ever tried to screw a sheet metal screw into a 914 long without drilling a hole first?
Please, do us all a favor and try it yourself, then report back here.

This make NO SENSE, you are suggesting that those tiny screws were screwed through the carpet and into the heavy gauge STEEL long by hand without first drilling any holes.

Does the absurdity of that claim even register the with you at all?
confused24.gif


Listen Andy - I am neither avoiding your stupid question - of course you cannot put that tiny screw through steel, & NO I don't need to friggin try!

I NEVER said it would - YOU misread & misstated it!

Go back read stuff thoroughly, & I'm sure that you will see.

I do NOT give a flying f**k IF you our any of the other self-appointed internet experts think it is or isn't should or shouldn't be factory!

You are arguing with the WRONG person, & I am not going to continue!

You are stuck on one issue, which really won't matter when you are in front of the judge on a car! If THEY think it should be there, then it could be dinged in points.

STOP the friggin argument with me!

Take your objections to the PCA Concours Rules Committee & see how far you get!

Bye! bye1.gif
Tom
///////
Tom_T
QUOTE(SirAndy @ May 11 2017, 06:33 PM) *

The current PET lists 914.803.141.10 as "retaining bar" ...
shades.gif


Yes, & your crazy Germans call the rubber seal under the side mirrors on the doors "Desk Pad" - what of it!!?? confused24.gif

shades.gif
Tom
///////
Tom_T
QUOTE(SirAndy @ May 11 2017, 06:14 PM) *

QUOTE(Tom_T @ May 11 2017, 03:09 PM) *
...
NO, it is authoritative because it did come from a respected & authoritative judge/restorer 914 source - & that DOES make it authoritative!
...

No, it doesn't. There is no evidence, no proof, just anecdotes and hearsay.
stirthepot.gif

If you really want to proof these were factory installed, find some bulletins, memos, production line pictures, recalls, schematics, installing procedures, find clear cutoff dates that separate cars with holes from cars without holes.
You know, the things one does to establish actual facts.

Anything other than "someone told me so" ...
popcorn[1].gif


I don't need the proof, my car doesn't have them!

And the expert judges do NOT need to prove it to you either!

And I've stated that this is the person who contacted me to provide some helpful info to the rest of this group .... NOT "someone told me"!

If you doubt that, then YOU go contact a Parade 914 judging expert at PCA & ask them!

You can ask either on this specific item or in general, but please, please do for your own sanity, ask them if their word is final, & how you as entrant can challenge such decisions or challenges from other members!

Now, give me a break & go do that for yourself.

rolleyes.gif
Tom
///////
gms
First I think Mark would be able to identify screw holes in a longitudinal, suggesting otherwise is ridiculous.

I don’t believe it would be possible to drive a screw thru the carpet and the longitudinal panel without a pilot hole because the screws used were not self-tapping. I believe the holes would be drilled when the holster was installing like on other parts on the 914.

Every time you think you have an absolute in the production of Porsches (1949-1980s) you will find an exception. My personal theory is that the cars without holes are outliers this is why I think a count of cars with holes and those without is in order before we can make a judgement
gms
QUOTE(SirAndy @ May 11 2017, 08:33 PM) *

The current PET lists 914.803.141.10 as "retaining bar" ...
shades.gif

Andy I can assure you with 100% certainty that I bought these from Porsche in 1997.
However I cannot say that is the part number with 100% certainty.

still in the bag
Click to view attachment
gms
there is this

Click to view attachment
SirAndy
QUOTE(gms @ May 11 2017, 07:52 PM) *
I think a count of cars with holes and those without is in order before we can make a judgement

agree.gif
A count as well as a ordered list of VINs.

This is the best approach by far since it will reveal if there is a pattern to the installation of the holders.
thumb3d.gif
Tom_T
Some notes for those actually preparing their 70-72 914s for Parade in Spokane....

For those of you who are the 10-20% who are serious Concours competitors & reading this mess, the info. from my nationally rated judge is what it is, & trying to explain at Parade why you should not have a points deduction because of no screw holes or due to a 914world survey of 914s today is unlikely to change their mind.

Whether right or wrong - that is the position of the judges, that they should have the holster/holder - so you're best served to present your 70-72 914-6 or /4 with it, or have the possibility or probability that you'll be gigged - regardless of what the Master Debaters on here are saying.

Remember that at Parade, the judges work as a team, & confer with each other on the details of all judged areas (in Zone 8 & it's Regions, we each take an area - interior or whatever, but cannot confer with each other) - so if one knows about this item or any other originality issue, then they will all know - & you will be scored accordingly.

While the chart of which cars have the holes &/or holster may be interesting to those of you with that era 914, it is not one of the means of challenge accepted by PCA rules, when a Model Specialist/Judge determines that something should or should not be on a particular car/era - only Porsche documentation works.

Glen - Thanx for the other input, but to be clear - I never said that the screws could be put thru steel longs without the holes - that was Andy misunderstanding or misreading the text, but I did say that they could have dimpled the steel if the installer screwed them through the carpet after the fact.

And yes, I'm sure that McMark can identify all sort of holes with his experience. I saw & highlighted what looked to me like the screw dimples on Andy's longs in that other thread on this now inane topic.

Normally, I would have no problem naming my sources, but this thread is the perfect example of why I won't in this case (in addition being asked by my source not to do so), nor will I in the future - in order to not subject some other innocent party to this sort of internet bashing fest.

However - I just have to giggle at all this nonsense, because now the behavior on here by a few of you has now elevated this issue & one part to the attention of a number of other judges who are looking at this thread! Ergo, my warning above to the "Real CWs" that I doubt that it won't be a topic at the upcoming Parade in Spokane!

This inane attempt by a couple of people to try to discredit me personally, on 3rd party judging & originality info which I was relaying in good faith to help my fellow CW members on here - has also given all of us a bad reputation in the eyes of these judges/experts, as noted in the quote below!

Here's what my "deepthroat" source had to say about all of this, as well as to have picked out another originality detail on the seat bolts, which someone may care about too. The quotations which I've posted from this 914 expert should tell even a casual observer that they know 914s well!

Here are the latest further commentary & clarifications from my 914 expert:

"wow those guys are nuts. The one picture you show has the wrong bolts (they should be hex not allen) screwing in the seat rack, but the seat belt holster issue is what it is, factory parts in the factory parts book, one required, all usa cars model year 70 to model year 72 through 12/31/71. Jan 72 went to retractible belts. Who knows maybe on the assembly line they forgot a few cars, and the screws are certainly short enough that they would not have pierced thick loop carpet offered on the 70 -72 fours with appearance group and the 71-72 sixes without a lot of help and drilling like the guys said. Obviously installed after the carpet was installed, no one is going to drill into the carpet at the factory as it would cause carpet damage, so either predrilled or forgotten"

Do you folks really want to be known in the Concours community as "nuts"!? blink.gif

Good Luck to the CWs! beerchug.gif
Tom
///////
Tom_T
In case some folks who really care about Concours prep, judging, etc. issues in general or for this particular item &/or any other originality issues ....

.... but are confused, put-off or intimidated by the silliness going on here ....

I've transferred the relevant info. on the seatbelt holder/holster/retaining bar item & on judging/CdE's to the post in 914club's Concours Forum linked below:

http://www.914club.com/bbs2/index.php?show...p;#entry1390471

And you can be sure that the Admins there will eliminate any OT or nasty posts on there, so you can freely ask questions.

I'll still monitor this topic if anyone has a serious post, & I've also asked another member who both actually owns an early 70-72 914 subject to this part's inclusion, & who is also experienced with entering CdE's where originality is judged - to monitor it to answer any specific questions which members may have (since I'm a 73 2L owner).

While a polite & respectful debate on how many cars had these, screw holes or not, etc., whether you believe it or not may be appropriate at the Garage Forum topic on this item ....

This type of nasty, combative, harassing & conjecture posts here is nothing but inappropriate, rude, & a huge disservice to the CW members on here trying to prepare their cars for best results at the Spokane Parade next month, &/or any other originality judged CdEs! Frankly, it's nothing more than personal attacks & attempted cyber-bullying by certain people with over inflated egos.

However, when the website's owner & other Admins are the perpetrators of this type of bad netiquette - there is little chance that it will ever stop on here! dry.gif

In short - the Concours judges just do NOT care what these "Master Debaters" posting on here think or feel or opine - rather, they will judge this & everything else by what are THEIR originality & preparation standards for the make/model/era car, & per their experts on same there/on-call - regardless of anything to the contrary posted here!

And if I happen get banned for standing up for correct info on how this & other originality issues are judged & challenged, as well as myself & calling out the perpetrators - then it only speaks to their integrity or lack thereof - & you can still reach me at 914club! smile.gif

Anyway - Best of Luck to Everyone with the Desire to Compete at Parade etc. CdEs! beerchug.gif
Tom
///////
Pat Garvey
QUOTE(Tom_T @ May 12 2017, 11:02 PM) *

Some notes for those actually preparing their 70-72 914s for Parade in Spokane....

For those of you who are the 10-20% who are serious Concours competitors & reading this mess, the info. from my nationally rated judge is what it is, & trying to explain at Parade why you should not have a points deduction because of no screw holes or due to a 914world survey of 914s today is unlikely to change their mind.

Whether right or wrong - that is the position of the judges, that they should have the holster/holder - so you're best served to present your 70-72 914-6 or /4 with it, or have the possibility or probability that you'll be gigged - regardless of what the Master Debaters on here are saying.

Remember that at Parade, the judges work as a team, & confer with each other on the details of all judged areas (in Zone 8 & it's Regions, we each take an area - interior or whatever, but cannot confer with each other) - so if one knows about this item or any other originality issue, then they will all know - & you will be scored accordingly.

While the chart of which cars have the holes &/or holster may be interesting to those of you with that era 914, it is not one of the means of challenge accepted by PCA rules, when a Model Specialist/Judge determines that something should or should not be on a particular car/era - only Porsche documentation works.

Glen - Thanx for the other input, but to be clear - I never said that the screws could be put thru steel longs without the holes - that was Andy misunderstanding or misreading the text, but I did say that they could have dimpled the steel if the installer screwed them through the carpet after the fact.

And yes, I'm sure that McMark can identify all sort of holes with his experience. I saw & highlighted what looked to me like the screw dimples on Andy's longs in that other thread on this now inane topic.

Normally, I would have no problem naming my sources, but this thread is the perfect example of why I won't in this case (in addition being asked by my source not to do so), nor will I in the future - in order to not subject some other innocent party to this sort of internet bashing fest.

However - I just have to giggle at all this nonsense, because now the behavior on here by a few of you has now elevated this issue & one part to the attention of a number of other judges who are looking at this thread! Ergo, my warning above to the "Real CWs" that I doubt that it won't be a topic at the upcoming Parade in Spokane!

This inane attempt by a couple of people to try to discredit me personally, on 3rd party judging & originality info which I was relaying in good faith to help my fellow CW members on here - has also given all of us a bad reputation in the eyes of these judges/experts, as noted in the quote below!

Here's what my "deepthroat" source had to say about all of this, as well as to have picked out another originality detail on the seat bolts, which someone may care about too. The quotations which I've posted from this 914 expert should tell even a casual observer that they know 914s well!

Here are the latest further commentary & clarifications from my 914 expert:

"wow those guys are nuts. The one picture you show has the wrong bolts (they should be hex not allen) screwing in the seat rack, but the seat belt holster issue is what it is, factory parts in the factory parts book, one required, all usa cars model year 70 to model year 72 through 12/31/71. Jan 72 went to retractible belts. Who knows maybe on the assembly line they forgot a few cars, and the screws are certainly short enough that they would not have pierced thick loop carpet offered on the 70 -72 fours with appearance group and the 71-72 sixes without a lot of help and drilling like the guys said. Obviously installed after the carpet was installed, no one is going to drill into the carpet at the factory as it would cause carpet damage, so either predrilled or forgotten"

Do you folks really want to be known in the Concours community as "nuts"!? blink.gif

Good Luck to the CWs! beerchug.gif
Tom
///////

WOW!!!!!! I am so happy that I stayed away from this group. Tom, you will take a beating from Das Fuhrer for anything, as I'm certain you now realize. I WOULD say that you should include only a small portion of the '72 models for these parts, as the retractable belts did away with them. Quite frankly Andy and his cronies, with their highly bastardized "914"s" should not even approach originality people with their supposed "knowledge". Good luck Tom. Pat
Tom_T
QUOTE(Pat Garvey @ May 13 2017, 05:10 PM) *

WOW!!!!!! I am so happy that I stayed away from this group. Tom, you will take a beating from Das Fuhrer for anything, as I'm certain you now realize. I WOULD say that you should include only a small portion of the '72 models for these parts, as the retractable belts did away with them. Quite frankly Andy and his cronies, with their highly bastardized "914"s" should not even approach originality people with their supposed "knowledge". Good luck Tom. Pat


Hi Pat,

I think that my expert agreed with you about the 72's, since it was noted as production up to 12/31/71, then thereafter they went with the retractable belts (so the holder was no longer needed) - or somethings to that effect anyway.

I think your 72 may be after the change IIRC.

Cheers! beerchug.gif
Tom
///////
SirAndy
QUOTE(Pat Garvey @ May 13 2017, 05:10 PM) *
WOW!!!!!! I am so happy that I stayed away from this group. Tom, you will take a beating from Das Fuhrer for anything, as I'm certain you now realize. I WOULD say that you should include only a small portion of the '72 models for these parts, as the retractable belts did away with them. Quite frankly Andy and his cronies, with their highly bastardized "914"s" should not even approach originality people with their supposed "knowledge". Good luck Tom. Pat

Tom's claim that the holders were factory installed with holes drilled in the longs by the factory simply does not hold up to the facts.

And calling me names does not change the facts.
rolleyes.gif
SirAndy
There's really only 3 possibilities:

1 - The holders were factory installed and the mounting holes were drilled by the factory
If that was the case there really shouldn't be any cars without the holes and the holes should be in the same exact place and of similar quality.
Yet there is a significant amount of early cars without the holes drilled and on those who have the holes drilled, the placement varies and many appear to have been drilled by hand without the use of a template.

2 - The holders were dealer/owner installed and the mounting was up to the installer
This would explain the differences in the hole placements, missing holes and variations in the quality of the install.

3 - The holders were factory installed but no holes were drilled, the mounting screws were only screwed into the carpet
While this seems somewhat unlikely because it results in a rather floppy mounting of the holders, this could also explain the differences in the hole placements, missing holes and variations in the quality of the install because that would mean that the holes were drilled after delivery by either the dealer or the new owner to better secure the holder.


As pointed out by Glenn, compiling a list of VIN numbers in chronological order indicating whether or not a car has the holes drilled (NOTE: Not if they currently have a holder or not but if they have holes drilled in the long!) would help to establish any sort of pattern to the distribution of cars with/without holes.

driving.gif
gms
I am hijacking this thread to get people to shows us what you 1970-71 car has
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=309960
Tom_T
QUOTE(gms @ May 11 2017, 07:52 PM) *

Every time you think you have an absolute in the production of Porsches (1949-1980s) you will find an exception. My personal theory is that the cars without holes are outliers this is why I think a count of cars with holes and those without is in order before we can make a judgement


Hey Glenn,

I'd suggest that you take your idea of a list over to the Garage Forum for a Poll - where it will get the wider audience than just the CWs here - & then report back the end key results later on this thread.

Nevertheless, this is not a "judgement" issue for us to decide - as you say above - since for the Concours events where originality is judged - that power lies [u]solely within the PCA, AACA, CCCA, etc. judges & with the 914/make/model experts whom THEY use.[/u] Some folks here seem to have a problem accepting that fact, but that doesn't change it.

If someone wants to change the judging standards on this item or anything else on originality with any of them, then they'd have to take whatever factual evidence & official Porsche documentation to the contrary to each of those organizations, petition them to reconsider it, & in that process they would probably come up against my judge/914 expert in the process, & would need to prove it out unequivocally against them &/or any other 914 experts.

However, I repeat for those entering Parade in just a few weeks, that this may or probably will be a points deduction item - Fair Warning Given - since this is apparently an accepted originality point my judge/resto expert's noted on early 914s up to 12/31/71 end date, & it's also shown as up to 12/71 on 914-6/4/1,7 ("<72" & "-72" in the PET & other Porsche factory Shop & Parts Manuals means "up to 72 MY" BTW) - as is also shown in your parts pic below (as well as at the 2 other pics of Porsche 914 Parts Manuals for the models).

IPB Image

So far in addition to my judge/914 expert, Paul & the O&H Forum's Moderator Pat have all weighed in in support of the fact that - since this is the judging standard & apparently occurred on most or all cars (whether on the spot or in the glovebox/etc. or "missed") - that it could be a points deduction at Parade &/or at other Concours.

As several of them have said - & you too Glen - it's probably not a dealer item, since IMHO it is highly unlikely that dealers would expend 1-1.5+ hours of labor per car to remove & replace the driver's seat, carpet rail & carpet on the longitudinal, then to drill the 4-holes, the re-adhesive & replace the carpet, rail & then screw in the 4 tiny screws on the holster, then replace the seat. And where is the cost efficiency for VW-Porsche to have to produce & send out 1000s of drilling templates to all of the dealers, instead of just a few at the Karmann Plant!?

It's far more logical IMHO that they just missed some at the factory, & then just installed them screwed into the carpet alone as at least one owner posted (i.e.: NOT into the steel longitudinal at all, for those not able to follow), or stuck them in the car's glovebox/center box, or "forgot" them - as you Glen & the others have said here.

Note that my judge/expert, Paul, Pat & myself are all in our 60's & have been around 914s since the early days when they first came out in Fall 1969, & those other than I have been around PCA & other Concours with originality judged - since when all PCA events covered originality (I'm the late comer to judging at PCA Concours).

They have all suggested that the holes were drilled at the factory - or supposed to have been drilled & it installed there, but that some may have been missed - as have you Glen - so there are obviously more than "only 3 possibilities" in any case.

Any contrary opinions herein by others really will NOT matter when you get in front of the judging team at the Spokane Parade in a few weeks (&/or at any other originality based Concours) - if they choose to score on this holster item (or any others).

In the end - it's each owner's choice. Ignore the expert's info. (not my info) on this seatbelt holster/holder, & my judging/challenge process info & warnings here, at your own peril - & maybe, just maybe, the judges won't look for or deduct for this item .... or maybe they will ... it's their choice!

But if you do chose to follow the contrary advice of others here, & you do lose points - then please DO make sure to come back & report it here, & take it out on the others spouting off here! shades.gif

And if you luck out & don't get gigged for not having it - or any other originality item - then count yourself lucky - but it still is not conclusive proof that it won't be scored in the next PCA Parade, AACA, CCCA, etc. Concours originality event(s). shades.gif

Time to get busy! .... or busier! FERG.gif

FYI -

PCA Parade Rules:

Rules Links Page:
https://www.pca.org/resource-category/parad...mpetition-rules

.

Spokane Parade Registration:

http://parade2017.pca.org/registration.html

... for Concours:
http://parade2017.pca.org/Concours.html

... for Tech Quiz:
http://parade2017.pca.org/techquiz.html

.

Most of all - Have Fun There! smile.gif smilie_pokal.gif

Good Luck! beerchug.gif
Tom
///////


Tom_T
QUOTE(gms @ May 14 2017, 01:53 PM) *

I am hijacking this thread to get people to shows us what you 1970-71 car has
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=309960


Hey Glenn, I was typing when you posted this link. Good start.

However, again - this list will not affect nor influence nor change the judging standards at the Concours where originality is judged on this item - such as at the upcoming Spokane Parade, if the judging team there is looking for them to be on the early 914s - as my judge/914 expert has said.

PS - It's not a hijack, since I suggested it above anyway! biggrin.gif

beerchug.gif
Tom
///////
wndsnd
Tom,

I know this is not helpful, but.

Fuch all you concours types..... If you are making your judgements on a dealer kit, vs. original car data, you are screwy.gif
mepstein
QUOTE(wndsnd @ May 14 2017, 05:58 PM) *

Tom,

I know this is not helpful, but.

Fuch all you concours types..... If you are making your judgements on a dealer kit, vs. original car data, you are screwy.gif


And Fuch the people who are disparaging Sir Andy. If you don't like it here - leave.
yerpants
I am sure that Mr. _T smile.gif , who is a very well respected judge in his own right from what I hear, has got enough backing here to make this a concrete statement. He's probably owned many fine examples of early 914s that would lend enough weight on their own.
Tom_T
QUOTE(wndsnd @ May 14 2017, 02:58 PM) *

Tom,

I know this is not helpful, but.

Fuch all you concours types..... If you are making your judgements on a dealer kit, vs. original car data, you are screwy.gif


Geez Louise people! blink.gif

It is NOT a "dealer kit" - but a factory part which came with the seatbelts, as can be clearly seen from the pix of the NOS seatbelt kit from another member (again - NOT me nor mine!) - which thePCA judges/914 experts - yet again NOT me - have decided was factory installed, or should have been.

The 914 PET Factory Parts Manual lists the Accessories which dealers would sell under section "Main Group 0 Accessories" of the official Porsche 914 PET Parts Manual (including replacement bits for tool kits, etc.), whereas the factory fitment parts are in the respective area within the rest of the other 1-9 "Main Group" sections.

This holster/holder/retaining bar is listed in "Main Group 8 Body" under subsection "812 Seatbelts" on its pg. 002 (& not in section "0 Accessories"), & within the parts list area for the early non-retractable seatbelts up through 12/71 mfgr - & NOT within the section of various parts for the later retractable seatbelts, as Andy initially tried to claim about these being for late belts at first, in prior posts!

Look in your own 914 PET parts manual on the above noted page, for p/n: 914-803-141-10 & in the line in which this item is listed, it states 1 only (not 2 at both sides), & that it applies to 914-6/4, & it's under the -71 section of seatbelt parts - Just as my judge/914 expert said!

I believe that in the older 1970-72 era factory Manuals they used to have a diagram showing the non-retractable belts (the later 914 PET editions only have a diagram for the later retractable belts now), which early editions would probably show the holster/holder/retainer bar in the diagram, along with the early non-retractable seatbelts, as they were listed in "Section 8 Body" in older versions of the PET (& not in section "0") - before they went NLA or were superseded by the later retractable belts after 12/31/71 production (i.e.: the changeover to retractable belts was at the 2nd half of the 72 MY, as Pat G. confirmed above)..

The doubters just need to go ask a Parade Judge or content expert themselves!

Certainly from Glen's poll linked at the above post, it would seem that those 914s without them or the drilled holes are the outliers in far less numbers.

And NO yerpants, I've never owned a 70-72 914, but had many friends with them in the early days. That is why I say that I'm relaying info from another expert/judge, & rely on original owners of the 70-72 914s like Paul (70) & Pat (72).

But Thanx for the support! smile.gif

beerchug.gif
Tom
///////
Tom_T
QUOTE(mepstein @ May 14 2017, 03:10 PM) *

And Fuch the people who are disparaging Sir Andy. If you don't like it here - leave.


And you Mark, Andy, & everyone else who are slamming people for information which we have relayed on here in good faith - either from a reliable source &/or personally, really need to stop that BS, then their is no need to sheeplove.gif anybody!

Andy has been far from polite & respectful to a bunch of us who have been around 914s far longer than he or you have, & is willing to disparage a person he doesn't even know! Therefore, he got called on it by me, & eventually by others.

The really sad part about this egofest, is that Andy cannot even concede that - IF this is the way the judges at Parade Concours will look at this item - then those entering should plan to meet those judges' criteria.

This only serves to confuse those out there trying to prepare for Spokane next month, & is a big disservice to the members on here.

Instead, Andy is so dead set on trying to make it "my information" & trying to discredit me personally, & deny any other possibilities that he himself might be wrong! That is just small minded.

So NO - I don't think that any of us will leave, just cuz you want us to not stand up for ourselves, & just accept his highness as the sole & final expert, free to dole out insults to others at will! dry.gif

Bub-bye! bye1.gif
T
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SirAndy
QUOTE(Tom_T @ May 14 2017, 06:06 PM) *
The really sad part about this egofest, is that Andy cannot even concede that - IF this is the way the judges at Parade Concours will look at this item - then those entering should plan to meet those judges' criteria.

I never mentioned concours once in any of my posts.

My posts are about facts and have nothing to do with concours, especially when those concours people seem to be unwilling to look at facts when they are presented to them.

Small minded indeed, just not on my side ...
rolleyes.gif
Tom_T
QUOTE(SirAndy @ May 15 2017, 10:40 AM) *

QUOTE(Tom_T @ May 14 2017, 06:06 PM) *
The really sad part about this egofest, is that Andy cannot even concede that - IF this is the way the judges at Parade Concours will look at this item - then those entering should plan to meet those judges' criteria.

I never mentioned concours once in any of my posts.

My posts are about facts and have nothing to do with concours, especially when those concours people seem to be unwilling to look at facts when they are presented to them.

Small minded indeed, just not on my side ...
rolleyes.gif


The point is Andy, that you SHOULD mention & concede the point in regards to having them for Concours judging, since it is an accepted standard per the officials - instead of confusing the issue for those new to concours prep reading here.

My first post says that this topic is placed here in O&H for Concours purposes - as well as to avoid this very type of personal attacks barrage from you & your buddies at the general Garage discussion on this item, as well as at many others herein Andy. I think you know that, & that I asked many times for you not to confuse the issue for those prepping for Concours, & instead you followed/trolled me over to O&H here, in order to continue your arguments & put-downs from the other thread in the Garage on this item, just to press your perceived superiority over me of all things 914.

There is a big difference between stating that you disagree with a particular point or position which the concours judging officials & bodies have taken & leaving it at that - DULY NOTED - & doing a barrage of curt & nasty posts insisting that I - not the the outside Concours expert's info - is wrong, cannot be, & that it should just be ignored by everyone on here because YOU think it was a dealer option/accessory.

And you're just splitting hairs & being disingenuous to state that you never mentioned Concours, while multiple posting on here your argumentative circumstantial "facts," in a misguided attack to try to discredit me personally - rather than at least being honest enough to keep it as: "you disagree with the other outside expert's opinion." Again, duly noted, & noted, & noted - you disagree, everyone gets that you disagree - but that alone doesn't make it so.

Furthermore, I take my expert/judge's opinion on this being a standard factory part over yours, McMark's or any other naysayers on here as correct - as should any serious concours or originality restorer. This is more than a "someone says" opinion, as you have alleged in one of your attacks above on me, but from an expert who trumps you in 914 expertise!

You continue to insist that only your opinions & limited options or "possibilities" are the only ones which could possibly be true & considered, despite & avoiding all other factual documentation & evidence to the contrary.

Moreover, I did explain the proper & accepted ways that this & any & all originality items can be documented & challenged at Concours &/or to change the judging originality standards/criteria with the sponsoring organizations - but that procedure does not include screw hole evidence, polls/lists of 914s with/without, etc. now some almost 50 years later after their manufacture.

I even invited folks who find anything in accepted official Porsche documentation to the contrary to post it here - including you.

As for whether they were in fact a factory part & not a dealer add-on ....

The supporting documented facts are:

1.) Actual official Porsche Documentation/manuals list it as a factory part:

1a.) The part is listed in the PET section #8 & several other Porsche parts manuals as a factory part - NOT a dealer accessory in section #0, &

1b.) Therein that only one (1) is included (not 2, with 1 on both sides - the 2nd would be an add-on item), &

1c.) Therein that they are for 914-6/4 up to `71 or 12/71 (-71 or up to 12/71) - which includes 1st half of the 72 MY.

1d.) You yourself Andy, Glen & others have posted screenshots of these parts manuals clearing showing the above 1a-1c facts in support of they being a factory part, & countervening your own position that they were dealer options.

2.) The Holster/Holder/Retainer Bar part is NOT listed in the PET within the "Main Group 0 Accessories" section - where the Dealer sold add-on items are listed.

3.) The NOS seatbelt kit clearly included the holster within the same package as the seatbelt securing bolts - not as a separate item outside of the seatbelt parts (at Mike Fitton's ad for an NOS set of early non-retractable seatbelts).

The additional circumstantial support for this are:

4.) Glen's survey in the Garage Forum at his link provided in his post #28 above, so far shows far more 914-6/4s of the era with the part, (or screw holes) - than those lacking it - making the standard factory inclusion of the part(s) much more likely, with those missing them being factory errors or omissions.

5.) Members have posted that their cars from that era had them only screwed into the carpet, supporting that the later screwed holes during assembly may have been missed, forgotten or omitted at the factory on certain cars - similar to Glen's findings at #4 above. Stuff got missed, sloppily or misapplied or mis-installed, etc. at Karmann, Stuttgart & all other auto factories all of the time!

> A side note on evidence that this type of factory omission did indeed happen - i.e.: that this type of factory omission of some cars not having some needed mounting holes & not being done at the factory on all cars - is that my 73 & several other original owner 73's with original rear panels had no punched holes in them for the engine designation badge (i.e.: they only had the 2 early style prepunched holes for the 914 badge). Of this I am 1000% sure. So certainly the 4 drilled holes for this seatbelt holster also could have been missed too on some cars & to say that errors/omissions never occurred at the factory is just unsupportable.

6.) At almost 50 years old now - & with rust prone & hard driven sports cars, many of which could have had accidents, with one or more restorations in that almost half a century - it's hard to say that any car didn't have some sheet metal replacements, or the holes filling in (if there), etc. over that time - making it nearly impossible for a 2nd, 3rd, 4th etc. owner to know it's original state for certain.

> For example - I recall from pix which you posted quite a while back on your original 914-6 body/shell, that it had both extensive accident & rust damage when you got it. So who is to say that the long pic which McMark posted is actually original sheet metal? Section "Main Group 8 Body" of the official Porsche Factory Repair Manual shows pix of how various sections can be cut & replaced with minimal disruption & minimal evidence after-the-fact, because they stay at or close to the factory seams/joints for the most part.

While your 914-6 may indeed still be original body steel & lack the holes, that alone is not conclusive evidence that they should have been done at the factory, & that it did or should have had the seatbelt holder on it when the original owner bought it new. And is is certainly not conclusive evidence that they are dealer added options. That just is NOT a fact, as you erroneously allege.


7.) This item has been cited as an original factory part on all 914-6/4 cars during the 1970-72 MY up to 12/31/71, as consistent with the Porsche documentation noted above in #1 - as per my one buddy judge/resto/expert on 914s - & since then several more have old timer experts spoken up on here & to me privately - ALL of whom are far more reliable sources on originality & experienced with 914s since their introduction - than are you/McMark/Epstein/etc. as relative newcomers.

So I'm sorry, but your alleged "facts" are not facts, nor does your opinion overrule those true experts & the other documented proof above.

Missing screw holes almost 50 years later on a few 914s from that era just area not supportable nor conclusive "facts" - since they could have been simple factory assembly line errors or omissions.

So far your only alleged "facts" that this item is a dealer add-on option or accessory are:

A.) Your 914-6 & 914/4 has no holder nor screw holes in their longitudinals, &

B.) A small number of other subject 70-72 914-6/4s also don't have the holders, or screw holes in their longitudinals either, according to some other owners on here.

C.) You claimed that since it is called "Retaining Bar" in a questionable German-to-English translation within the PET, that it somehow "proves" it wasn't a factory part - but by what logic is that?

> Whereas, it's just possible that it started in concept as a "bar" but ended up instead being a plastic holder/holster, or that the translation is what they used even if it always was the plastic pocket holder/holster. Either way or if neither - the part's name has absolutely no bearing on whether it's a factory part or a dealer add-on. I also pointed out earlier in here that they also call the rubber gasket which sits under the side mirrors on the door as a: "Desk Pad" - so how the heck is a desk pad a proper English language usage or translation for a body gasket or seal!?

D.) You initially & erroneously claimed that they were only for the later 73-76 914s with the retractable seatbelts - which obviously would have absolutely no need for them, nor could they be used, since the retraction mechanism will just pull the belt out of the holder - minus One!

E.) You, Glen & others have posted screen shots of Porsche Parts Manuals/Listings which in fact support that they ARE indeed factory parts, & NOT dealer add-ons - minus Two!

I think that any objective, logical & reasonable person would judge that the alleged "facts" of yours above are pretty thin & only circumstantial - while the documented facts & other supporting circumstantial evidence, & outside expert opinions which I summarized above so far weigh far more heavily that they are in fact factory parts & NOT dealer add-ons.

If you really want to get at the facts to support an argument to the contrary, then use your German contacts & family to get some actual official Porsche documentation, letters, diagrams, older parts manuals, etc. to support your counter-claim that they were a dealer installed option. You said that I needed documents, which I've provided, but you yourself have provided zero documentation to the contrary, but rather have provided documentation that the were indeed factory installed parts (or should have been). So go get a dealer TSB or Instruction sheet which shows them directed to install these seatbelt holders at the dealership prior to delivery, & then you have supportable true facts!

Those are acceptable "facts" to both the true 914 experts, Concours organizations, etc. needed to change the Concours judging originality criteria. You have to provide acceptable documentation to the contrary, which categorically offsets the PET/Manuals & Parts packages, etc. noted above.

Otherwise, it's like trying to talk yourself out of a radar speeding ticket by saying to the judge in court, that both you & your buddy in the passenger seat were watching the speedometer & "swear" that you never sped - instead of providing documentation that the officer never properly tuned his radar gun - which AFAIK is the ONLY acceptable proof to get one out of a radar speeding ticket in CA & probably in most other states too. That won't fly there, nor will your spurious claims fly with the originality experts & organizations. shades.gif

I am only taking my time here to provide this info from the start - & to continue to answer your ongoing inane & spurious contentions to have some "facts" - so that others with a 70-72 (up to 12/31/71) 914-6 or /4 will not be mislead by your posts, while they are trying to properly restore &/or prepare their cars for Concours or whatever else.

However - IF & when you find actual documentation on this subject for or against it being a factory part expected to be on the 70-72 up to 12/31/71 914-6/4s - then please do post it here! shades.gif type.gif

So please do us all a favor & stop OT dead horse.gif - & just post when you have some actual documentation supporting your contention that these were dealer add-ons.

Cheers! beerchug.gif
Tom
///////
SirAndy
QUOTE(Tom_T @ May 15 2017, 01:58 PM) *

D.) You initially & erroneously claimed that they were only for the later 73-76 914s with the retractable seatbelts - which obviously would have absolutely no need for them, nor could they be used, since the retraction mechanism will just pull the belt out of the holder - minus One!

If you had taken the time to actual read my post (from 2009) you would have noted that the later retractable seat belts do have a "retaining bar" which guides the seatbelts into the retractor.
It's a metal bar that slides over the seatbelts and bolts behind the retractor.

So much for the all knowing concours judge ...
rolleyes.gif
Tom_T
QUOTE(SirAndy @ May 15 2017, 02:23 PM) *

QUOTE(Tom_T @ May 15 2017, 01:58 PM) *

D.) You initially & erroneously claimed that they were only for the later 73-76 914s with the retractable seatbelts - which obviously would have absolutely no need for them, nor could they be used, since the retraction mechanism will just pull the belt out of the holder - minus One!

If you had taken the time to actual read my post (from 2009) you would have noted that the later retractable seat belts do have a "retaining bar" which guides the seatbelts into the retractor.
It's a metal bar that slides over the seatbelts and bolts behind the retractor.

So much for the all knowing concours judge ...
rolleyes.gif


While you're correct Andy that there is either a guide bar or plate sort of piece on the retractable belt - it is in fact NOT a separate part & ALWAYS already assembled with the entire belt assembly - & NEVER separately - NOR does it have a separate part number called out for it in PET section 812's diagram nor parts list, where it sits between the two (2) parts labeled #7 in the 812 diagram for the parts list.

In 74> MYs it was changed from the earlier guide plate, to a tubular bar type piece with a completely different plastic cover for it (cover called out as #2 & shown in the 812 diagram). So it wasn't originally a bar either.

It also sits way at the top of the back wall with the retractor mechanism - & NOT down below at the longitudenal - as does the holder part being discussed here.

It is neither called out, nor given a separate part number, nor even referred to a "retainer bar" as you claimed in that 2009 post - which I did read.

You see, I DO know about all of this, because it IS an item which I have researched for my own 73 914-2.0's resto, & which early seatbelt assembly is exceedingly hard to find in NOS parts with the flat guide plate type using the smaller cover, as shown in the 812 diagram - & as per my OE ones on my car.

So not only are you still "Minus One & Two" for this early seatbelt holder part - but add "Minus 3" for the 73> part as well! shades.gif

Do you want to be a "man" & retract your ill attempted insult: "So much for the all knowing concours judge ..." beerchug.gif

.... or just continue to try to ar15.gif fighting19.gif me!!??

idea.gif I think it's just better if we "play nice" on here - don't you?

popcorn[1].gif

beerchug.gif
Tom
///////
SirAndy
QUOTE(Tom_T @ May 15 2017, 02:54 PM) *
Do you want to be a "man" & retract your ill attempted insult

This may surprise you but i'm completely comfortable with my sexuality ...
rolleyes.gif
Tom_T
QUOTE(SirAndy @ May 15 2017, 03:01 PM) *

QUOTE(Tom_T @ May 15 2017, 02:54 PM) *
Do you want to be a "man" & retract your ill attempted insult

This may surprise you but i'm completely comfortable with my sexuality ...
rolleyes.gif


But obviously not a man of good manners, morals nor ethics! shades.gif

At least whenever I've been wrong on something on here, then I admit it & go back & correct the info. I also correct any misunderstandings or misinterpretations of what I have said, so that nobody with continue to get the misinformation version.

You can't even apologize for an attempted insult when you info was wrong! dry.gif

It just shows your true colors.

You & your buddies wrote this 914world Rule in the FAQS Forum, & I believe it's good to follow it:

<snipped>
We don't like rules, but hey, you gotta have a few and we want 914World to be a friendly place where people come to chat about cars and life, so here they are.

* Don't call anyone names. Treat other members like your mother taught you - If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all.
<end snip>

FYI - if you or anyone else comes up with any actual Porsche documentation saying that this item is a dealer add-on or accessory, then I will agree that it adds new information, & will recco that folks take a copy with them &/or that they petition for a change to the judging criteria on the 70-72 914s.

I have no problem at all with doing that!

PS - In the spirit of keeping to the "treat others as you wish to be treated" adage above - I here & now apologize to you if anything I said was an insult. I don't think I did, as I did try to just keep to responding to correcting the misinformation - but then too, I was pretty irritated with the way you've treated me on here.
.... anyway - Sorry!

beerchug.gif
Tom
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SirAndy
QUOTE(Tom_T @ May 15 2017, 03:11 PM) *
FYI - if you or anyone else comes up with any actual Porsche documentation saying that this item is a dealer add-on or accessory, then I will agree that it adds new information, & will recco that folks take a copy with them &/or that they petition for a change to the judging criteria on the 70-72 914s.

How about you come up with actual Porsche documentation saying that this item was installed at the factory?

The large number of cars without mounting holes suggest otherwise ...
poke.gif
Tom_T
QUOTE(SirAndy @ May 15 2017, 04:03 PM) *

QUOTE(Tom_T @ May 15 2017, 03:11 PM) *
FYI - if you or anyone else comes up with any actual Porsche documentation saying that this item is a dealer add-on or accessory, then I will agree that it adds new information, & will recco that folks take a copy with them &/or that they petition for a change to the judging criteria on the 70-72 914s.

How about you come up with actual Porsche documentation saying that this item was installed at the factory?

The large number of cars without mounting holes suggest otherwise ...
poke.gif

dead horse.gif
r_towle
While I have no dog in this fight I will offer this observation.
This is a miguided attempt to create a standard out of a very arguable point of view by a mystery man who won't step forward and back up his claim with factual information.
This alone should create doubt in any car show that has been judged by mister mystery man.

Please don't drive this enjoyable forum down the same hostile road the 356 community went down years ago with these types of " expert" claims.
I have owned quite a few of these cars, currently I own two non retractable seat belt car and neither one has this item installed, nor any holes or evidence it ever was installed.

Picking a fight, and with only proof of an expert from back in the day is just hogwash and you should know better. Writing a wall of text does not negate that.

Rich
bulitt
It's good to be passionate about something! Anything!

But at the end of the day These little cars are just cars. All 100,000 of them.
They are not real life. Just little metal turds.

Real life is about Family, and Friends, and your health, and well being, and community.

Carry-on

If you must!


yerpants
Oh here we go again! And now we hear from the East Coast! Have you guys gone back and looked at what Tom_T has posted on this forum??? Look at all the work he has put in to this place!!! He is obviisly putting hours into researching and googling these details and typing it out. All for this community. Do you think he is just doing this for himself? Are you accusing him of self-aggrandizement?
flippa
QUOTE(yerpants @ May 16 2017, 04:11 AM) *

Oh here we go again! And now we hear from the East Coast!


huh.gif

Would you care to elaborate Skippy?
yerpants
QUOTE(flippa @ May 16 2017, 05:53 AM) *

QUOTE(yerpants @ May 16 2017, 04:11 AM) *

Oh here we go again! And now we hear from the East Coast!


huh.gif

Would you care to elaborate Skippy?


I intended no slight. I was only noticing a sudden influx of rust belters with no idea what should be original in these cars because it was probably destroyed by road salt 3 decades ago, posting in the originality forum. Don't you think that being from California and seeing these cars in actual original condition makes any fella on the West Coast more of an expert? Do you even have a running 914? And for the record, only my mom gets to call me Skippy.
altitude411
Yerpants...
"Don't you think that being from California and seeing these cars in actual original condition makes any fella on the West Coast more of an expert? "



This is an absurd statement. (Shirley) you can't be serious with this shit. dry.gif
Eric_Shea
My six (2233) had them... blink.gif
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