Engine first start, Fail.

Yesterday I made the first attempt at starting the engine since rebuild. I had put two gallons of 93 octane gas into the tank and the pump runs as it should when turning the key. I had a timer ready to perform the 20 minute cam break in.
I was arrogant enough to believe that the engine would simply start when I finally tried it. WRONG.
It caught for a few moments then died. And subsequent attempts gave no better of a response.
I had turned the engine over with the coil disconnected to build up oil pressure before attempting the start. And thought I may have run the battery down some. Checking it showed 12.56v resting and 11.44 while cranking. I connected a big boat battery with jumper cables but still no start. It turns over and fires a couple times giving of puffs of exhaust, but does not catch and keep running.
Pulled a FI hose and checked that I am getting gas, also pulled two plugs and they are wet with gas. I thought I may have flooded it so I put the battery charger on it and put it back in the garage.
This morning I tried it again and the result was the same. It fires a couple times then just cranks.
Everything is new.
Cap and rotor, points condenser plug wires etc. injectors rebuilt buy Witchhunters , static timed when I put in the distributor. All new vacuum hoses, rebuilt MPS (set to 037 specs) ECU is an unknown but it worked when ran last (in ’89) all the wiring was carefully checked when installed
Engine build is as follows.
EA 1.7 engine built into a 2056
Using the djet FI with 2.0 parts, intake runners, throttle body, air cleaner, etc.
HAM heads ported to RS+ and modified for the 2.0 runners
Raby 9590 cam

Guess I will start with rechecking the timing and go from there.

Are you getting spark?

And check that your getting fuel.
Those are the first two things to check.

Double check the cylinder head temp sensor and circuit. if you have an open circuit or partial break it will fail to start. 40+ year-old wiring is pretty brittle. Make sure your harness grounds are grounded well too. You can test the whole CHTS length from sensor to terminal 23 on the ECU easily with a continuity tester. It usually gets fried closer to the sensor itself. I had same problem on last two rebuilds.

I'd say if it caught for a moment he is getting fire. I'd double check my timing.

You may have fouled the plugs. When you primed the pump by cranking it, did you also disconnect the fuel pump relay? If not then you were dumping gas into the cylinder. Try removing all plugs, remove the fuel pump relay and then crank a few times. This will help expel some of the gas. Then try cleaning the plugs or buy a new set.

Did you try starting it a couple of degrees either way off your initial static timing?

Ansbacher

Ok

Worked on it a little more.

So first I set the engine to the O mark on the fan and checked the distributor to be sure I was on TDC on #1 Then I pulled the distributor to recheck the points and found I did NOT replace the condenser AND I had the old Rev-limiting rotor in there still. But the points were new.

So I set the points again to 0.016 and reinstalled the distributor. And static timed it to the 5 degree mark . Then I found the wire for the temp sensor under the plenum was off. ( I probably knocked it off removing the distributor) Also the when reconnecting the green wire from the points to the coil I noticed it had a couple broken strands, So I clipped it off and installed a new end. Hooked all the wires and vacuum hoses back up, got in the car, Held my breath, and turned the key…

ITS ALIVE !!!!

Since I was in the shed with limited ventilation I ran it for about 30 seconds. I had turned in the idle screw on the throttle body, not knowing where it would end up and it settled down at about 2500 rpm. It sounded good. I shut it off because I wanted to move it outside to do the cam break in,
When I move it outside I will adjust the RPMs down to about 2000 rpm for the cam break in.
And maybe put a timing light on it to see where the timing really is.
Also I ordered a new condenser and rev-limiting rotor from Pelican. So I will not get too anal about the timing until after I put those parts in.

Thanks for your suggestions..

Congratulations!

Now its starts right up but the rpms go to 3000+ and the idle speed screw on the throttle body is IN as far as it will go. the throttle cable has play in it, so that is not causing it. checked the hoses for a vacuum leak but can't find anything that is off right now.

So now I have another issue to look for.

(Edited)

Do you mean the idle air bypass screw is all the way IN? Out is going to increase idle speed (like a vacuum leak). Put that back in part way (for the time being), check timing again (it could be too far advanced), and thoroughly check for vacuum leaks, particularly a disconnected hose. If your timing is close and the idle air bypass is not all or mostly open and you still can't get below 3,000, then it's a substantial leak (like a big ol' hose unplugged) or the throttle body not seated on manifold.

But congrats on getting it running You'll find the issue.

Right .. its screwed IN, my mistake.

Took off the air filter and confirmed that the throttle plate is closed. the idle screw in the throttle body is screwed all the way in. It does affect the rpms though. when I back it out they go UP. Disconnected the AAR valve and plugged that hose going to the cold start valve. Still 3000+ When I unplug it the rpms go up more.

I agree there must be a big assed vacuum leak somewhere, I just can't find a hose off or anything yet.

Throttle body not loose, and has a new gasket on it, but right now I can't rule anything out. Its getting air from somewhere.

Disconnect and plug all the vacuum lines except for the one to the MPS then start it. If it's normal then start plugging the hoses in, one at a time until you find the culprit. If it is still idling high after you've pulled & plugged all the lines check your MPS, the gasket on the oil refill tube and injector seals.

Removed and plugged the vacuum hoses one at a time, that didn't help. I remember having to make gaskets for the cold start valve so I removed that and although those gaskets looked good I made new ones and smeared a little Indian head gasket sealer on them. - no change.
disconnected and plugged the decel valve, no change.
Next I will take your suggestion and disconnect all the vacuum hoses and plug the ports.

I checked the timing and the red mark @ 27 degrees was about 1 inch or so away (at 3000 rpm) from the notch. when I tried to bring it to the notch... Yep the RPMs increased. So I backed it off.

The MPS was rebuilt with one of the Tangerine kits and set to the 037 specs but no harm in checking it again.

It has to be a pretty big leak to be running at this rpms with the throttle plate closed. You would think it would be obvious. The plenum only has so many connections.

wouldn't a bad injector seal only affect the one cylinder?

It sounds good, no bad noises. I don't run it too long since I don't want to COOK this thing.

Think I'll take the Dogs for a walk.......

Remove all the vacuum lines except the mps.
Cover all the plenum holes with electrical tape.
Check and verify the distributor advance plates move freely with no binding from full retard to full advance. Sometimes the point screw is too long for that spot and you may have used the short one for the cover clips or advance plates. (Sorry, pull it out again)

It's either air or timing.
Sounds like air.

Besides a vacum leak which it sounds like as well....


I hope you replaced with new injectors seals and injectors checked to spec.?

Plenums are known to rust out. Did you have a good look at it before it was installed ?

I will try this next, and check the distributor parts too. Thanks

Put new injector seals in, and had injectors refurbished by Witchhunters. But maybe the seals are not sealing correctly.

And I sanded and painted the plenum myself, So should not be any holes rusted through.

These are all good suggestions and some I have thought of. I can't rule out any possibility until I solve this dilemma.

One thing I haven't checked and will look at today is if somehow the throttle plate is being sucked open some when its running. maybe the spring is not on correctly.

(Just checked and spring is holding throttle plate tight, So one thing down)

It does not seem reasonable that it could run at 3000+ rpm with the throttle plate closed.

If looking for a vacuum leak, try spraying carb cleaner on all intake components. If you hit the leak the engine tune will change.

I'm going to guess ignition. Maybe the distributor drive isn't timed right, or the plug wires are not installed right.

Do the Cam break in before you run the engine too much more. You want the engine turning about 2.5 - 3K for that anyway (IIRC).

Jake used to say to the do that cam break in the first time you got the engine to fire. As soon as you got it running just break in the cam then and there.

Zach

That was my original plan. but with the RPMs being uncontrollable and not knowing whether it was running too lean or what, I didn't want to melt the heads or seize the KB pistons.

As it was the paint was cooking off of the Triad muffler.

The rpm I remember seeing was 2000 rpm for the cam break-in, and I couldn't get the engine down to that number.

I don't have a head temp gauge right now nor do I have a AFR. gauge.

Jake has a shop full of gauges and tools and would be better able to tell if something bad was happening and shut it off before it destructed the engine. If the engine had only required a few adjustments I would have continued with the cam break-in.

I do have a Autometer wideband AFR coming in the mail in a day or two. (maybe today!) and also a Dakota digital head temp gauge, probably in a week or so. once these are installed and I can see what is really happening I will complete the cam break-in.

Its not like I will be sitting around twiddling my thumbs as I wait on parts. I just got the new condenser and rev-limiting rotor yesterday and will be again pulling the distributor to install these, check for free movement of the advance plates and do a static set on the timing.

Thanks for all your suggestions,

Zach is right do the cam break in.
3000 rpm for cam break in is fine.
20 minutes running lean with no load at 3000 rpm is fine.

Not getting the cam broken right away is bad in the long run.

It is the starting the engine that is the hardest on the cam, so each time you stop to restart to test something else you are risking the life span of your cam and lifters.

Jim

I have had a very bad experience doing a static 2000 rpm cam break in for 20 minutes. Engine temps can get very hot doing this. If you are committed to doing it static, I would recommend several shorter periods while monitoring engine temps carefully. Maybe four five minute periods with a cool down in between.

Flame suit on.

Good luck with troubleshooting.

The problem with 2L plenums isn't rust holes. Stress cracks can form on the underside, especially around one of the tubular reinforcements.
Such stress cracks may be nearly invisible even after sanding, and only open up under high manifold vacuum.

We always do cam break-in with carbs unless the FI setup was working on the same engine before the rebuild.
Diagnosing FI faults while trying to break in the camshaft can be disastrous.

Interesting Chris. If I understand you correctly you mount carbs to run the engine for the breakin and then mount the unknown FI and do the final tune??

What procedure do you use for the actual cam run in to avoid the heat of just having the car set there and run with minimal airflow?? Thanks

Yes, that way I know I can get the engine running quickly, check for oil leaks, get the timing close, and do the cam break-in without delays or letting the engine idle for any length of time.
I prefer not to start/stop the engine more than 2 or 3 times before setting the rpm up to 2500 and let it go for 20+ minutes.
I can set the rpm with the idle speed screws so I don't have to hold the throttle myself.
It's not important if the mixture is less than ideal as long as its not so rich or so lean to have trouble running. Without any load it takes very little energy to hold the elevated rpm.

The oil gets hot but the engine doesn't overheat. It's not working hard enough to really get the heads that hot, and the fan is spinning fast enough to remove that much heat effectively.

3,000 RPM is a vacuum leak. A pretty good sized one. Double-check that all of the fittings on the manifold are plugged when you're doing your "only the MPS" test. No other hoses, no open fittings on the manifold. If you have the head vents plumbed to the manifold, or the oil breather plumbed there, you need to remove those and plug them. (And the head vents should never be hooked up to the manifold anyway.)

And I agree, just run the engine at the 3000 RPM it wants to run for 20 minutes. Then start figuring out what is keeping the idle up.

--DD

Back at it again today.

Pulled the distributor checked that the advance weights were free and moved smoothly. put in the new condenser and rotor. replaced distributor static timed it at the 5 degree mark.

Disconnected and plugged all of the vacuum lines to the plenum except the MPS.

They were both vacuum hoses to the distributor, cold start valve hose that goes to AAR, Line that tees off and goes to the decal valve and the other line to the decal valve.

Turned the key and it started right up, AND again went to 3200 rpm.

Set the timing at the 27 deg mark ( it was only a 5-7 degrees off anyways ) Still running at 3200. since the air filter was off and I could access the throttle body I put my hand over the throttle body and the revs faltered a little but stayed up.

squeezed the hoses on the plenum to see if there was any change, None. Didn't notice any movement on the stubs from the plenum either.

Left it run for about 5 minutes while I did this and then chickened out and shut it down..

Next step is going to be removing the plenum.

Damn, this is frustrating. Looks like I will also need new intake runner hoses since I messed these up a little sliding them back on the intake runners to get them off of the plenum, with a big screwdriver.

Planned on hooking up the Autometer AFR to see what it was doing but they sent me the wrong unit and I have to return it.

So I don't really know what AFR its running at.

I have the same setup as you do with the cam, heads, etc. When I went to start it last summer, I had the opposite problem of not enough air. I got discouraged and took a bunch of time off from working on it. I'm just now starting back up on getting mine running. I was just curious, since you seem to have a large amount of air getting in, if maybe the MPS is leaking? I think you mentioned that it was a rebuilt unit but I've had a couple I've redone with Tangerine kits start leaking because I didn't seal it well, etc.
Maybe something else to double check anyway.....good luck!

It is important to know what ecu you have.

Are you saying that you have a 1.7 ecu when you said it ran fine back in 89?

Yes


The ECU was the same in 1973 for the 1.7 and the 2.0 it was an 037

The difference was the MPS was a 049 on the 1.7 and a 037 on the 2.0

And the TS2was a 012 on the 1.7 and a (NLA) 017 on the 2.0 with a 270 ohm ballast resistor.

All that being said

I pulled the plenum off and did a quickie plug of all of the holes then sunk it in the laundry tub and put air pressure to it. I did expect to find some leaks around where I duct taped the holes shut but I was looking for a new leak.

And I found it...

As others had mentioned it is leaking around one of the tubular supports that go through the middle of the plenum. one of the top ones. I expected to find a gaping crack but until you put air to it you can't see it.

Now I have to figure out how to fix it.. With my welding skills I will probably burn a hole through it so I was thinking either trying to sweat some solder in there or JB weld.
Unless someone has a good 2.0 plenum they would like to offer up...

Of course I will test this one before I put it on...

I like solder better, but JB weld will work.

Went with the JB weld.

It looks like these plenums were put together with the support pieces being separate and added when the top and bottom of the plenum was welded together. looking inside the support piece you can see a ring about 3/16 - 1/4 down on the tops and bottoms (sorry no picture) mine was leaking from that connection. I cleaned it up with a little stone in the dremel and spread some JB weld around in there. I did both support pieces top and bottom, even though only one was leaking.

This was the culprit

Click to view attachment


Then got some of those rubber freeze plugs to plug the holes to the intake runners and just used pieces of hose with bolts and such to plug the rest of the vacuum ports.

Then another dunk in the laundry tub of water , putting air pressure to it. NO leaks from the plenum, but a few bubbles from around the bolts I had used to plug the hoses. Then the Duct tape I had used to seal the top blew off of where the throttle body mounts.

This gave me some confidence in the repair, but thought another test was in order. (since I bought those rubber plugs I may as well use them)

Cut a gasket with no hole and bolted the throttle body down to hold it. Then hooked the mity vac pump up and drew 10 in of vacuum.

Click to view attachment

It held vacuum for over 5 minutes, although it did slowly leak down, probably from one of the numerous plugs and connections I had made.

I am confident enough in this to say it is repaired. In operation this plenum will never be required to hold a sealed vacuum, and the MPS will adjust for any minuscule amount of air that may leak from the various other connections.

It is a lot of extra work but I am happy it isn't something I did wrong when building this engine, OR something that I should have foreseen.

Now I just have to wait on the new gaskets to put everything back together. If it was not for this I believe it would have just started and only required a touch of tuning to run good.

I bought this plenum off of ebay and can only imagine the headache it must have caused the PO, May even have been the reason another teener owner changed over to carbs.

I will update this when everything is back together and thanks to all who made suggestions on things to check.

Back from a little vacation to OBX, my new intake tubes and gaskets were in the mail when I came home.

Put it all back together with the plenum repaired with JB weld I expected the best.

Well, it started right up, and again went to 3000+

But this time I let it run to finish the cam brake in. Set the timer and while it was running I started pulling and plugging vacuum lines again. most had No effect. but when I pulled and plugged the line from the throttle body to the dizzy the rpms increased so I plugged that one back on.

Then I tried spraying starting ether around the connections and noticed a little stumble at the throttle body, I put the new gasket on dry so maybe that was leaking a little. also sprayed around the intake runnners to the head and got a definite stumble on the driver side. I just had that off. maybe the gasket didn't settle right there, Its hard to get to the bottom bolt in the middle.

Also when I depressed the clutch the rpms would go up considerably, So I guess the clutch is releasing, at least.

After 15 min I shut it off and when I went to start it again.... NO buzz from the fuel pump..

So of course it won't start now.

Damn this sucks, you would think that I stole a backpack full of rocks from Pele.

Now track down the fuel pump problem.

Checked the easy things first. fuse on relay plate is good and power is there. also switched the relays but fuel pump still doesn't run.

Where does the power come from that runs the pump for a few seconds ??

My fuel pump is front mounted and the wires run through the cabin, so I think I will put a couple spade connecters in line there and run power to the fuel pump to see if it will run. better than pulling the tank.

Then I get to remove the intake system again.

I need a vacation from this thing...

you can't do it now with a busted fuel pump... After you found the leak in the plenum, did you try covering the throttle body with your hand again? Did that have any effect?

You found a leak on at least one intake runner, and at the throttle body. Both of those make sense, and are easy to fix.

For the throttle body make sure the mating surfaces are CLEAN. You can use a very thin smear of RTV or anaerobic gasket sealer on that seal. Key here is thin. Like the kind of thin that covers the part, but only just covers the part, and does not squish out boogers when you tighten it down. Same with the intake runners, though I suspect a bent runner or plenum pipe is to blame there.

Also, I bet CASH MONEY that you throttle cable is wrapped around your clutch cable, and when you press in the clutch you are also opening your throttle a little. Very common.

Zach

Agreed with all of the above.

D-jet runs the pump the following way:
The ECU sees the "key is on" signal from the ignition switch, by way of the relay board and the "power supply" relay on the relay board. (See your relay board diagram from Haynes or Pelican for which is which.) When it sees the power go from "off" to "on", it will ground a wire that connects to one of the pins on the fuel pump relay, closing that relay and sending power from a fuse on the relay board to the pump.

So, you need to make sure that the ECU is seeing power. You need to make sure that the correct fuse on the relay board (I forget which but you can trace the circuit on the diagram or just check both) is good. And you need to make sure that the relay closes and that you get power on the pump wires.

And of course, make sure the pump's ground connection is good....

--DD

On the cable issue, normally I would have taken that bet and been counting my money ahead of time, But I thought I better check it anyways.

Well I know the cables were run correctly as I had checked them with a mirror, But when I removed the throttle body and there was slack in the cable the throttle cable fouled on the clutch clevis. So you win this one.

One down.

Next the fuel pump. I cut the wires in the cabin going to the fuel pump and installed spade connectors then I was able to power the fuel pump separately and happily it did run. both of the wires going back into the harness are shorted or grounded. one IS the ground and the other is the power to the fuel pump. So my ground is good.

Also tried starting it with the fuel pump jumpered it would not start.

Checked the CHT and it showed 1260 ohms at the 90 degrees in the shed plus the 270 ohms of the resistor I had installed for a total of 1530 ohms. I don't know what the head temp is though because of the outside temp and the fact that it had just run.

Power to the coil with key on.

Power to the fuse on the relay panel, fuse is good,

Power to pin 30 on the fuel pump relay, When I jump 30 to 87 the fuel pump runs. switched relays again no change.

Something is not triggering the relay

How can I tell if the ECU is getting power?

Checked all the fuses under the dash and all seem good, didn't test them though. but I had cleaned them before. Something else to look at again



Click to view attachment

In desperation I started unplugging and reconnecting everything and turning the key after each one. when I hit the 3 connector plug at the distributor and turned the key

I heard the fuel pump buzz. turning the key farther and it started. WHEW .

Still running at 3000+ rpm but at least its running.

I just wanted to quit but something kept sucking me back in, my eyes crossed from looking at wiring diagrams.

I don't understand why it was running at all if this was the problem.

somehow just coming here and posting the problems gave me a break and was sort of cathartic.

Well folks back to our regularly scheduled programming of hunting down vacuum leaks.

again thanks Vacca and Dave for jumping in with possible solutions.

That shouldn't affect the fuel pump. You likely have a flaky wire somewhere, possibly one of the ones that carries power to the ECU.

Perhaps a Bowlsby FI wiring harness is in your future?

--DD

Fixed the vacuum leak on the drivers side intake runners and throttle body gasket. used a thin smear of the black RTV.

So it starts and has an adjustable idle.

Finally.


Also after shutting it down when finished making a few adjustments, again the fuel pump will not buzz. May have been a fluke with the plug at the dizzy. it may be a wiring problem that just shows up when its hot. so I get to trouble shoot that for a while.

Or a new harness

(Addendum) Found that the power relay was intermittently failing. I had been concentrated on the fuel pump relay. By using the fuel pump troubleshooting list found on J Bowlsby's site, I discovered the problem.