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Full Version: What class did the 914/6 GT run prior to 1973
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jmz
anyone know?

I run vintage with my local club and they put me in FIA so I run against the big American iron, 911 RSR and some other purpose built cars.

I think it might fit better in B Production...

Thoughts?

it is a twin plug 2.5 GT spec car.
brant
It didn't race in scca in the gt form.
It was a 2.0/6 without gt flares in scca

I don't think it raced fia with anything other than a 2.0

The 2.5 was an imsa motor

It may have raced in a rally or hill climb with a 2.5 but most vintage clubs recognize scca rules, fia, or occasionally imsa (but probably newer than 1973 with imsa)
naro914
In my understanding...HSR (or SVRA, can't remember which) recently decided that the 2.5 liter version of the 914/6 GT would run with the big boys. John Forbes here in NC ran with more "like" cars since forever, and just this past year they put his 2.5 GT car in with the big muscle cars, RSR's etc. For whatever reason, they have an issue with this spec car in vintage...John's a long time racer with them and is considering being done with it all because of this...and all the politics...
MikeSpraggi
I run with VRG (Vintage Racer Group) on the east coast. We're all there just to be safe and have fun. They are pretty good with their classifications. They just changed the spec for the classes this season, but we're still the same racers, with the same cars running multiple classes in our run groups.

I have a 2.4L 914 and my new classification is, DPv - Production sports and GT cars through 1972, generally under 2700cc. Our run group usually has Mustangs, Corvettes, Camaros, Ford GT40s, Jags.....even the occasional CanAm car. I don't expect to win overall, however I try to do well within my class.

Some of the racers also race with HSR and SVRA and vice versa. I just enjoy vintage racing and don't need to get so caught up with who I'm on the track with in VRG. However, I have run with another group and a couple of us teeners asked to be moved down a class because we were getting run over by the really big boys in a big way. That really wasn't any fun at all.
brant
QUOTE(naro914 @ Jun 6 2017, 07:44 PM) *

... For whatever reason, they have an issue with this spec car in vintage...


My guess is that they are holding more to the actual 1972 rules of motor/specifications of how they the cars actually raced in the rules of those years.
Svra is pushing authenticity and their "gold medallion" program with trans-am and others...

As all of these vintage cars become more valuable, it's a good business decision
brant
sorry I'm rambling...
here is the train of thought I followed:

SVRA hired Steve Earl onto their strategic team a year ago

I'm guessing that they would love the vision of building a series of prestigious events (in the mold of the Monterey Historics)

they have already for 2 years been pushing that and are really trying to build up an Indianapolis feature this year, and the Sonoma event for a couple of years, making them much more exclusive

my guess is that the big money would love the exclusiveness of bringing out the very rare and authentic cars to a traveling road show of higher level spectator events.

and spectator tickets are a huge future source of income...

so I predict they will continue to tighten up some of the rules and try to draw crowds with exclusive cars that are more and more authentic.

the gold medallion cars are guaranteed entry to any of their exclusive events already if they receive gold medallion status
naro914
Brant
I suspect you are correct.
However...(not disagreeing with you, disagreeing with SVRA) there WERE 914's that ran in IMSA with 2.5 liter engines through the late 70's. So they DO have real racing history. Heck...you can run a 1 year old Porsche Cup Car!! How is that "Vintage"??

the thing is...they still let these 914's run, but put them in a group where they get run over.
jmz
So I think I'm hearing that I should simply just run where they put me and enjoy this fun-mobile.

The car can hang with some of the shelby mustangs and corvettes and they are acutally fun to run with...We run group 1 with A productiion, A sedan/Trans Am, A Sports Racing, B Production and lastly FIA/IMSA guidance. I'll never be able to be a front runner unless I go hog wild crazy $$ and then probably not anyway.

I'm not overly concerned just looking for some data as I kind of thought the 914/6 2.5 GT may have had standing to run in B Production.

Cheers,

JZ
naro914
Yup....
For example: me racing Huey at the Hawk Vintage race - Road America.

slivel
VARA has added some classes. GTL - up to 2 liter, GTU - up to 3 liter, GTO - over 3 liter.
I.6 GT CLASSES (Newly Added)
Provisional Rules for IMSA, FIA, Trans Am “GT” Cars
This Group consists of select GT Sports Cars and Sedans as raced up to 1999. Such as IMSA, FIA-GT,
Trans Am, SCCA GT classes, and other professional race cars as raced in recognized pre-2000 racing
series. These cars are prepared as all out race cars with tube or semi-tube chassis. We anticipate any car
of this type eligible for SVRA Group 10 will be welcome at VARA.
All cars must have been built or modified so as to compete in a recognized pre year 2000 racing series.
Some exceptions may be made upon specific approval of VARA. It is the responsibility of the competitor to
identify the series the car competed in and prepare it accordingly.

They also have have a new catch all class:
J.11 CR CLUB RACING CLASS (Newly Added)
J11.A This group will be comprised of cars that do not fit VARA’s regular vintage eligibility rules, but are properly prepared race cars.
brant
QUOTE(naro914 @ Jun 7 2017, 08:31 AM) *

Brant
I suspect you are correct.
However...(not disagreeing with you, disagreeing with SVRA) there WERE 914's that ran in IMSA with 2.5 liter engines through the late 70's. So they DO have real racing history. Heck...you can run a 1 year old Porsche Cup Car!! How is that "Vintage"??

the thing is...they still let these 914's run, but put them in a group where they get run over.



Bob, I agree... I know they ran in IMSA with that 2.5 motor.
but what I don't know is what year that started.
I have the 1976 imsa rules, and the 2.5 was legal then

I'm almost positive that did not start back prior to 1972 though
I would guess maybe 1975 -ish... but definitely not 1972

so its tricky with rules that changed every year
the original poster may get to argue he is an imsa car based out of 1975 (if the club he is pursuing even accepts imsa 1975-1976) But then he would still get placed with the RSR's and other 1976 sheet metal.

I'm almost positive that in 1972 there were no 2.5L 914's running in a recognized sanctioning body like FIA, SCCA, IMSA

I know that the FIA gt cars were 2.0
I know that scca C production cars back in 1972, were also 2.0 discplacement

the problem is that the 2.5 motor didn't exist until later years (IMSA) so the drive train that is in the car is just not a legal 1972 drive train
brant
QUOTE(naro914 @ Jun 7 2017, 08:31 AM) *

Brant
I suspect you are correct.
However...(not disagreeing with you, disagreeing with SVRA) there WERE 914's that ran in IMSA with 2.5 liter engines through the late 70's. So they DO have real racing history. Heck...you can run a 1 year old Porsche Cup Car!! How is that "Vintage"??

the thing is...they still let these 914's run, but put them in a group where they get run over.



Bob, I agree... I know they ran in IMSA with that 2.5 motor.
but what I don't know is what year that started.
I have the 1976 imsa rules, and the 2.5 was legal then

I'm almost positive that did not start back prior to 1972 though
I would guess maybe 1975 -ish... but definitely not 1972

so its tricky with rules that changed every year
the original poster may get to argue he is an imsa car based out of 1975 (if the club he is pursuing even accepts imsa 1975-1976) But then he would still get placed with the RSR's and other 1976 sheet metal.

I'm almost positive that in 1972 there were no 2.5L 914's running in a recognized sanctioning body like FIA, SCCA, IMSA

I know that the FIA gt cars were 2.0
I know that scca C production cars back in 1972, were also 2.0 discplacement

the problem is that the 2.5 motor didn't exist until later years (IMSA) so the drive train that is in the car is just not a legal 1972 drive train


its that old saying...
"Read the Rules, First"
and use a motor combo that was legal for the year you want to fit into
jmz
QUOTE(brant @ Jun 7 2017, 01:25 PM) *

QUOTE(naro914 @ Jun 7 2017, 08:31 AM) *

Brant
I suspect you are correct.
However...(not disagreeing with you, disagreeing with SVRA) there WERE 914's that ran in IMSA with 2.5 liter engines through the late 70's. So they DO have real racing history. Heck...you can run a 1 year old Porsche Cup Car!! How is that "Vintage"??

the thing is...they still let these 914's run, but put them in a group where they get run over.




I know that the FIA gt cars were 2.0
I know that scca C production cars back in 1972, were also 2.0 discplacement

the problem is that the 2.5 motor didn't exist until later years (IMSA) so the drive train that is in the car is just not a legal 1972 drive train




In truth the rules were at minimum bent back when these cars were new. I'm betting that legal or not some maybe many of the 914/6 GT cars would have been running a 1970-72 2.5 litre 911 ST type motor.
jmz
QUOTE(naro914 @ Jun 7 2017, 10:50 AM) *

Yup....
For example: me racing Huey at the Hawk Vintage race - Road America.





Nice video... only watched the start but will watch the rest later. Strange, strange, strange to see that modern white BMW in the mix.
brant
QUOTE(jmz @ Jun 7 2017, 01:37 PM) *

QUOTE(brant @ Jun 7 2017, 01:25 PM) *

QUOTE(naro914 @ Jun 7 2017, 08:31 AM) *

Brant
I suspect you are correct.
However...(not disagreeing with you, disagreeing with SVRA) there WERE 914's that ran in IMSA with 2.5 liter engines through the late 70's. So they DO have real racing history. Heck...you can run a 1 year old Porsche Cup Car!! How is that "Vintage"??

the thing is...they still let these 914's run, but put them in a group where they get run over.




I know that the FIA gt cars were 2.0
I know that scca C production cars back in 1972, were also 2.0 discplacement

the problem is that the 2.5 motor didn't exist until later years (IMSA) so the drive train that is in the car is just not a legal 1972 drive train




In truth the rules were at minimum bent back when these cars were new. I'm betting that legal or not some maybe many of the 914/6 GT cars would have been running a 1970-72 2.5 litre 911 ST type motor.



I have the print out of the full FIA spec sheets from the 914GT
trust me the FIA did not bend the rules.
every little nut and bolt was covered... those lemans' cars were 2.0

I think IMSA was loose with rules... but when the cars were actively campaigned new, they weren't bending the rules at the time.... once the cars became non-competitive and old... they were probably bent

brant
naro914
Brant, Just curious because I honestly don't know much about vintage classes/racing...what is the magic about 1972? You keep bringing that year up as a defining year.

??
brant
QUOTE(naro914 @ Jun 7 2017, 03:27 PM) *

Brant, Just curious because I honestly don't know much about vintage classes/racing...what is the magic about 1972? You keep bringing that year up as a defining year.

??


Most of the vintage clubs use it as a cut off year for eligibility

A few use older years. A few use newer years.
But 1972 is the most common year used for vintage clubs and I'm assuming that is why the original thread was looking for rules prior to 73
jmz
out of curisoity, Does anyone know of a good forum that is specifically dedicated to vintage racing?

Thanks for all the input to my original question as well.

Cheers,

JZ
gms
The grouping of the 914 is based on the level of preparedness and the prejudices of the race sanctioning body.

In the early 1970s when the 914 raced it was in the under 2.0L or GT class of the FIA. FIA categorized automobiles by the displacement of the engine and allowed performance type modifications if 500 cars were built as such. IMSA generally supported the same rules as FIA with a little more leeway on modifications. The lower class GT car were limited to 2.5L in 1971 and increased to 3.0L by 1987 after which the 914 was disallowed.

The SCCA is a totally different animal, they feared their events becoming a Porsche show so they categorized cars in a more performance based class system (such as the new IMSA). The 2.0L 914/6 was pitted again the 2.4L Datsun 240Z in the C-Production class and on the high speed tracks (including the championship at Road Atlanta) the Datsuns prevailed.

It has been my experience that the vintage groups prefer the performance classes and not the more logical engine displacement categories so we suffer racing dragsters that park it in the corners and ruin our momentum... so get used to it or buy a vintage Corvette or Mustang.
jmz
just reviewed the SVRA rules. I'm guessing I'll be group 10... Possibly 12.

I won't run with them much but would like to do the COTA race.
gms
Do you have pictures and build out of your car?
Some organizations have you fill out a specification sheet to figure out which class you belong in.
gms
Does the engine have a 66mm crank, if not that could be a problem.
70.4mm crank is not acceptable to some.
gms
I have fought this fight, no where in the rules (1971) does it specify that the engine should have a 66mm stroke and the flares must only be "aesthetically acceptable" so not just the stock factory flares (as some require).

Click to view attachment
brant
QUOTE(jmz @ Jun 9 2017, 01:01 PM) *

just reviewed the SVRA rules. I'm guessing I'll be group 10... Possibly 12.
I won't run with them much but would like to do the COTA race.



that's a great track... great event.
I'm able to get into group 8.... its still pretty dam fast... I get blown away with my mild 2.0 twin plug

There are quite a few IMSA spec 2.5 cars running group 6
you might be placed there.
but Frank Beck is in group 6 with a 914/6.
so no offense... you won't win any trophies against Frank. He is an amazing driver with an equally amazing car.

rumors on that car are: 1600lbs, with 296hp at the wheels... from a twin plug 2.5
there is a reason he can out race modern 911 gt3's

SVRA is very strict about tires.
they will not only check your tires at tech
they will check on grid every single session
I argued with them over hoosiers...... they told me to not even tow down if I didn't buy toyo's before the event
gms
QUOTE(brant @ Jun 9 2017, 02:50 PM) *

but Frank Beck is in group 6 with a 914/6.
so no offense... you won't win any trophies against Frank. He is an amazing driver with an equally amazing car.

Sometime take a look at Frank's car and you will feel humbled as a driver pray.gif
jmz
QUOTE(brant @ Jun 9 2017, 02:50 PM) *

QUOTE(jmz @ Jun 9 2017, 01:01 PM) *

just reviewed the SVRA rules. I'm guessing I'll be group 10... Possibly 12.
I won't run with them much but would like to do the COTA race.



that's a great track... great event.
I'm able to get into group 8.... its still pretty dam fast... I get blown away with my mild 2.0 twin plug

There are quite a few IMSA spec 2.5 cars running group 6
you might be placed there.
but Frank Beck is in group 6 with a 914/6.
so no offense... you won't win any trophies against Frank. He is an amazing driver with an equally amazing car.

rumors on that car are: 1600lbs, with 296hp at the wheels... from a twin plug 2.5
there is a reason he can out race modern 911 gt3's


SVRA is very strict about tires.
they will not only check your tires at tech
they will check on grid every single session
I argued with them over hoosiers...... they told me to not even tow down if I didn't buy toyo's before the event


I visited with Frank a the last event. I was amazed at how quick his car was both around the track and on the straights!
jmz
QUOTE(gms @ Jun 9 2017, 02:23 PM) *

Do you have pictures and build out of your car?
Some organizations have you fill out a specification sheet to figure out which class you belong in.



I thnik the major problems I will have are the 930 brakes, what some might call a semi-tube frame and probably a few other details. ...not sure about the crank fire but I do have a proper marelli twin plug distributor on the shelf that I suppose I could install. The photos of the car in Green are older but all that I have on this lap top...same setup though. This GT has I think what are called nurburgring flares so I've got some extra room out back. ...I've been running 16x10s on all four corners but the pic shown here is the 15" fuchs/minilite setup.

Click to view attachment





Click to view attachment Click to view attachment
Cracker
Glenn,

I hope you are well Sir! I can assure you, some of our "Historic" events have the old muscle cars doing anything but "parking in the corners". A muscle car at the limit is a scary thing to witness; a 914, not so much. Amazing little cars our teeners are...sorry to disagree with your assessment but it just has not universally been my experience and observation.

T
gms
QUOTE(Cracker @ Jun 10 2017, 11:08 AM) *

Glenn,

I hope you are well Sir! I can assure you, some of our "Historic" events have the old muscle cars doing anything but "parking in the corners". A muscle car at the limit is a scary thing to witness; a 914, not so much. Amazing little cars our teeners are...sorry to disagree with your assessment but it just has not universally been my experience and observation.

T

Tony,
I am good and I hope you are doing well. still have not gotten to FL but I will definitely visit on the way home.

Perhaps I painted with too broad a brush
SOME are parking in the corners and it ruins your momentum...frustrating!
biggrin.gif
brant
QUOTE(gms @ Jun 10 2017, 03:09 PM) *

QUOTE(Cracker @ Jun 10 2017, 11:08 AM) *

Glenn,

I hope you are well Sir! I can assure you, some of our "Historic" events have the old muscle cars doing anything but "parking in the corners". A muscle car at the limit is a scary thing to witness; a 914, not so much. Amazing little cars our teeners are...sorry to disagree with your assessment but it just has not universally been my experience and observation.

T

Tony,
I am good and I hope you are doing well. still have not gotten to FL but I will definitely visit on the way home.

Perhaps I painted with too broad a brush
SOME are parking in the corners and it ruins your momentum...frustrating!
biggrin.gif



It happens all the time.
Not all. Some. Especially with mustangs
jmz
QUOTE(brant @ Jun 10 2017, 09:08 PM) *

QUOTE(gms @ Jun 10 2017, 03:09 PM) *

QUOTE(Cracker @ Jun 10 2017, 11:08 AM) *

Glenn,

I hope you are well Sir! I can assure you, some of our "Historic" events have the old muscle cars doing anything but "parking in the corners". A muscle car at the limit is a scary thing to witness; a 914, not so much. Amazing little cars our teeners are...sorry to disagree with your assessment but it just has not universally been my experience and observation.

T

Tony,
I am good and I hope you are doing well. still have not gotten to FL but I will definitely visit on the way home.

Perhaps I painted with too broad a brush
SOME are parking in the corners and it ruins your momentum...frustrating!
biggrin.gif



It happens all the time.
Not all. Some. Especially with mustangs


It's happened to me many times... I'll give a point by in the straights for a corvette or mustang but often don't receive the same courtesy in the corners.

gms
so as not to hijack...watch this
Mustang
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