just got Gooding's 914 book (Enthusiast's Guide, 2016), which has some interesting historical stuff on the 916 & GT cars;

it prompts this question:
(which probably requires the knowledge of you few 914 folks with Germany roots or current contacts to those who worked at Zuffenhausen in the '69-71 time period)

When did the factory begin development of the 916 variant?

i.e., start on the design of the different body components & chassis improvements, and decide on the powertrain, etc??

and when were the first prototyped "new" components begun & finished for trial fit on the the prototype chassis?

(and where were they made? (?-Werks-1? - or ?)

Who was responsible for the decision to do the 11 finished cars for the Paris show (October 1971)?
(edit update: looking at http://916.dingianni.org/Info/, we see that 4 916s were finished & gone to new owners prior to that Paris Show date, so Gooding's statement is a bit misleading)

and who decided to kill 'em?

inquiring minds want to know

TIA

Well, the first 916 had a regular 914-6 VIN which is a early '71
914.143.0195

http://www.914club.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=437219

Interesting questions Larry.

I look forward to seeing some of the other answers upcoming, in addition to Andy's on #1 above.

IIRC the welded steel roof of the 916 was a stiffness carryover from the 914-6GT racers, but don't recall where I read that before (i.e.: from which 914 history book).

Cheers!
Tom
///////

according to the Gooding book , the GT had a "steel reinforced top"
(- first time i have ever seen that stated, but it may always have been in plain sight, eh?)

I believe i actually have that GT "steel reinforced top"
"On Oct 5, 2010, LarryM wrote:
> Guys - I recently discovered an interesting difference between the top that was fitted to my car in Germany and "standard" 914 tops that we are all familiar with
>
> the discovery came when i recently decided to replace the rear & side seals on my GT top and to also seal & prep a USA 914-4 top for casual uses
>
> i drilled a couple pilot holes to help locate the new rubber
>
> I discovered that there is a metal insert perimeter frame sandwiched into the fiberglass on my GT top
>
> more drilling revealed that the USA top has no such metal perimeter inside it,
>
> and I noticed that the Germany GT top is much heavier than the USA top,
>
> my Germany GT top weighs 22 lb - the usa top weighs 15 lb
> my Germany GT top is thicker - fiberglass averages 1 mm thicker at all points

> So I am wondering if this top was an early solution to adding stiffness for racing, or a prototype for the 916, before they decided to weld steel tops to the 916 (or both?) - [i]it is quite clearly molded the same way as the common 914-4 tops
>
> - Dworazik - who "built" my car, had Werks-1 insider access to the other 916 pieces which he installed on the car, so maybe this top was designed and molded for the GT's as a competition piece ???"[/i]

uh,oh: now i need to plow thru the "Info-Sports-Purposes" to see if it was ID'd as a competition component

Larry - you have a very cool car.

Larry,

The folks who own (owned) any of those 916s may also be another source for the questions which posed, since most serious collectors typically do a lot of research on & about their cars. .... it's a disease!


Tom
///////

OK - so the 916 parts were clearly done & available for build before Feb 1971 -

good to know - sort of suggests the parts were prototyped during mid-1970 and that the concept was hatched very early in 1970

Here are Two Pictures of a Factory Brace (been chasing it for years!)

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and a similar Brace on the Brumos IMSA Championship Car

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and here is the A Pillar Brace that is needed ( Nurburgring 84 Hour Car)

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the 914 in general was "Piëch's baby" - so maybe he made ALL the decisions ?

more on the incidence of the 916 concept:

various sources say the 916 was a potential answer to the Ferrari Dino produced from 1968 (206 GT & 246 GT) to 1976. .... an attempt by Ferrari to offer a relatively low-cost sports car. .... as a direct competitor to the 911

Dino 1974 price - $13,895 - $14,510 - - (today Average Auction Sale: $284,000)
1971 Porsche 911 Price: $6,400 - $9,400 (Average Auction Sale: $73,214)
1970 Porsche 914/6 Original Price: $6,000

so if the Dino came to market in '68 as a competitor to the 911, the idea to market a 916 variant seems to have arisen shortly after?

- perhaps as soon as 1969 when the first 914s were rolling off the line and the GT racers were a work-in-progress?

somehow "low cost" got lost in the marketing vs production decisions -

it can be instructive here to re-read "Life & Death on the Corporate Battlefield" (1987)

OK that shoots down my theory about my car's perimeter reinforced top as a race car component - what i have is a "one-off" that seems to have come out of a factory mold

no mention any top reinforcements appear in the Info for Sports Purposes 1972 publication

- poked around on Armando's site & apparently the "roof reinforcement" was not of any interest in anyone's photo-shoot documentation of the GT's

- the search continues

Installing the roof brace on a GT at Porsche ...


NOTE: This one seems to be welded, not bolted

Excellent!

- i tho't that one above looked decidedly more like a period racer mod -

That 'A-pillar brace' is of interest. Anyone know if the 916s had them? (And/or Ferry's 914/8).

First issue of 000 had a long article on the two 914-8's. I bet Pete Stout would have more info on the 916's as well.

I know he lurks around here- maybe he'll chime in.

Get the second Carrera RS book
It has a good sized chapter on the 916s with excellent information !

HTH
Dennis

Price killed the 916 from a marketing side - it would have cost 911S money (iirc, $12-14K USD) and out performed it. Much like hot boxster/cayman of today, Porsche wouldn't have the entry model outperforming the 911!

Be sure to read the "Excellence was expected" if not already. Can't recall off hand what was gleaned back in the "recent history" when this book first came out in the 1970s.

ah, i never figured a book on 911 RS's would be worth checking out for 914-related info

at current prices on Amazon $722 - doubt i'll ever see one
https://www.amazon.com/Carrera-RS-Thomas-Gr...r/dp/3950491112

- poked around some more on Armando's site & apparently the "steel reinforced roof " was not of interest in anyone's photo-shoot documentation of the GT's - maybe they did not all exhibit it?

when i started racing the car with SCCA in the early '90s, it was a GCR requirement to have a removable top "bolted on" which may be an artifact of this "feature" - my solution was to run without a top (i know, i know ... more aero drag... only a problem if you are going REALLY FAST, or less than 40mph in the rain)

anyway - i think i have accumulated enuf info at this point to satisfy my original quest regarding the time-line of the 916-specific components production - enuf evidence to justify why i have 'em on my car

- my one-off reinforced smooth roof is just an anomaly that nobody save the period craftsmen at Werks-1 will be able to explain - and it may be the only one in existence today?

Thanks to everyone

It was Ferdinand Piëch early in 1971, he is one of the most underrated members of the family.
One popular misconception is that they were reject 914/4 bodies, this is NOT true the Karmann numbers indicate that they were late 1971 914/6 chassis.
The Prototype (Brutus) was just restored at AA with help from Steve Gaglione.


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This is interesting, i wonder if the original molds for the front and rear bumpers from Baur survived somewhere?

Hey Glen,

Didn't they recently show "Brutus" at Amelia earlier this year or 2016?

I thought I read somewhere that it won some award at Amelia.

IIRC they were intended to be priced higher than the $12-14K noted above - at $16000 in 1973 dollars, which was maybe around $250,000 today with inflation - which would be a hard sell for a top dog Boxster/Cayman even today.

The 916s did have all leather interior & quite a few other upgrades over a fully optioned 914-6 - beyond just the engine & chassis improvements, but as noted above - it competed with their top dawg 911S, & may have even out-sold them if given the chance - assuming they could squelch the NARP tag!


Tom
///////

some have leather, some have fabrics

Wasn't that leather interiors with fabric seat inserts Wolfgang?

I thought that the base material was leather interior, with either leather or fabric seat inserts - but with none planned to be offered with the vinyl leatherette options for same insert options (as of prior to 916 production cancellation of course).


Tom
///////

No way would the 916 outsell the 911. Porsche could hardly get the 914-6's off the dealer lots.
$16,000 in '73 would be about $91,000 today
*dollar times inflation calculator.

I stand corrected: $93,597.70 using the calculator below

http://www.in2013dollars.com/1972-dollars-...17?amount=16000

... or $95,422.21 using the compounded actual inflation rates (not CPI Factor), with the 1.10% estimated rate for 2016 & 2% for 2017.

But then, that's assuming you accept the Fed's stated rates & CPI, which are known to significantly understate the true rate of inflation, in order to curb CPI based labor & government benefit costs.

Most economists whom I know & under whom I studied for my MBA in Urban Land Economics feel that the actual rate of price increases is more like double or more of what is stated, resulting is an actual value "thumbnail" erosion factor of 1/2 per decade - or double the price per decade +/-.

This is partly due to things like surreptitious price increases sneaking by the CPI price checkers, when a product is introduced in a new smaller size for almost as much money, then later the larger & lower cost per unit priced one is withdrawn. A good example is what we used to pay for a 1/2 gallon of ice cream last decade vs. the now common 1.5 quart size - the change to which was an effective 25% increase in that year at that point alone.

Another damping factor is items which are held out of inflation calculations because they're said to be "too volatile" (translation: would make real inflation much higher) - such as oil & gasoline prices. Using my SoCal gas prices as an example - my local best price (not average nor highest price) for Regular ran $1.00/gal+/- in 1999-2000, then ran up to $4.00-5.00/gal+/- by 2005-06, & is now about $3.00-3.50/gal+/- today - making 400-500% over 6 years & 300-350% over all 17 years - & certainly NOT 1-3% per year!

Multiply that by millions of other products, & your dollar has devalued by far more than the stated "official" CPI or inflation rate.

Y'all can think of that the next time you ask for a raise!

So I used my thumbnail of about doubling every decade, compounded for the $250K+/-.

I sincerely doubt that they could produce & sell a 916 today - with Porsche's typical profit margin - for only $95K+/-. JMHO!


Tom
///////

Don't forget... the DM was getting less and less valuable and that plus OPEC hurt sales of many "performance" cars in the day. that said..

Cayman GT4 goes for $100K, think of it as the 916 spiritual successor, what with all its 911 and cup car parts

You're off there by quite a bit.

$16k in 1972 would be about $94k today.

GT4 sold like hot cakes, and are still strong in the used market. The only thing I know owners are selling for is if they get called up on the GT3 list...and when that happens they're sold in a week.

Read my explanation above Andy.

And yes, there was also DM to Dollar devaluation all thru the 1970's adding to it.


Tom
///////

they used all different variations

here is all leather @ 0013

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here is leather & fabrics @ 0012

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here is all fabrics @0017

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Cool Wolfgang -

I never saw that last one nor realized that they did an all fabric option.

That is quite the 1970's Paisley Hippie fabric too!

I t reminds me of thePasha fabric that Porsche used on the early series 928s.

Cheers!

Tom
///////

Is CPI accurate?

Here's a Forbes article on the problem:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/perianneboring...i/#23c48fc7200b

ADD: another from Mises Inst.:
https://mises.org/library/whats-wrong-cpi

... & another from Investopedia:
http://www.investopedia.com/articles/07/co...rpriceindex.asp

Of course there are arguments on both sides, so you all choose what you want to use ....

.... either the +/- 1-2% average inflation CPI based estimate of $90-95,000 ...

... or the contrarian estimate of roughly doubling each decade for say $200-250,000
> price x 2/10 years x each decade ~ or average about 7.2% annually, & ranging from about 3-12% per year, but you can't compound that annually for the same result of the easy to do in your head "2x every decade" compounding) ....

... or somewhere in between 1-2% & +/- 7% annually.

As someone trained in economics & real estate economics, I veer toward the 7.2% or doubling every decade - & that has proven to be pretty accurate for our long term projections of real estate development, construction, operational & management costs over the 20 year horizons on which we typically project, for the past almost 50 years that I've been in the RE/Construction/Design/Development business.

So you all can choose what you want to believe inflation has really been over the past 45+/- years - 1-2% or about 7%.


Tom
///////

Will someone please tell the story of this 916 in Blue and cork leather? My favorite color combo. I had a 79 Targa SC in this color combo. There where pictures of
Wolfgang in Europe with it when it went back to Europe.

Bob B

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