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74ravenna
Hi all,

Last week a coworker sent me a photo of a 911 without a VIN.
Its a factory built race car that the owner bought new around 1970 (i think) and put the car away, never really drove it i guess.
To look at the photo you'd think it was a nut and bolt restoration, but its all original!

So, did Porsche actually build cars without a VIN in situations like this?
I can't help but think that they had to put some sort of numbers/ID on it.

Did they build any 914s in this same manner?

SteveClick to view attachment
carr914
It's called "Body in White" and a 914 was in the catalog
SirAndy
QUOTE(carr914 @ Jul 11 2017, 03:55 PM) *
It's called "Body in White" and a 914 was in the catalog

agree.gif
EdwardBlume
QUOTE(carr914 @ Jul 11 2017, 03:55 PM) *

It's called "Body in White" and a 914 was in the catalog

Maybe that's why I don't have a VIN... lol-2.gif av-943.gif
Tom_T
Steve,

Since a VIN is technically only a US-DOT requirement for street vehicles, it's possible that a non-street race car could have been produced without a VIN, but IIRC even Porsche's racing department had some sort of ID or Serial Nos. on their Factory Race Cars - even the 917s, 906s, 908s, etc.

I'd have your co-worker ask for more info & documentation on that car from the original buyer/family & seller if different. It should at least have a Chassis Number stamped on it somewhere, I would think.

This would also be a question for your co-worker to ask & verify on this particular car, with Porsche AG in Germany &/or PCNA in Atlanta, if they're really interested in buying this car.

Even if it checks out with them, I don't think that it can be registered for on street use now, without getting a VIN assigned to it - which Porsche would have to do AFAIK, but yet another thing to research with US-DOT & your co-worker's State DMV.

What TC is talking about "Body in White" is basically a replacement car body with no VIN on it yet, which could be used for a total rebuild/resto by Porsche &/or a state licensed shop - either of which under specific rules is allowed to assign the VIN from another car being repaired/rebuilt, & it may involve a "Rebuilt" title in the end.

At one point a few years back I was researching doing a body in white rebuild of my 73 914-2.0 if the cost of it was less that the total accident/rust repair on mine, but they don't have 914 body in white anymore - so that went out the window for me.

PS - Since it is possible to "create" a seemingly original car - & there have been a couple of examples around - I would say buyer beware & check everything out fully & get full documentations from the original owner (if possible) &/or from Porsche, before paying anything on it.

beerchug.gif
Tom
///////
74ravenna
Thanks for the explanation Tom.

Never heard of "body in white".

Interesting.
gcrotvik
Porsche PET

Tom_T
QUOTE(gcrotvik @ Jul 11 2017, 04:33 PM) *

Porsche PET


Yes, I know Greg,

But back in 2011 when I checked with Hennesey Porsche in ATL & a couple of the SoCal dealerships, & there were none available anywhere - not even the 75> listed, & the last price that I saw was in the $8500+ range on the Hennesey price list, but none available.

The parts guy there checked in USA, Canada, Germany/Europe, & Japan & elsewhere worldwide too IIRC. dry.gif

Many parts are listed online as available - & they'll even take your money/charge, hold it for awhile in their account, then tell you it's NLA & refund it! Not a good deal on a $9K+ charge incl. (tax & S&H)! dry.gif

My idea was to get the body-in-white & the panels & parts needed to add to it from mine &/or my parts 914 & misc. parts painted L80E & assembled & VIN reassigned by the body shop; then have the drivetrain/suspension/etc. installed & set-up/debugged/tweaked by my guy Hans (factory trained on 914s in `69 & expert P-Tech since then); & then I could do a side-by-side parts/interior/etc. swap into the fresh body & get it all just right & ready to go to DMV for new Reg. & then to show.

Oh well.... sad.gif

beerchug.gif
Tom
///////
gms
I believe a “body in white” was just that, a body painted white. I don’t believe there was engine, transaxle, suspension or interior. This was a very popular way to make a 935 out of a 911. The serial numbers were like 000 00022 I believe this was the 22nd body from 1980.
I have heard of one such 914 body in white it replaced the rusted body of 914.043.0059
Tom_T
QUOTE(gms @ Jul 11 2017, 05:44 PM) *

I believe a “body in white” was just that, a body painted white. I don’t believe there was engine, transaxle, suspension or interior. This was a very popular way to make a 935 out of a 911. The serial numbers were like 000 00022 I believe this was the 22nd body from 1980.
I have heard of one such 914 body in white it replaced the rusted body of 914.043.0059


When was that -6 body-in-white done Glen? I'd bet at least 15-20 years ago.

IIRC the body-in-white was only the body shell, & also lacked doors, F&R deck & engine lids, & a bunch of other parts to make a complete 914 etc.

beerchug.gif
Tom
///////
rgalla9146
Earlier than '68 with adjustable lower ball joints.
Also headlamps and parking lamps are '67 or earlier.
No body trim.
Looks like a factory roll bar and period Dunlops.
Parts sticker on front strut dust cover.
Evidence of undercoat ? sound deadening ?
What do the seats look look like ?
The engine ?
Co workers phone number ?
yellow75
that looks like a 911R. SUPER RARE..
74ravenna
QUOTE(rgalla9146 @ Jul 11 2017, 09:20 PM) *

Earlier than '68 with adjustable lower ball joints.
Also headlamps and parking lamps are '67 or earlier.
No body trim.
Looks like a factory roll bar and period Dunlops.
Parts sticker on front strut dust cover.
Evidence of undercoat ? sound deadening ?
What do the seats look look like ?
The engine ?
Co workers phone number ?


Talked to my co-worker today. They offered to lower it so he could check it out, but he declined. Now he regrets that.
He's going to try and get more info on it.

rgalla9146
QUOTE(yellow75 @ Jul 12 2017, 10:17 AM) *

that looks like a 911R. SUPER RARE..


It's not an R
The twenty three Rs are all accounted for. By VIN nos.
I've owned five 911R wheels over the years.
Around 1978 I rode in a 911R as a passenger with Fred Apgar driving.
ConeDodger
If he really wants a VIN there's this guy in Atlanta... blink.gif
EdwardBlume
QUOTE(ConeDodger @ Jul 12 2017, 03:45 PM) *

If he really wants a VIN there's this guy in Atlanta... blink.gif

Yeah, Rob "knows a guy..."
porschetub
Was going to start waxing on about an "R" but then pulled back,cause it didn't look right....say what u like a very clean car worth huge money besides,very third party info so far...?
What motor???
ConeDodger
QUOTE(Edward Blume @ Jul 13 2017, 02:14 AM) *

QUOTE(ConeDodger @ Jul 12 2017, 03:45 PM) *

If he really wants a VIN there's this guy in Atlanta... blink.gif

Yeah, Rob "knows a guy..."


I've never met him. I had one conversation on the phone with him. He was a pompous prick. But if you're looking for a VIN I've heard he's your man. blink.gif not that there's anything illegal about that. smile.gif
flyer86d
QUOTE(rgalla9146 @ Jul 12 2017, 06:41 PM) *

QUOTE(yellow75 @ Jul 12 2017, 10:17 AM) *

that looks like a 911R. SUPER RARE..


It's not an R
The twenty three Rs are all accounted for. By VIN nos.
I've owned five 911R wheels over the years.
Around 1978 I rode in a 911R as a passenger with Fred Apgar driving.


I stopped at Fred Apgar's one Saturday in 1978 when that 911R was there. Fred pulled the engine for a rebuild and installed the 2.2S out of his own 914-6 as a loaner. That R engine sat in boxes for about 15 years under his workbench. Naturally it was full of the cool parts, Titanium rods, shim style rockers, 46 Weber etc. The owner finally put up the money for the rebuild and Fred got his 2.2S back.

I crawled all around that car that day taking in all of the details. I didn't get a ride though.

Charlie
Darren C
"Body in White" is a generic name used by ALL European car manufacturers given to a new bodyshell that has not been allocated an identity.
Colour has nothing to do with it.

The word "White" is used as in a "blank" sheet of paper

At Rolls-Royce our Bodies in white arrive in Grey primer.
Mark Henry
RD Pete has said one day it may have enough parts to do a body in white, I doubt if they would do it complete, but maybe as a kit.
At this time I'd say they have a bit less than half of the panels needed.
Tom_T
QUOTE(Darren C @ Jul 13 2017, 04:15 AM) *

"Body in White" is a generic name used by ALL European car manufacturers given to a new bodyshell that has not been allocated an identity.
Colour has nothing to do with it.

The word "White" is used as in a "blank" sheet of paper

At Rolls-Royce our Bodies in white arrive in Grey primer.


I've never seen a Porsche BIW, but given that the factory parts always came in that dark reddish primer, I'd venture a guess that that was the color of the 1960s-70s era BIWs for 911s/912s/914s as well.

beerchug.gif
Tom
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Tom_T
QUOTE(ConeDodger @ Jul 12 2017, 03:45 PM) *

If he really wants a VIN there's this guy in Atlanta... blink.gif


Again, a licensed shop in most states can reassign a VIN to a BIW or other body by following that state's legal process for same. I don't know GA law, but I do know that they can do it in CA. If I'm guessing "the guy you know" then they are a licensed shop in GA since 1978. .... just to keep the discussion on the legality of dealers & licensed shops doing VIN reassignments/repairs/rebuilds clear. wink.gif

Back in the `70's I knew a guy who had a bad accident in his brand new 911S which he loved, who had Chick Iverson Porsche in Newport Beach do a rebuild with a BIW at a cost all in equal to almost what the car was worth. IIRC he had to pay his deductible & then some, but I don't know what sort of title he ended up with (normal, rebuilt, salvage, or ??).

PS - I also had a HS classmate a year ahead of me who wrecked his `69 911S (Grad present for Class of 69 - rich kid), who simply had a shop transplant his 911S's drivetran, suspension/etc. into a old `59 Splitty Van for the ultimate "Sleeper" painted in partial gray primer. He used to recruit a few of us to sit in the back seat so he could pop wheelies in the school parking lot, & take on all comers at red light drags, he being a big guy in the front seat putting too much weight forward! biggrin.gif yikes.gif

I was also talking with one of our OCR 911 aficionados at our Concours last month about Andy T's/SoCalAndy total resurrection & BIWs etc., & he said that there was one of Jerry Seinfeld's famous 911s, which before he bought it was sent to Porsche Classic in Germany for a restoration & it had it's original body swapped for a BIW according to a factory employee he knew who told him about it.

His point revolved around whether that car (a #1 or #2 off the line) is really still an original car - vs. what Andy did to resurrect his original body with a large percentage of new sheet metal & a similar massive reconstruction of another member's 356 pre-A. Sorry, I don't recall the exact car - it was a tail-dragger after all! dry.gif

All of this BIW discussion still doesn't answer whether this car the OP asked about is real without a VIN though.

The fact that Rory G. posted that all of the 911Rs are accounted for & had VINs, it makes me wonder more about this one, but not impossible to find another 911R or similar race/purpose built/customer request car was done. But it's going to be a ton of time to research it out if the OO or seller doesn't have paperwork!

beerchug.gif
Tom
///////
gms
QUOTE(Tom_T @ Jul 11 2017, 07:55 PM) *

QUOTE(gms @ Jul 11 2017, 05:44 PM) *

I believe a “body in white” was just that, a body painted white. I don’t believe there was engine, transaxle, suspension or interior. This was a very popular way to make a 935 out of a 911. The serial numbers were like 000 00022 I believe this was the 22nd body from 1980.
I have heard of one such 914 body in white it replaced the rusted body of 914.043.0059


When was that -6 body-in-white done Glen? I'd bet at least 15-20 years ago.

IIRC the body-in-white was only the body shell, & also lacked doors, F&R deck & engine lids, & a bunch of other parts to make a complete 914 etc.

beerchug.gif
Tom
///////

I cannot say when the transformation (on #59) took place but I think it was about 10-15 years ago that I heard about it. I had pictures but I cannot find them. Another example was a GT3 that came into Kelly-Moss racing while I was helping out on a 914/6 restoration. The chassis was tweeked beyond repair so they bought a new body and transferred all the parts over to the new white body.
gms
QUOTE(yellow75 @ Jul 12 2017, 09:17 AM) *

that looks like a 911R. SUPER RARE..

It does not have the front turn signals or door handles of and R so probably not
gms
found replacement body pix
Click to view attachment
gms
I believe this was a 4 cylinder car in the Netherlands

Click to view attachment
Click to view attachment
Tom_T
Thanx Glen!

That's good "documentation" for those who have never heard of a "legal body swap".

There's a body shop here in Orange CA who had a 914-6 in for a resto maybe 10-15+ years ago, who didn't check the longs 1st, & jacked up the rear end & it literally snapped in half, so they had to get a BIW or another shell for the guy to rebuild it & transfer the VIN & Chassis Nos., but I got that from the shop owner when we were talking about it sitting in his shop on "display" until the owner paid the balance & picked it up (gone a week later).

Unfortunately they've switched to doing only accident repair on late madels, cuz it was a nice resto/swap on the -6.

beerchug.gif
Tom
///////
Dave_Darling
QUOTE(Tom_T @ Jul 13 2017, 07:10 AM) *
If I'm guessing "the guy you know" then they are a licensed shop in GA since 1978.


I believe Rob is referencing a shop that has tried to sell just a 914-6 VIN on evil-bay. Literally, just the VIN plates with a Six VIN. Whether that shop is licensed to rebuild cars with new chassis or not, just selling the VIN is not kosher.

There was also a World member who did a Six conversion a few years back, and picked up a Six VIN from somewhere (not sure if it was from the GA source) and installed those VIN plates in his car.

It wound up being sold recently, and was represented as a real Six. Very very bad mojo there.

--DD
mepstein
QUOTE(Dave_Darling @ Jul 13 2017, 08:07 PM) *

QUOTE(Tom_T @ Jul 13 2017, 07:10 AM) *
If I'm guessing "the guy you know" then they are a licensed shop in GA since 1978.


I believe Rob is referencing a shop that has tried to sell just a 914-6 VIN on evil-bay. Literally, just the VIN plates with a Six VIN. Whether that shop is licensed to rebuild cars with new chassis or not, just selling the VIN is not kosher.

There was also a World member who did a Six conversion a few years back, and picked up a Six VIN from somewhere (not sure if it was from the GA source) and installed those VIN plates in his car.

It wound up being sold recently, and was represented as a real Six. Very very bad mojo there.

--DD

In the 911 world, AA is known as the motor meister of the east. Its just that there are so many sources for 911 parts and labor that they are insignificant. its the lack of choices that sucks in the (unknowing) 914 guys.
74ravenna
As it turns out there was another photo.

Click to view attachment
rhodyguy
Would a title be included for the 6 numbers? Could be a major pain in states with picky liciencing rules. Like WA.

Did the cars in white have the wiring installed in them?
Tom_T
QUOTE(rhodyguy @ Jul 14 2017, 02:59 PM) *

Did the cars in white have the wiring installed in them?


Not according to my research looking for a 914 BIW. It was just a basic primed body shell like they would start assembly with at the Karmann plant (4's), or ship to Stuttgart (6s).

beerchug.gif
Tom
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larryM

interesting discussion - there is a 356 thread that gets into some detail about how Porsche would supply a new body shell w/o VIN if the owner of a wrecked car could prove it was "junked"

Porsche then provided some affirmation that the old VIN was re-asssigned to the fresh shell - for a car in Germany, they would have sent a letter to the TUV validating it's resurrection so that it could be re-registered

- and therefore the new body wore the old VIN and - & as noted above - also likely wore many of the salvaged donor pieces from the old body

dunno if it was ever done in the States (tho, an above post suggests yes)

here is the 356 thread
http://www.abcgt.com/forum/4-356-Forum/290...and-Kardex.html
* summary:
"I believe that Porsche required a vin n​r stating that it was destroyed to sell a replacement body.
they did not verify the actual status of the replaced vin.
Providing a good nr was all that was needed to get a new body without buying the entire car.
*
Even some dealers would sell cars that had a replacement body and install exchange motors and transmissions and pay the import duty on parts not vehicles.
*
isn't re bodied an inaccurate term ​(if) ​
the replacement bodies were new production not a repair?
*
Yes, 'replacement' is not a perfect term but is what Porsche used overall. 356 are not VWs where you unbolt the body from the pan. If Porsche says rebodied they meant that a new body was offered as a replacement.
"
*
also see - http://flatsixes.com/cars/porsche-356/myst...e-chassis-1021/
*
here's the UK version of re-bodies -
https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-registration/rec...lassic-vehicles
heritage MGB bodies can be bought http://www.bmh-ltd.com/bodyshells.htm
*
https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/grm...ak/67052/page1/
" Race cars are a whole 'nother ball game. So may Porsche 917's and 956's were wrecked and rebuilt that the same chassis numbers are now 2 complete cars, and both are legitimate!"
*
Vintage Car Law gets into excruciating detail about "re-bodied" cars legality in USA http://www.vintageautomotive.net/?p=356
*
if that's not enuf to confuse us all - just google it
https://www.google.com/search?q=what+is+a+r...-8&oe=utf-8
*

Big Len
A number of manufacturer's offer these. For example, you can buy a Civic BIW, only for racing.
http://hpd.honda.com/racing-line/racing-li...r=61000-TBJ-200
rgalla9146
QUOTE(74ravenna @ Jul 14 2017, 05:27 PM) *

As it turns out there was another photo.

Click to view attachment


Early aluminum block and factory megaphones mmmmm!
Standard tailights.
This angle would likely have shown the exposed engine lid hinges.
ConeDodger
QUOTE(Tom_T @ Jul 13 2017, 11:10 AM) *

QUOTE(ConeDodger @ Jul 12 2017, 03:45 PM) *

If he really wants a VIN there's this guy in Atlanta... blink.gif


Again, a licensed shop in most states can reassign a VIN to a BIW or other body by following that state's legal process for same. I don't know GA law, but I do know that they can do it in CA. If I'm guessing "the guy you know" then they are a licensed shop in GA since 1978. .... just to keep the discussion on the legality of dealers & licensed shops doing VIN reassignments/repairs/rebuilds clear. wink.gif

Back in the `70's I knew a guy who had a bad accident in his brand new 911S which he loved, who had Chick Iverson Porsche in Newport Beach do a rebuild with a BIW at a cost all in equal to almost what the car was worth. IIRC he had to pay his deductible & then some, but I don't know what sort of title he ended up with (normal, rebuilt, salvage, or ??).

PS - I also had a HS classmate a year ahead of me who wrecked his `69 911S (Grad present for Class of 69 - rich kid), who simply had a shop transplant his 911S's drivetran, suspension/etc. into a old `59 Splitty Van for the ultimate "Sleeper" painted in partial gray primer. He used to recruit a few of us to sit in the back seat so he could pop wheelies in the school parking lot, & take on all comers at red light drags, he being a big guy in the front seat putting too much weight forward! biggrin.gif yikes.gif

I was also talking with one of our OCR 911 aficionados at our Concours last month about Andy T's/SoCalAndy total resurrection & BIWs etc., & he said that there was one of Jerry Seinfeld's famous 911s, which before he bought it was sent to Porsche Classic in Germany for a restoration & it had it's original body swapped for a BIW according to a factory employee he knew who told him about it.

His point revolved around whether that car (a #1 or #2 off the line) is really still an original car - vs. what Andy did to resurrect his original body with a large percentage of new sheet metal & a similar massive reconstruction of another member's 356 pre-A. Sorry, I don't recall the exact car - it was a tail-dragger after all! dry.gif

All of this BIW discussion still doesn't answer whether this car the OP asked about is real without a VIN though.

The fact that Rory G. posted that all of the 911Rs are accounted for & had VINs, it makes me wonder more about this one, but not impossible to find another 911R or similar race/purpose built/customer request car was done. But it's going to be a ton of time to research it out if the OO or seller doesn't have paperwork!

beerchug.gif
Tom
///////


I'm talking about the guy who sells VIN numbers on eBay. That's legal too, but the only problem is the end user's purpose... he knows the end user's purpose and that is promoting counterfeit 914-6 production.
lalee914
QUOTE(gms @ Jul 13 2017, 11:24 AM) *

QUOTE(Tom_T @ Jul 11 2017, 07:55 PM) *

QUOTE(gms @ Jul 11 2017, 05:44 PM) *

I believe a “body in white” was just that, a body painted white. I don’t believe there was engine, transaxle, suspension or interior. This was a very popular way to make a 935 out of a 911. The serial numbers were like 000 00022 I believe this was the 22nd body from 1980.
I have heard of one such 914 body in white it replaced the rusted body of 914.043.0059


When was that -6 body-in-white done Glen? I'd bet at least 15-20 years ago.

IIRC the body-in-white was only the body shell, & also lacked doors, F&R deck & engine lids, & a bunch of other parts to make a complete 914 etc.

beerchug.gif
Tom
///////

I cannot say when the transformation (on #59) took place but I think it was about 10-15 years ago that I heard about it. I had pictures but I cannot find them. Another example was a GT3 that came into Kelly-Moss racing while I was helping out on a 914/6 restoration. The chassis was tweeked beyond repair so they bought a new body and transferred all the parts over to the new white body.



Hi Glenn,
According to an e-mail I have from 2004, 9140430059 was sold in 1986 with the replacement chassis. This is a small part of that e-mail.

14/01/1986 Transferred owner: Chris Duncan --> Heddell & Deeks
Chassis: *0310005*/9140-43-0059
Engine: 642-0251
Colour: L20E/Signal Orange

So the chassis swap had to occur 30+ years ago.

Tom_T
QUOTE(lalee914 @ Jul 15 2017, 07:56 AM) *

QUOTE(gms @ Jul 13 2017, 11:24 AM) *

QUOTE(Tom_T @ Jul 11 2017, 07:55 PM) *

QUOTE(gms @ Jul 11 2017, 05:44 PM) *

I believe a “body in white” was just that, a body painted white. I don’t believe there was engine, transaxle, suspension or interior. This was a very popular way to make a 935 out of a 911. The serial numbers were like 000 00022 I believe this was the 22nd body from 1980.
I have heard of one such 914 body in white it replaced the rusted body of 914.043.0059


When was that -6 body-in-white done Glen? I'd bet at least 15-20 years ago.

IIRC the body-in-white was only the body shell, & also lacked doors, F&R deck & engine lids, & a bunch of other parts to make a complete 914 etc.

beerchug.gif
Tom
///////

I cannot say when the transformation (on #59) took place but I think it was about 10-15 years ago that I heard about it. I had pictures but I cannot find them. Another example was a GT3 that came into Kelly-Moss racing while I was helping out on a 914/6 restoration. The chassis was tweeked beyond repair so they bought a new body and transferred all the parts over to the new white body.



Hi Glenn,
According to an e-mail I have from 2004, 9140430059 was sold in 1986 with the replacement chassis. This is a small part of that e-mail.

14/01/1986 Transferred owner: Chris Duncan --> Heddell & Deeks
Chassis: *0310005*/9140-43-0059
Engine: 642-0251
Colour: L20E/Signal Orange

So the chassis swap had to occur 30+ years ago.


Interesting that a 914 was so heavily rusted that it needed a full BIW more than 30 years ago, which made that 70 -6 only about say 10-17 years old when that heavily tin-wormed out body was redone, depending upon the actual year of the re-body.

I know that even here in "Sunny SoCal" (not always sunny as 72-73 were El Nino years), my 73 (1st sold Nov. 72) had enough rust bubbling occurring by 76, that I had my 1st Rustoration/Repaint done that summer (I bought it from the OO in Dec 75). Mine was cowl & below the sail panels rust bubbles, so not a full re-body level of rust damage.

Before that work, I went to Porsche/PCNA through a local dealer - who said that Porsche was long aware of the rust problems with 914s, 356s & 911s/912s - but PCNA/PAG wouldn't cover any cost on a 3-1/2 year old car with about 58K miles on it by then - so not old. But there were NO 10 year rust perforation warranty back in those days, & in the 1976 MY they started hot dipping the bodies/parts - 911/912E/930 only - since all 76 914s were built before that started, in late 1975.

So the 356 discussions on BIWs above isn't surprising either, but Porsche (VW-Porsche) probably made it worse on 914s with their injected foam.

beerchug.gif
Tom
///////
Tom_T
QUOTE(ConeDodger @ Jul 15 2017, 07:19 AM) *

I'm talking about the guy who sells VIN numbers on eBay. That's legal too, but the only problem is the end user's purpose... he knows the end user's purpose and that is promoting counterfeit 914-6 production.


I wasn't aware that selling "bare VINs" was legal, but then haven't had time to research it due to other BS going on right now with my Biz office equipment. dry.gif

However, if something is legal to sell & sold legally by the seller, then later another person misuses them illegally & fraudulently - then I say the fault lies with the latter.

But then, I'm not sure it's legal to sell cut out VIN stampings & plates is legal, or if it were in past days.

At this point I'm only sure about the legality of & existence of a few BIW or "donor body" swaps done in a legal process per US DOT & States' DMV laws.

PS - this article about VIN Transfers/Sales etc. linked in LarryM's post above -
http://www.vintageautomotive.net/?p=356

.... & this one on Rebodies linked within that article -
http://www.vintageautomotive.net/?p=242

.... are both good articles by a PA attorney, & worth reading as a starting point on both VIN transfers & Rebodies.

beerchug.gif
Tom
///////
gms
QUOTE(lalee914 @ Jul 15 2017, 09:56 AM) *

Hi Glenn,
According to an e-mail I have from 2004, 9140430059 was sold in 1986 with the replacement chassis. This is a small part of that e-mail.

14/01/1986 Transferred owner: Chris Duncan --> Heddell & Deeks
Chassis: *0310005*/9140-43-0059
Engine: 642-0251
Colour: L20E/Signal Orange

So the chassis swap had to occur 30+ years ago.

There was a bit of a problem about this in the UK because someone bought 0059 and resurrected that rusted car so there was the new body with all the parts from 0059 and the real 0059 chassis. just remember in the mid-80's these were $10k cars so replacing the body was a better solution.
larryM
in the British world - you may see titles & plates & vin tags advertised as "wall art"

- "legal" apparently depends on where they are made vs where the particular guvmint entity has particular rules - once you buy 'em - what you do is your opportunity (or problem)

of course we can also just buy blank tags - Stoddard sells 'em for 914 inner fenders; most Brit suppliers sell 'em = DIY, AND we can have windshield tags re-pro'd with correct stamps from a couple of our favorite euro suppliers; plus one of our own & at least one euro supplier will make you perfect repro VIN-nr door stickers

QUOTE(Tom_T @ Jul 15 2017, 09:02 AM) *

I wasn't aware that selling "bare VINs" was legal, but then haven't had time to research it due to other BS going on right now

However, if something is legal to sell & sold legally by the seller, then later another person misuses them illegally & fraudulently - then I say the fault lies with the latter.

But then, I'm not sure it's legal to sell cut out VIN stampings & plates is legal, or if it were in past days.

Tom
///////
larryM
QUOTE(gms @ Jul 15 2017, 09:39 AM) *

.... someone bought 0059 and resurrected that rusted car so there was the new body with all the parts from 0059 and the real 0059 chassis. just remember in the mid-80's these were $10k cars so replacing the body was a better solution.


yes - not worth much in the day, an overarching operative phrase in some of our memories - happened frequently & still does in the "old race cars" world;

we are talking about cars with under 10 yrs all-season road life in places where there is winter & salt on the roads - i owned a '67 911 in Iowa in 1971 that folded in half when you put the factory jack in the jack-point under the rocker - a 4yr old car!), & have seen plenty of similar 914s in the midwest - the 911 had spent it's short useful life as a daily driver in the Chicago-Milwaukee corridor

long before our current fetish with "originality" became vogue - they were just cars and they were fixed as necessary, or not... they were just cars, cheap, fun & temporary & often prone to rusting out well before their 10th anniversary

many of us are now happy to own an originally numbered & titled vintage car with a paper trail, no matter how many body parts, & engines, have been replaced with newer/bigger/better that never existed in 1970xx?

here's Classic Motorsports regarding judging at Amelia Concours:

" Originality is also much more elusive with classic race cars, since most were updated constantly during their racing careers. When a now-priceless original motor was damaged, it was quickly and unceremoniously replaced with another. When sponsors and owners came & went, iconic livery was simply painted over. All this change makes restoring and therefore judging one of these cars very difficult." ~ Tim Suddard.

... do note that Amelia now has a special class for classic race cars that are beneficiaries of 6-figure restorations - cuz they still cannot measure up to unrestored preserved originals that are 200% better than when they rolled off the line)

some yrs ago i helped a friend rescue a TransAm Dodge Dart once driven by famously reclusive Ron Grable - it had been wrecked, carved-on, welded-onto, extended, shortened, aero'd, & refitted so any times in it's "career" for various venues that it was unrecognizable - so - we found & b'ot an original Dart body in a Bay Area wrecking yard - paid $1000 iirc -- & started over - guess we'd call that a "rebody" - registering it for street was never an issue, the law was irrelevant -
www.racingsportscars.com/photo/1966/Riverside-1966-09-18-088a.jpg
www.historictransam.com/Drivers/GaryUnderwood67Dodge18.html

p.s. - we don't all live in California USA
(where, indeed, it is illegal to cut a vin plate out of a body or even remove a riveted or screwed-on plate)

(not to mention putting a non-oem motor into a post 1976 anything - which is why we CA guys all want pre-75 Porsches, etc & put newer/bigger/better engines in 'em))









.
larryM
just got my weekly update - interesting to read all this on "one page"

overnight tho'ts - in all the yrs of association with Porsche's (PCA since '76 when i got my second Porsche which i still have);

there was always a rumor that a person with a pile of cash could send a pile of junk to Germany & Porsche would send it back whole & as-new - maybe in a couple years....

i think the collection of disparate knowledge bits in this thread generally now confirm that rumor

back-in-the-day, the only way any of us ever got any info was by word-of-mouth at event gatherings (swaps, DE-track-days, AX, etc) or by spending money at a Porsche specialty shop that knew answers but were understandably chary about giving it away for free (and still are).

Info was mostly sketchy of the "i heard from x that y heard about... z ... who said ... " (well, OK, we see that on our forums too - fortunately interlaced with enlightened actual evidence at times)

- we went to the Porsche dealer for parts for yesterday's problem (or to local VW since there were so many mechanical interchanges) - not to search thru a catalog for curiosities to discuss at the cafe or bar

almost none of us had access to that PET body-in-white parts nr posted above, save a few parts guys with paper catalogs - most of whom were unlikely to care much about or ever had a call for a new body shell; very few dealer parts guys were buddies who would have let us handle their catalogs (or later the proprietary electronic PET) just for an afternoon's entertainment

- and virtually none of us work-a-days guys or college students were in the high-roller class that could have b'ot one, so mostly we just junked the cars or passed 'em on to slowly decay under a new owner

- now - thanks to the internet & free access to publications (like PET), we can all be informed by the experts who are immersed in the research

so far - this thread has been confined to the O.P.'s 911 question and related 914 commentary with our usual proclivity for diversion, & so far as i know, the primary issue not being read/commented by the larger 911 or 356 communities where more cognoscenti with longer histories in Porsche parts buying & restorations lurk

*********************
so - i posted the question on Pelican as follows:

threads started on Pelican
911 http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911...te-history.html
912 http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-912...body-white.html
356 http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-356...tml#post9664511

"question inspired by recent thread on 914World & old thread on 356 forum (links below)

in all my yrs of association with Porsche's (PCA since '76 when i got my second Porsche which i still have) there was always a rumor that a person with a pile of cash could send a pile of junk to Germany & Porsche would send it back whole & as-new - maybe in a couple years .... i think the collection of disparate knowledge bits in this 914 thread generally confirm that rumor

(my question is primarily about "older Porsche's" - not about USA cars that are "salvage-titled" after insurance settlements - a different, more recent scenario)

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?sho...313127&st=0

www.abcgt.com/forum/4-356-Forum/29099-Re-bodied-cars-and-Kardex.html

whom among us has some definitive knowledge & explanation of the detail and extent of obtaining such replacement factory bodies? ... "

****************
p.s. - i think the issue of "what primer color" the parts were is kind'a irrelevant - there are enuf old threads about the "white" thick "primer we find under our oem paint on not only our Porsche forums but also many other euro-car forums - if a shell or any body piece was shipped out of Karmann as bare steel it would have quickly developed surface rust rendering the next stages of finish subject to failure, the same as happens today right after we strip a body, which is why we must very quickly treat any bare part with chemical potions to forestall that

one of you guys here with old-timer factory-worker contacts in Germany might be able to tell us what was sprayed on the pre-'76 bodies before they were pushed out the door - or if they were dipped, or both?

?
davep
9140430059 was an AFN test car, and used by the press for articles. Sometime in mid 1971 it was badly crashed into a telephone pole (by somebody from the UK Porsche Club who had it on test). AFN had the body replaced, and the old chassis was left around until some mechanic resurrected it with 914/4 parts. A few years after the chassis was replaced the whole drive train and interior was replaced with parts from a 1972 914/6 that was crashed after only 3 weeks. So about now the car retained only it's original registration and license tag and perhaps some suspension parts. When the original chassis was resurrected, it had to get a "kit car" registration. The owner of the replacement body managed to obtain the original engine, but apparently the original transmission # is not known, and that transmission was lost at some point. About 1991 the replacement body was fully restored. The owner was in contact with the owner of the original chassis to see if the car could be purchased. I am not aware of what has transpired since 2004 when I was last in contact.

As for the 911, it should have a serial # of sorts if only the production #. If there is no # stamped in the chassis in the usual location, then the kneepad will have to be removed to find the production #. Depending on the age of the chassis it could be a 13xxx number or a 0x1yyyy number. I do try and keep track of these chassis.
larryM
Dave - trying to follow this 0059 history ?? unsure.gif

1. was AFN = armed forces network or?

2. AFN had the body replaced

- was this with a factory provided "body-in-white" done where & by whom?

my research on other sites suggests that Porsche would sel a fresh shell & authorize "transfer' of the original serial number (VIN) onto a fresh body-in-white if presented with evidence that the oem body was trashed beyond repair

3. A few years after the chassis was replaced the whole drive train and interior was replaced with parts from a 1972 914/6 ...

at this point i am lost - which car are you referring to here - did 0059 with its presumably authorized new body get the '72 /6 parts, or did the original wrecked & resurrected chassis get them?

4. The owner of the replacement body managed to obtain the original engine -

when you say replacement body - do you mean the AFN re-body, or the resurrected "kit" registered body?

5. About 1991 the replacement body was fully restored

- does this mean the AFN "re-body" with it's legitimate Porsche authorized VIN & '72 parts, or the "kit reg'd" body was restored?

if i am following this correctly - the 1991 owner-restorer obtained the oem 1970 engine that had been replaced by the '72 engine?

the fact that this apparently all happened in Britain tends to confound the story since they have a different process for certifying & registering cars than we USA folks comprehend

- of course, this also was 40 yrs ago, when the rules were different smile.gif


QUOTE(davep @ Jul 17 2017, 08:52 AM) *

9140430059 was an AFN test car, and used by the press for articles. Sometime in mid 1971 it was badly crashed into a telephone pole (by somebody from the UK Porsche Club who had it on test). AFN had the body replaced, and the old chassis was left around until some mechanic resurrected it with 914/4 parts.

A few years after the chassis was replaced the whole drive train and interior was replaced with parts from a 1972 914/6 that was crashed after only 3 weeks. So about now the car retained only it's original registration and license tag and perhaps some suspension parts. When the original chassis was resurrected, it had to get a "kit car" registration. The owner of the replacement body managed to obtain the original engine, but apparently the original transmission # is not known, and that transmission was lost at some point. About 1991 the replacement body was fully restored. The owner was in contact with the owner of the original chassis to see if the car could be purchased. I am not aware of what has transpired since 2004 when I was last in contact.

As for the 911, it should have a serial # of sorts if only the production #. If there is no # stamped in the chassis in the usual location, then the kneepad will have to be removed to find the production #. Depending on the age of the chassis it could be a 13xxx number or a 0x1yyyy number. I do try and keep track of these chassis.

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