I took my 914 to a reputable shop here locally to have some work done. It was running roughly and I didn't have time to monkey with it myself.

Anyway, while there and on a test drive with me in the car, the brake pedal went straight to the floor. I had previously always had firm brakes, good pads, and no other braking problems.

We get back to the shop and look at the pedals and there is fluid everywhere. Ok, master is shot. Ok to replace it with a new 19mm master. Call the shop a few days after parts arrive, new master is in, but the pedal is still mushy. Shop owner asks me if I want to replace the brake lines. I didn't really, but I had a set braided lines, so I drop them off. Still no improvement. Owner suggests to remove the proportioning valve and replace it with a T-connector. T - connector is a $15 part, he does it all the time - fine, go ahead.

A couple days go by (been really busy at work) and I stop by this AM and the brakes are still really mushy and go all the way to the floor. Pumping them up brings the pressure back but its still a problem. I call this afternoon and speak with the owner. He tells me that they found a leak in a hard line that runs from the pedal cluster back towards the firewall. I am going to go look at it tomorrow first hand. How we fix that line and how it broke are still open issues as well.

So it looks like it may not have been the brake master or the proportioning valve and definetly not the brake lines.

I take the car to this person because he has a good reputation, has been very fair with me in the past and for his expertise in solving these problems. Given what we have found - what is reasonable to expect in terms of the labor charges?

Any guidelines here would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

Well, you now have some nice upgrades. In the 20 so years I have been playing with 914's I have never seen the tunnel line go bad but we have differnet rust issues here. It may all go back to some one messing around in the tunnel.

QUOTE (914Sixer @ May 20 2005, 03:48 PM)

Well, you now have some nice upgrades. In the 20 so years I have been playing with 914's I have never seen the tunnel line go bad but we have differnet rust issues here. It may all go back to some one messing around in the tunnel.

Yeah - I know about the upgrades and those are nice.

I do not know how or why the tunnel line may have gone bad. I have only had the car for a little over 2 years, so there is a lot to discover.

I just need to know what's reasonable to expect in a situation like this. Seems like the shop owner was going down a path that maybe could have been avoided. In thinking on it, what would you all have done if after replacing the master and bleeding it, the brakes were still mush?

*Note: Since the leak is in the tunnel, there are no external signs of leaking either.

QUOTE (KaptKaos @ May 20 2005, 04:36 PM)

Pumping them up brings the pressure back but its still a problem.

that usually means air in the system (or a leak) ...

a new MC can't hurt (other than your wallet) ...

now bleed 'em. then bleed again. and just when you get tired of it, bleed once more ...
that should give you your pedal back!
Andy

I had some what of a similar experience. Reputable shop I have been using for years. last time I took it in they test drove it after the repair and the wheel fell off! he was all of a sudden areal A hole. I paid the bill and found another shop. My advice is to pay the bill for quality work done and decide if you want to go back. It sounds like they did the proper troubleshooting and can't necessarily be blamed. I have successfully received a lower bill on similar experiences with Some of my American cars but after that the shop didn't treat me the Same.

Sometimes it's hard to find good shops. Use a shop you trust or work on the car yourself. Really good shops won't make you pay for their screw ups. If they do then I would move along. Has he given you a bill yet? If he's honest you shouldn't even have to bring anything up. Sounds like no discount is in order but you'd be surprised what good shops will do to keep you their customer.Trick is, is to find a shop like that.

Luke D

at some point "the guy" decided to delegate stuff to others. this frequently happens...
the current crop of "technicians" (i hesitate to use the term 'mechanics') have no diagnostic abilities and just throw parts (on which they make a markup...) at the problem. i wouldn't have put flex lines on for these symptoms, and i definitely wouldn't have put on a T. (get ALL your old parts back...)

the hardline in the tunnel is a PITA but not horrible. you *definitely* want to see this "mysterious" sudden leak, and they better be able to produce a rusty hardline...

you should pay for the parts (betterment...) at reasonable prices and you should pay labor for the ACTUAL problem -- not the time they burned up fixing other stuff.

I too have had a similar experience. Couldn't get my car to pass emissions and being 17 I didn't have a clue what to do. I took it to a (supposedly) reputable shop to get it to pass emissions. The 'tech' spent several hours on it, never got it to pass and still dinged me for almost $200 labor and parts after he replaced a 2 mo. old O2 sensor and tried to turn some screws on the AFM to no avail. Car ended up needing a new cat. He was never even close. That was the last time I ever took one of my vehicles to a mechanic.

What I have seen time and again is if you take a car to a shop, does'nt matter if it is X, Y, or Z Motors and hand them the keys and say, my car is doing (insert problem here), it always seems like they take the slowest route to generate the largest amount of labor possible. As the lines in the center tunnel either rarely fail or are difficult to inspect, it seems like all of the prudent things were done.

I would go to the "Damn, that seemed to take forever" argument. I've had bills lowered with it.

I am going to guess that the brake system, although working fine, was old and nearing an overhaul.

The series of failures could have started when one of the mechanics, sorry "technicians", jammed his metal toed boot clad foot onto the brake pedal during a test drive and overwhelmed a worn MC causing it to be very close to failing and the soft pedal.

During your test drive the MC failed completely which caused the pedal to go to the floor and the fluid around the pedals.

With the MC replaced, and increased to 19mm, the higher pressure overwhelmed the old rubber brake lines which continued the soft pedal feel.

The new braided lines removed all give in the system which caused a weak spot in a worn or rusted hard line to fail.

The main questions are:
How old was the brake system? and
Is there sign of rust or wear in the hard line?

Unless you overhauled the brake system during the two years you have owned the car, or know for sure it was by the PO, you were probably close to having to overhaul it anyway. I would be interested in seeing the old hard line too.

Yeah, that's a good question - what's the history on the brakes from previous service records?

BE THANKFULL that you were not in trafic or racing it down the road!!! it would have cost you a WHOLE LOT MORE

QUOTE

that usually means air in the system (or a leak) ... a new MC can't hurt (other than your wallet) ... now bleed 'em. then bleed again. and just when you get tired of it, bleed once more ... that should give you your pedal back! Andy

Next time read the thread...

Should he bleed them now or after they replace the leaking line?

They can hose you on this... I think the best thing you can do is talk to the owner and plead your case. If he wants your business again he'll probably work with you. Big "if" though.

QUOTE (Eric_Shea @ May 20 2005, 06:41 PM)

QUOTE that usually means air in the system (or a leak) ... a new MC can't hurt (other than your wallet) ... now bleed 'em. then bleed again. and just when you get tired of it, bleed once more ... that should give you your pedal back! Andy Next time read the thread... Should he bleed them now or after they replace the leaking line? They can hose you on this... I think the best thing you can do is talk to the owner and plead your case. If he wants your business again he'll probably work with you. Big "if" though.

Also this is mandatory for firm brakes....

Quoted from Pelican:
Adjust the venting clearance for the rear pads. If you don't do this, you will have extremely spongy brakes. Using a feeler gauge placed in-between the rotor and the pad, tighten the adjusting screws until the clearance is 0.2mm (.008") on both sides. This is shown in Figure 18. For the outer pad, turn the adjusting screw counter clockwise to tighten. For the inner screw, turn it clockwise to tighten.

At this time, if you are planning to rebleed your brake system, then you should do it and then readjust the rear caliper venting clearance again. For more info on bleeding 914 brake systems, please see our Pelican Technical Article, Bleeding 914 Brakes. After the brakes are bled, then check the adjustment and readjust if necessary.



See the whole article here
http://www.pelicanparts.com/techarticles/9..._brake_pads.htm
Hope this helps....

Don't you hate when someone easter eggs out a bunch parts on your car guessing it will fix something - just as good of a job as you yourself can do...

If your pedal died, blew fluid all over the pedal cluster, replaces MC - but mushy pedal, dumps the P-valve and replaces with a "T" then at the same moment blows the hard line to the rear? To me it sounds like they broke your hard line replacing wih a "T".

Our brakes can be tough to get a nice firm pedal, but it's not rocket science. To me it feels like he is having you pay for a mistake or two on his end. What else could be faulty? sticky calipers, bad replacement M/C or a botched bleed job.

I feel for your situation. That is why I try to do as much stuff on my own as I can, labor is cheaper and I can effectively kick myself in the ass when I screw it up.

That's why WE are here for...to avoid the throw parts at it mechanics....

Hello
Thanx for confirmation (personal)
I just deleted a 10 page rant
no regrets
Regards
Joe

So is it time for BOOBS?

I'm officially lost Joe...

QUOTE (KaptKaos @ May 20 2005, 03:36 PM)

I took my 914 to a reputable shop here locally to have some work done. I take the car to this person because he has a good reputation, has been very fair with me in the past and for his expertise in solving these problems. Given what we have found - what is reasonable to expect in terms of the labor charges?

Taking these 2 statements into account, it sounds like the shop took a logical approach to solving your problem. While I personally wouldn't use stainless lines, or ever use a "t" in a stock car, when you're tracing a problem, you don't know where it will end. If this is truly a reputable shop, as you say, why are you trying to get out of paying what is due? Did they not do the work? I'm just playing devil's advocate here, so please don't take it personal. If you had had the time to work on the car, you probably would have had advice from this board to check the things the mech also checked, and much the same as he did, with much the same result. But that's hindsight, and it's always 20/20. Bottom line here is do you trust the shop? If not, pay your bill & take it somwhere else. If another mech finds that the first messed up, do something about it. Otherwise keep tracing your gremlins down & eradicate them.

QUOTE (Travis Neff @ May 20 2005, 10:25 PM)

... it sounds like they broke your hard line replacing wih a "T".

that 'Z' -shaped line that runs from the input to the proportioning valve, up through the gap in the firewalls and into the tunnel is a b!tch to replace - you have to get the bends exactly right and then snake it up into a place you can't see at all.

"replace hard line" sounds like it could be a 10-minute job but i recall it taking me about 3 evenings the first time i did it. i even ordered the 'correct' part from the dealer hoping it'd come with the right bends, but it didn't - it was just the 'right' length. if i'd been smart, i'd have pulled it back out when i got it right and traced a template but i was so relieved to have it done i connected the fittings and moved on.

QUOTE (Eric_Shea @ May 20 2005, 11:59 PM)

I'm officially lost Joe...

Oh don't worry at all, we have several search partys out looking for you... just stay where you are.


M

Gmorning...
I had too many beers, then got on the PC and had way too many more. Strange week.
It was a negetive post that nobody needed to hear
Its here somewhere, if I can find it
Later
Joe

QUOTE

Oh don't worry at all, we have several search partys out looking for you... just stay where you are

Still waiting... I've been flashing my compact mirror at every passing 914 but they JUST DON'T SEE ME

what is the name, and the size of the shop owner's boat? i worked for a guy who named his newer, bigger one "Change Order".

k

QUOTE (markb @ May 21 2005, 04:33 AM)

QUOTE (KaptKaos @ May 20 2005, 03:36 PM) I took my 914 to a reputable shop here locally to have some work done. I take the car to this person because he has a good reputation, has been very fair with me in the past and for his expertise in solving these problems.  Given what we have found - what is reasonable to expect in terms of the labor charges?   Taking these 2 statements into account, it sounds like the shop took a logical approach to solving your problem. While I personally wouldn't use stainless lines, or ever use a "t" in a stock car, when you're tracing a problem, you don't know where it will end. If this is truly a reputable shop, as you say, why are you trying to get out of paying what is due? Did they not do the work? I'm just playing devil's advocate here, so please don't take it personal. If you had had the time to work on the car, you probably would have had advice from this board to check the things the mech also checked, and much the same as he did, with much the same result. But that's hindsight, and it's always 20/20. Bottom line here is do you trust the shop? If not, pay your bill & take it somwhere else. If another mech finds that the first messed up, do something about it. Otherwise keep tracing your gremlins down & eradicate them.

Since the brakes failed while at his shop, what should I have done? Driven it home?

Hey Joe, was this Alex? If so, he's usually fair on things like this.

R and R on a master cylinder is ALWAYS a bitch to get all the air out.... I have found that bleed, bleed, tap on each caliper, bleed, bleed, wait a day and do it all over again is the only way.

QUOTE ("Z" @ May 20 2005, 09:14 PM)

So is it time for BOOBS?

Absolutely!

I dunno. I'd want to see exactly where it's leaking before they do anymore.

IMO, if the system built pressure before, then it wasn't leaking. Air in the lines, sure... but not leaking.

Makes me wonder if they goobed something up replacing one of your parts.

I don't like to pay to help someone up the learning curve. If I go to a mechanic/technician (especially a Porsche tech) I expect him to have a certain level of technical savvy and am willing to pay fairly for it. Don't train on my dime. But if it was an honest service, I have no problem writing the check.

The real question is... what does your gut tell you? Do you think you're being screwed?

A new master cylinder seems like a good call if there was fluid all over the floor. They fail often. There's a sudden failure, often followed by a subsequent period of "working fine". Sometimes they leak internally, but they often leak on the floor, too, and eat up the pedal bushings. It's obvious to me that the line in the tunnel broke, and probably right near the front. I've seen these fail literally dozens of times in VW bugs, why not teeners? They rust through from the outside, or sometimes from the inside if the fluid isn't changed every couple of years. The advantage on a bug is the line runs along the OUTSIDE of the tunnel. Being on the floor, and hidden in the tunnel, it's gonna be the LAST thing you look for. As for the prop valve, I have yet to see a bad one, 32 years and counting. As for those SS braided lines, be prepared to go over EVERY one twice a year, with a bright light and a careful eye. What you suffered this time is the way they announce their failure. Rubber (OE) lines last an avarage of about 10 times longer. BTW, I don't think the 19mm master cylinder makes more pressure, and I believe it takes MORE pedal pressure (movement) to achieve the same movement of the fluid, relative to the 17mm part. The Cap'n

At this point I don't think it would be wise to name the shop or mechanic.

But Joe, in my conversation with the Shop Foreman Friend of mine what I described as our "mechanic" he described as a "parts changer."

As I said this morning; we can't get away with throwing hardware at a problem to fix something without resolving that the hardware is actually the problem.

I think the mechanic needs to work with you on the labor charges.

Thanks all for the help and advice.

The mechanic is going to pull the line so we can have a look see Monday.

I went to look today and there is about 1/4" - 1/2" of brake fluid in the tunnel.

I could not see or feel any holes or anything, but the space is really limited in there.

The hard line comes to a barrel connector right before the firewall and that area is all dry. It seems like it coming from the front and sloshing back.

I looked at the lines and realized that rust is not likely and issue as the lines are aluminum. It would have to be some odd wear or over torque situation.

I will know more on Monday. Pix to follow as well.

Thanks again for all of your help.

- Joe