I was very careful last time with this, followed the directions of the late Captn,
just used oil as lube and slipped them in place. some leak some don't,
many say no sealant some have used RTV - looking for more advice so I don't have to do this again
Phil
Full Version: Push rod tube seal leaks
QUOTE(Philip W. @ Mar 7 2018, 08:05 AM) 
I was very careful last time with this, followed the directions of the late Captn,
just used oil as lube and slipped them in place. some leak some don't,
many say no sealant some have used RTV - looking for more advice so I don't have to do this again
Phil
Use the viton seals....listen to the Captn.
this is what I just got in, the Viton seals. I am hoping for a better result, the motor is out so it should be a lot easier to do this time around. Looks like I will then be doing the valve settings for the first time myself too so any advice would be good.
QUOTE(Philip W. @ Mar 7 2018, 08:17 AM)
this is what I just got in, the Viton seals. I am hoping for a better result, the motor is out so it should be a lot easier to do this time around. Looks like I will then be doing the valve settings for the first time myself too so any advice would be good.
These are the references I used to do my valve adjustment.
Pelican Tech Article
https://www.pelicanparts.com/techarticles/9...alve_adjust.htm
YouTube 'Type 4 Valve Adjustment' this is on a VW bus fyi
https://youtu.be/thxE4Sroxm0
I have some Viton X shaped orings that I've been trying out. Want a set? PM me your address.
QUOTE(McMark @ Mar 7 2018, 11:55 AM)
I have some Viton X shaped orings that I've been trying out. Want a set? PM me your address.
sure!
Works fine. Lasts a long time. 
I did this a couple of times. 
But in addition to the Viton seals I learned that having everything perfectly clean is a must.
Probably does not help but I apply the seals to the tubes then freeze them. Minor reduction in size at best but they seem to go in extremely easy and I think reduces the chances for damage to the seals because you don't have to use as much force.
But in addition to the Viton seals I learned that having everything perfectly clean is a must. Probably does not help but I apply the seals to the tubes then freeze them. Minor reduction in size at best but they seem to go in extremely easy and I think reduces the chances for damage to the seals because you don't have to use as much force.
I oil both the seals and the hole. I use a socket (14 or 15mm ?) to gently push the tube in. If they are seated correct they will feel like they are vaccum sealed
i wanted to pulle the tin pieces under the cylinder heads anyway as i have newly cleaned and painted ones an there is quite a build up of dirt and oil there so its a good opportunity to clean things up . i am hoping i will be able to keep it clean for a while.
thanks for the suggestions- not sure if i will put any sealer on the large side or not- i might do one side with and one side without, see what happens-
i assume that is red rtv Elliot?
thanks for the suggestions- not sure if i will put any sealer on the large side or not- i might do one side with and one side without, see what happens-
i assume that is red rtv Elliot?
I use Viton seals with some high performance Permatex thread sealant. Part #56521.
Apply a little on the seals, then slowly push the tubes in.
I spin the tubes half way back and forth looking in with a flash light to be sure the seals are not pinched. Seals very well.
Apply a little on the seals, then slowly push the tubes in.
I spin the tubes half way back and forth looking in with a flash light to be sure the seals are not pinched. Seals very well.
i use a thin smear of hylamar. havent had any leaks on the 3 i have done.
no sealant!!! Just use the Viton seals and a bit of motor oil or lithium grease so they slide in easier. One the Viton are installed you should not have to replace them again
I was very careful last time with this, followed the directions of the late Captn,
just used oil as lube and slipped them in place. some leak some don't,
many say no sealant some have used RTV - looking for more advice so I don't have to do this again
Phil
QUOTE(Philip W. @ Mar 7 2018, 09:05 AM)
I was very careful last time with this, followed the directions of the late Captn,
just used oil as lube and slipped them in place. some leak some don't,
many say no sealant some have used RTV - looking for more advice so I don't have to do this again
Phil
QUOTE(dr914@autoatlanta.com @ Mar 7 2018, 12:51 PM)
no sealant!!! Just use the Viton seals and a bit of motor oil or lithium grease so they slide in easier. Once the Viton are installed you should not have to replace them again
I have put 41K miles on my engine since 2013. I am chasing some oil drips, but not from the push-rod tubes. Being a fresh re-build everything was clean as Blizzard said. And I lightly lubed them since the break-in oil was close at hand.
Not hearing why folks recommend no sealant, but sounds like both groups have had success.
QUOTE(Elliot Cannon @ Mar 7 2018, 09:05 AM)
Works fine. Lasts a long time.
Although Elliot is proud of this......the Captn would have some choice words.
QUOTE(Mblizzard @ Mar 7 2018, 09:26 AM)
But in addition to the Viton seals I learned that having everything perfectly clean is a must.
Clean and smooth--make sure there are no lips or nicks or ridges in the bores for the seals to snag on.
--DD
QUOTE(914_teener @ Mar 7 2018, 11:07 AM)
QUOTE(Elliot Cannon @ Mar 7 2018, 09:05 AM)
Works fine. Lasts a long time.
Although Elliot is proud of this......the Captn would have some choice words.
Choice indeed!
The oil ring is a simple solution to a hugely complex problem. Keeping a good seal while tolerating huge thermal variances and pressure swings that occur inside an engine is a not a small feat.
It only takes a small imperfection for this system to fail. But adding sealant (especially silicon) like the Dr. says is a bad idea as it just creates potential problems. If a small part breaks loose you would be very lucky if it made it to your oil filter. if it loges in a small oil passage or restricts oil flow you are in for some serious damage.
I would rather replace the oil tube seals for leaking than an engine because I used the wrong sealant in the wrong application.
QUOTE(Mblizzard @ Mar 7 2018, 11:31 AM)
QUOTE(914_teener @ Mar 7 2018, 11:07 AM)
QUOTE(Elliot Cannon @ Mar 7 2018, 09:05 AM)
Works fine. Lasts a long time.
Although Elliot is proud of this......the Captn would have some choice words.
Choice indeed!
The oil ring is a simple solution to a hugely complex problem. Keeping a good seal while tolerating huge thermal variances and pressure swings that occur inside an engine is a not a small feat.
It only takes a small imperfection for this system to fail. But adding sealant (especially silicon) like the Dr. says is a bad idea as it just creates potential problems. If a small part breaks loose you would be very lucky if it made it to your oil filter. if it loges in a small oil passage or restricts oil flow you are in for some serious damage.
I tried all the above. Eventually bought new tubes and with the above advice,installed them - success!
I would rather replace the oil tube seals for leaking than an engine because I used the wrong sealant in the wrong application.
QUOTE(Dave_Darling @ Mar 7 2018, 02:27 PM)
QUOTE(Mblizzard @ Mar 7 2018, 09:26 AM)
But in addition to the Viton seals I learned that having everything perfectly clean is a must.
Clean and smooth--make sure there are no lips or nicks or ridges in the bores for the seals to snag on.
--DD
I think that since some leaked and some did not it was my installation or lack of proper installation that was the issue, I am hoping second time will result in no leaks
- is crank case pressure and ventilation an issue or cause of leakage as well?
QUOTE(Philip W. @ Mar 7 2018, 11:57 AM)
QUOTE(Dave_Darling @ Mar 7 2018, 02:27 PM)
QUOTE(Mblizzard @ Mar 7 2018, 09:26 AM)
But in addition to the Viton seals I learned that having everything perfectly clean is a must.
Clean and smooth--make sure there are no lips or nicks or ridges in the bores for the seals to snag on.
--DD
I think that since some leaked and some did not it was my installation or lack of proper installation that was the issue, I am hoping second time will result in no leaks
- is crank case pressure and ventilation an issue or cause of leakage as well?
There is always some pressure in the engine case due to blow by and the hurricane of pressure changes that occur every 180 degrees of rotation. Over time, these things take advantage of the small flaws in the seal like dirt or nicks and give birth to leaks.
If you have enough pressure in the case to cause a well seated seal to fail then you have much more serious issues that need to be addressed!.
Wether you use lube or sealant, when you reinstall; As the oring just starts to enter the case holes, rotate the tube as you gently push it in. That will keep it from getting pinched. Then make sure they are seated completely, and don't forget the wire tube retainers.
QUOTE(McMark @ Mar 7 2018, 09:55 AM)
I have some Viton X shaped orings that I've been trying out. Want a set? PM me your address.
Still have these? Or if not, what's a reliable source of the Viton seals? I'm not sure these are the ones I'm finding on Pelican.
Part numbers usually end in V.
QUOTE(Elliot Cannon @ Mar 7 2018, 09:05 AM)
Works fine. Lasts a long time.
Rheet - Rheet - Rheet - Rheet (Psyco music) As long as it worked for you.
To me that looks like "let's see how small a blob of silicone it takes to ruin an engine"
The reason there's an O ring there is because the engine expands and contracts, and the O ring seal will allow some movement due to thermal expansion
Thanks Mark for sending these down, I will be installing them next week . Motor wont be run so no testing effectiveness until installation of the motor once the car comes back from paint, which I am told the car goes into the booth end of next week!!
I tried all of the suggestions above with varying poor results. Finally an old pro suggested try a new set of push rod tubes new tubes along with the new brown "O" rings. No more oil leaks!
QUOTE(914Toy @ Apr 6 2018, 12:24 PM)
I tried all of the suggestions above with varying poor results. Finally an old pro suggested try a new set of push rod tubes new tubes along with the new brown "O" rings. No more oil leaks!
We'll be changing the transmission (and adding a Chris Foley linkage) and clutch soon. I'm thinking it could be easier just to take the whole engine out and do this.
Looks like the pushrod tubes cost about $12 each. Unclear if I shouldn't just order these beforehand. Mechanic doesn't want my car using up one of his bays while waiting for parts.
QUOTE(98101 @ Apr 6 2018, 12:30 PM)
QUOTE(914Toy @ Apr 6 2018, 12:24 PM)
I tried all of the suggestions above with varying poor results. Finally an old pro suggested try a new set of push rod tubes new tubes along with the new brown "O" rings. No more oil leaks!
We'll be changing the transmission (and adding a Chris Foley linkage) and clutch soon. I'm thinking it could be easier just to take the whole engine out and do this.
Looks like the pushrod tubes cost about $12 each. Unclear if I shouldn't just order these beforehand. Mechanic doesn't want my car using up one of his bays while waiting for parts.
Update: Now I've heard 914Rubber has the pushrod tubes for $8 each. If you were me, would you replace these while doing the seals?
Click to view attachment
Click to view attachment
at 8 bucks a tube? absolutely. theyre often banged up and sometimes the ends are out of round. If youre trying to stop leaks, I'd get new tubes and viton seals and be done with it.
The sealant/no sealant debate rages on. I'm on the 'no' team. But if you do decide to use sealant, make sure you use something that remains pliable like yamabond.
The sealant/no sealant debate rages on. I'm on the 'no' team. But if you do decide to use sealant, make sure you use something that remains pliable like yamabond.
First assembly i used selant. 3 leaks across 2 heads and i removed all gunk, replaced with higher quality seals. This time i used a smear of red rubber grease and no more leaks. Just be careful not to get the grease inside the head. If you do, wipe it away.
Never had a push rod tube leak, I hate leaks.
Always used Loctite 565.
Also make sure your crank case is vented properly, otherwise oil exits every place it can.
Always used Loctite 565.
Also make sure your crank case is vented properly, otherwise oil exits every place it can.
QUOTE(914forme @ Apr 7 2018, 03:30 PM)
Also make sure your crank case is vented properly, otherwise oil exits every place it can.
I tried to confirm this by feeling the air from the dipstick tube, per this thread:
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=327308
There was enough volume of air to feel it blowing, but when I covered the hole with my finger it didn't feel like a lot of pressure. So I *think* the crankcase ventilation is working. Is there a better way to check Type 4 crankcase pressure?
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