Good Evening World,

The wealth of knowledge on this board has been highly regarded and recommended to me by a fellow member and owner of a 914-6 from sunny Southern California.

In recent past, I bought a 1972 1.7 DJet car in hopes of replacing my previous mid engine car that was sold last summer, the Cayman R.

I have been intrigued and compelled to buy an air cooled car for a couple of years, all the while I was chasing particular water cooled models. I was briefly introduced to a 914 at Cars and Coffee in San Clemente and decided this was the build for the long haul future to replace the water cooled mid engine Cayman.

Shortly after the purchase, my car had troubles homeward bound as I was flying south on the 5. It was then that trials and tribulations began of learning the air cooled classics of the past. And my peers and friends were forced to learn very quickly.

I have been very fortunate to have met a few local Southern California owners and enthusiasts have spent hours on end with me and the car leading to some great learning experiences and newfound friendships. It is now time to open this up to the Republic to get this running the canyons as quickly as possible..

We can not get the car to start at this point, as we do not have spark.

We have tested the fuel pump, fuel pressure, coil, and injectors. All are in proper working order. The car has many mechanically sound parts of good value. We actually have trouble finding issues with the parts mechanically.

We believe that the djet woring is the fault here and need assistance with pointing us in a common failure direction. We have read troubleshooting guides through and through.

We are now coming full circle and believing that it might be related to the distributor and the points inside. This was tested after the initial breakdown.

What are your thoughts?


Cheers to you all,
Caymini

No spark will most likely be closed points, or bad condensor.

Greatly appreciated.

I plan to install a new distributor this weekend, do I need to adjust timing manually?

When the cars fail to start, Is there any chance it can be ECU related on these cars?

Ecu's do fail, but not very often. Only one way to set timing. With a light. First, set dwell (point gap), then timing. Follow procedure in your manual, if you have one. If you don't, get one.

That's not going to cause a no-spark situation. A bad ECU can cause a no fuel, or improper levels of fuel, situation, but ECU's don't fail very often.

Lack of spark is going to be pretty basic ignition troubleshooting as Curt said - distributor cap, wires, coil, condenser, points, etc. All of these things are easy and cheap (unlike ECU) to diagnose and fix.

Why the new distributor? Is it not the correct one? You need to get the timing close manually (e.g., static) and then follow the Haynes manual or find a post here that describes the timing method for stock 1.7 FI cars.

Thanks Gents

It's likely that you have carbon build up on the ignition rotor and/or dizzy cap (possibly on the points too if the car hasn't been converted to elec ignition).

Get some emory cloth or very fine grit sandpaper, and clean the metal contacts on the rotor and also inside the cap until they're shiny again. In a pinch I once had to use my car key to "clean" them off when this happened to me in a grocery store parking lot.

As mentioned, ECU's rarely fail. Often times if you're having electrical problems, spending some time cleaning every electrical contact you can find solves the problem.

Good comment!

I've been helping him and we did notice carbon build up and darkening on points, rotor contacts and cap. Been thru a lot of items to troubleshoot so far:

Fuel system:
replaced filter
added fuel pressure guage before inj rail
found bad relay and bad relay board using D-Jet manual and replaced, testing good.
fuel pump now runs at startup, set fuel pressure to 28.5- 30 per manual
noid light shows injector pulses at startup. trigger points had been checked by earlier mechanic
smell some fuel when trying to start. No spark on inductive timing light.

Ignition system:
no spark showing from timing light on any wires
coil has 12V
cleaned contact on rotor and inside cap. Is tere something in rotor that goes bad?
cleaned points with emory cloth, found braided ground wire on points plate hanging by threads / soldered till firm, but haven't checked resistance/continuity yet.
points opening and closing. need to check .016 in gap on cam lobe
Found cracked vacuum hoses on adv and replaced both on adv and retard.
swapped condenser with unknown spare - still no spark

awaiting new contact points base plate with internal braided ground wire from AA. $29

Dwell meter not reading correctly. researched Capt Krusty thread and realized we should have put neg lead from dwell to engine ground instead of 15 neg coil terminal DUH!

[u]Next Steps:
Hope to install new points and condenser and get dwell set properly.
Then set timing and find spark.
Perhaps Cylinder Head Temp Sensor is cutting ignition? Yet have 12v at coil, so probably not.
Also read about how poil ignition wire has worked if pulled back slightly out of top of cap - crazy! adds enough resistance to improve spark??

The following is for D-Jet only...

The ignition has absolutely nothing to do with the fuel injection. Spark events are controlled by the points (standard or Pertronix). The points are the 'switch' that creates the spark. The coil is wired with +12v on the + side of the coil. The negative side of the coil goes to the points, which control the grounding of the circuit.

Testing at this step:
1) Pull the Black wire and check for +12v with the key on.
2) Pull the points wire from the coil and check continuity (ohms) to ground. This should switch between 0 resistance and max/infinite resistance as the distributor turns. Put the car in 5th gear and push it to rotate the engine and make the distributor turn. Make sure you get both states: no resistance and max/infinite resistance.

The fuel injection is a standalone, autonomous system EXCEPT for the trigger points in the bottom of the distributor. Those separate points components are ONLY and EXCLUSIVELY for the injection system. They are in the distributor, but have nothing to do with spark control. Nothing.

Since your problem is spark, I'll stop there. Report back after that and we'll go on from there if necessary.



If I were troubleshooting this, I would install a Pertronix instead of standard contact points. Then you won't have to deal with the little ground strap, you won't have to set the dwell, and you won't have to clean/check/replace them every year.

Could be a bad coil, check resistance with it disconnected.
Also check the polarity.

Thanks for the comments McMark and MgPhoto!

agree, only the trigger points in the bottom of the distributor affect the djet injection system and we have pulses on a noid light.

we have 12v to the coil with key on, black/purple wire. We'll recheck polarity connections to coil. wiring diagrams show BLK/PURP and Green from Dizzy go to neg (1) terminal and BLK/RED tach wire go to + (15) terminal on bosch blue coil.

continuity of Bosch blue coil should be about 3 ohms across term 1 and 15?

start with making sure:
the valves are in adjustment
you have good compression
the dwell measures 50 as you crank
the cranking fuel pressure between the two drivers side injectors is 28

If all of that is good, that eliminates the ignition circuit as well as the fuel pump circuit. If you have dwell and no spark, make sure that the dist cap and rotor are good.

If any of the first things are not as I stated, post and we will head down that branch of the troubleshooting stream

I wrote in my 914 tech tips book appendix, the "non starting procedure" which outlines this

Check your oil for the smell of gasoline. If your injectors are working, (you smell fuel) no spark, the excess fuel gets past the rings drains into the crankcase and thins the oil.
Pull the plugs see if they're wet.
If so, dry the plugs and change the oil.

Thank you for everyone’s time and valuable responses.

Road Atlanta, I actually bought a part from you that will be integral to the fix.

We are hopeful to have the car firing this weekend.

Thanks again Gents.

Correction dr14 autoatlanta

*dr914


(Autocorrect errors by Siri)

by all means if you need tech advice or even 914 moral support if you get bummed out about the car, please call and we can talk about it 800 792 4944

Most of the day while my people operate the business, I am on the phone giving 914 tech advice, and looking at detailed shots of 914s people are interested in purchasing and asking my advice

My goal is to get the car to be a daily driver reliability wise

Should I move away from the direct injection djet and do carbs motor ?

I wouldn't. But I personally like FI. D-Jet is very reliable once you learn how it is supposed to function and get all the components working. If you have a system that wasn't well maintained it can take a fair amount of effort and money to get it set up properly. I've replaced everything on my D-Jet to include the wiring harness. And I've spent many hours reading up on how it works (thanks to people here like Anders and Jeff Bowlsby and others). That's been part of the "joy" of owning the car, but I may be a bit weird like that.

i might of missed it, do you haves park at the plugs?. i know you have voltage at the coil, and your noid light works, but any spark? follow the advice given to troubleshoot your distributor. throwing a carb at your your ignition problem is not going to change anything.

Sounds good BeatNavy.

As much of a bummer it is that the car has had recent troubles, it has been a blast learning some air cooled techniques and getting to know some locals in the area.

I agree with the notes above and plan to stick on the djet FI.

Will the Djet and FI be a limiting factor for larger motor choices down the line in hopes of make my more power?

D-Jet works well up to (and probably at least a little beyond) 2056, which is a well-proven match. With the right cam I believe you can get to 120 HP pretty easily. Problem is, the next "step up" is probably a 2270. And with a 2270 you're probably on the edge from an induction / fuel delivery perspective. At that point go carbs or some other fuel management system. I'm doing the latter.

If you don't already have it as a resource, this is great: https://members.rennlist.com/pbanders/djetparts.htm

For a daily driver, D-Jet is awesome once the bugs are worked out.

Awesome

I want to thank the locals that have been very helpful to me and this process: Green car Mark, Larmo63, Colin from Greene Performance, and Auto Atlanta with a few Integral parts sales. ***And Lastly, to all of you on the board taking the time to share

The 914 mod bug and addiction is strong.... the struggle is real!

Miles with air-cooled smiles.

There is a 2258 for sale locally, would this work for djet?

Also a 2056 locally available... but go big or go home?!

I probably need to slow my roll and just get the current 1.7 setup with exhaust and headers rolling first haha

Did you ever replace the condensor?

New condenser and points are going in this weekend in the distributor

Feeling hopeful

I wouldn't unless you want to get worse mileage, emissions, and driveability along with spending a good portion of time at least once a year fiddling with them. Especially if you plan on keeping it a 1.7 as those injection parts are relatively easier to come by.

Given it sounds like you already narrowed it down to ignition, first thing i would do for more reliability is ditch the points. Every time I have left points in a 914 it has always wound up biting me at some inconvenient time. In order from cheapest to most awesome any one of these will increase the reliability on a daily driver. If you dont mind dropping the cash though the 123 dizzy is really the way to go as it addresses multiple issues beyond just the points.


https://hot-spark.com/
http://www.pertronix.com/prod/ig/ignitor2/default.aspx
http://123ignitionusa.com/porsche/


D-jet itself is a pretty simple and rock solid system. Generally the only sudden failures you are likely to see that will leave you un-drivable are MPS diaphragm failures or the head temp sensor wire breaking. Both of which are fairly rare (and even rarer if you have installed new components) beyond that you might get intermittent issues from a bad TPS board or wiring harness but those usually wont leave you dead in the water. Install an electronic ignition, replace all your fuel hoes with new ethanol resistant stuff and verify your wiring harness is solid and d-jet should keep you going for a long time.

Can djet handle a 2258 at 140hp? There is a local one for sale

Or should I look for a 2056

Thank you all for the recommendations and wisdom.

Mark and a I were able to t t the car firing and reliable, once again having a blast!

Cheers

Cabinetmaker, do you have a recommended condenser part to buy as a spare?

How often do these fail?

That's great that your car is running, but after all the help you got here, are you not gonna tell us what the problem was?It might help someone else with their problem.

Bosch

Here you go: https://www.pelicanparts.com/More_Info/3119...amp;SVSVSI=5874

Thank you for the Bosch condenser link.

It was distributor related - the internals with the points and condenser.

We replaced the distributor with a spare, and we will build the original distributor with either the hot spark internal points or the Pertronix II which will be installed afterwards.


Can djet handle a 2258 at 140hp? There is a local one for sale

Or should I wait and look for a 2056...

Maybe/probably. I think Rich Towle has done something like that. It may require mods to the MPS so that you can adjust it rich enough to handle the varying load conditions. That and maybe bumping up fuel pressure a bit. Now being able to do that AND get stable idle, consistent behavior, decent economy, etc. etc....I don't know

The cam choice will have the most impact on if D-Jet will work. A 2258 (erroneously referred to as a 2270 by most) with a stock camshaft would be pretty straight-forward to run with D-Jet, but nobody builds a 2.3l with a stock cam. So if you know what cam's in there, post it. But likely it's too big of a cam to work reliably.

There's also your personal preferences. Some people can't stand a lumpy, surging idle. Some people don't care about that as long as it runs strong when you put your foot in it. Those are two VERY different scenarios that would have opposite answers to the question "Can djet handle a 2258 at 140hp?".

Mark, now that you mention it: I've been meaning to ask that question at some point: WHY do people commonly refer to that combo (96 P&C and 78 crank) as 2270 when it's actually 2258?

Just to be clear, we eventually found a bad mesh ground wire inside the distributor and had tried to solder it but still had no spark. AA had the distributor points base plate and points with the ground wire at reasonable price of $29. we ran into problems trying to install a Flaps condenser onto the existing distributor as the green wire was too short to mount it where it was supposed to go. And the new AA points base plate took some reaming to get the vacuum advance linkage hooked up. So it’s the quickest fix was to try the used distributor that Caymini picked up. We got it firing, set dwell, and set timing to spec. He says it drives great now.

We had previously gone through the djet and fixed a bad relay board, fuel pump relay, clean d all grounds, tightened wiring connections, found cracked vacuum hoses, changed fuel filter, and installed an in line fuel pressure guage to get the djet in good shape. So it did take time as the car was outside and SoCal actually experienced some rainy weather.

Thanks for all the guidance and suggestions, it was my first djet experience, but we learned a lot! Sure do see the benefit of having the fuel pressure gauge, noid light, dwell and multi meter and timing my light handy. Also understand how djet requires this distributor with trigger points, and the vacuum advance and retard.

hey asshole, do you even have a 914? you are encouraging this assclown. everyone is here to to help. did you change the blinker fluid?
djet is so hard, i wet my diapers, whaahhh. if you do have a car follow the suggestions , and btw fuck the rest of of you guys, posers

Yes, everyone that has been on here has a 914. I have a 74 1.8 Ljet and I do the wrenching on my father in laws green 914 that we autocross and his ‘68 912. People wanted to know what was actually the culprit. It was probably the ground wire inside the distributor. But there was a lot else that wasn’t in good shape as we looked. PO was apparently not not too much into wrenching himself.

The 2270 uses a larger than 78mm stroke. I think it's 78.8mm? Not quite 79mm.

--DD

Anyone have any experience , hopefully positive, with Empi carbs?

Aside from price, comparison to dellortos and Weber’s?

I may use empis on a larger motor setup to accompany the djet system 1.7 motor, as they are a nice price point

Might be just me, but this sentence makes no sense. How do carbs accompany a djet system?

I’m going to keep the stock 1.7 for djet

And grab a larger displacement motor with carbs

Thanks for that!

Btw, djet is good till around 2.2L

The plan is a 2258....which puts me at the limit

A 2056 would be just fine

Thoughts on a 2056 vs 2258 to feel a noticeable power upgrade from the stock 1.7?

2056 is a nice step up from a 1.7.

Get the 1.7 running right and drive the car.

Then you can spend your money on fixing all the other issues that come up and when you have spare $$ save it for your engine upgrade.

My recommendation was always upgrade suspension, brakes and tires first as they make the most difference in the performance of the car.

Then think about horsepower.

Jim

Thank you Jim