I know valve adjustment screws have discussed to death, but frankly, the information is all over the mat and the more I read, the more confused I get. I'm hoping to get some clarity for my build. Here's the situation: stock "GA" 2.0L engine. The only mod on this engine is the OE camshaft got a mild regrind for carbs and I installed euro spec (flat top) pistons. This is not a performance build, just looking for reliability.

The heads are in Sonoma being rebuilt right now and, based on advice from this forum, will get a new set of SS valves. I have a box full of rocker assemblies from several engines, including both 8mm and 10mm versions. My original plan was to install the 10mm rockers with a new set of OE adjustment screws, but I have read that SS valves require either swivel foot adjusters or lash caps to protect the stem ends. True or False? Manley valves have hardened tips

If it's true that SS valves need extra protection, I like the swivel foot adjuster options, but they are damn expensive and i AM trying to stay in a budget here. Lash caps seems the less expensive option but what is the best way to deal with the extra length they add to the valve stems?

Again, I'm just looking for a reliable engine that provides new stock performance. I'm not interested in upgrades that only benefit high performance engines or provide nothing but bragging rights.

Thanks in advance for any advice.

You want the elephant foot adjusters if you are making any other valve train modifications to your build.

The elephant feet will also require you to use 1.7 rockers, and clearance them to fit.

Zach

Thanks Zach,

My question is, why? I don't doubt the elephant feet are better (quieter, less side loading, better valve rotation, cures erectile dysfunction, etc.), but at a minimum of $250 for a set of authentic Porsche adjusters, those are expensive screws. I want to know that investment will translate into increased longevity of the engine. If the SS valve tips are hardened, why would OE adjuster screws punish them any more than they do stock valves?

I have plenty of rockers from 1.7s, my 2.0, and a bus. BTW, is the only difference between 2.0 and 1.7 the size of the adjustment screws? I ask because my 2 liter had 8mm screws (mid-73 MY). My 10mm set came out of a bus.

I wonder if you can use these...
https://www.cbperformance.com/product-p/1518.htm

I had Hamm rebuild my heads a few years ago when he was still working on stock 2 liter heads. He used stainless valves and double springs. I am running the oem 8mm rockers and push rods. I am adjusting both intake and exhaust at .006 in. since I don't have sodium exhaust valves any more. No one told me there was any kind of hardness problem with stainless valves.

I can tell you that I wish I would have made the switch to swivels. I know the adjusters are expensive but it's really the only thing I feel like I should have done while it was all apart. Yea I saved a some money but the stock valve train is loud.

I looked at those but they came up in one of the many older threads I read and not in a good way. I don't remember the issue, but the consensus was to use genuine Porsche screws. But if something like the CB swivels would make a good sub for Porsche parts, this upgrade would be a no-brainer.



Thanks Mark, this is very helpful. The sound benefit alone makes the swivel feet attractive. We all know that the stock Type IV sounds like a pound of loose bolts in a washing machine. Part of my resistance here is that this is an upgrade that would be easy to do down the road. Rockers are easy to swap with the engine still in the car. I've done it before. So it isn't like I'm stuck with the choice I make now as long as my choice doesn't wind up mushrooming my valve stems.

I'm doing a full rotisserie resto of what a year ago was a pile of rust. If you add every $200-$300 upgrade that would be nice, it doesn't take long before you are 5-10 grand over budget. I'm trying to be careful about sorting out what must be done now, could be done later, and really isn't worth the $$ At this point, I'd put this one in the "could be done later" group but not set in stone. Thanks for everyone's input so far.

Yes.... sounds like someone shaking a coffee can full of rocks.

I don't know if I would go to the trouble of making the change now that it is back together and runs good. Because my heads were cut I had to do the geometry thing with the shims and dial indicator. It can be done with the engine in the car but it wouldn't be pleasant. I had to go back in and change some push rod tube seals that I cant get to seal up. It's a pain to do that with the engine in the car. They still leak but not bad and I would rather drive it than work on it.

I had a set of these in my shop for a visual evaluation and thought they looked pretty good. I am not endorsing them, just putting it out there as a viable option. Quite a few bus owners have reported good results with them on the samba.

The benefits of a quality swivel screw to guide and valve life are significant.

http://www.tp-technologie.de/produkte%20ve...ellsch%20en.htm

I have the 10MM set up that I am going to use on the HAM heads. I had my work done by a guy in LA. Machined the rockers for swivel feet and machined the rocker end shafts to use a solid center spacer with shims so rocker is dead center on top of valve. I was waiting to show set up when the new heads get here.

Alright, I'm back in the hunt. Len's confirmation that they do increase guide and valve life is the sort of justification I needed. If the TP screws pan out, it makes it a no brainer since it would be even less expensive than replacing the OE screws with genuine Porsche parts and about the same as after market. You may have answered my question already Mark, but given that I have my choice of rockers, I wonder if there is a benefit going with the 10mm set.

I haven't found anything negative about the TP screws on Samba yet, but still digging. Another worm popped out of the can I opened though. Looks like I should use solid spacers on the shafts instead of the OE spring and shim setup? I think I need to read up on setting valve geometry. I was operating under the assumption that only applied when modifications were being made.

Last question... for now What is the first indication of a crappy adjustment screw? Do the valves just start going out of adjustment fast? I've had the pleasure of driving my bus when a valve broke. Blew a hole right through the case. I need to take care of my matching numbers baby here.

I need to stay off this board... or I will end up doing work on something that I thought was settled. Those adjusters look tempting. I was told fly cutting the heads is what constitutes a change that required shimming the rockers. I also used spacers under my jugs to set the C/R which also is a change that required shimming the rockers. On a rebuild I don't think there is any way to get around doing the geometry thing.

As for going out of adjustment fast I can only say that I probably adjust mine more just because I am trying to keep them quiet. I can tell by sound when it's time.

In short, the swivel head fails. Either jamming in place or breaking off entirely. Usually when the engine is at red line, because Murphy is a bitch.
I had a set on my engine for a long time. Upgraded to Jakes full valve train kit with the good screws. Gave my old ones away and one of them failed shortly there after. I felt like crap about that.

Zach

I bought a 68 bus back in 2000 that had 52,000 miles on it. Just to be safe I had the heads rebuilt and bought an inexpensive set of the elephant foot adjusters which I am assuming is the same as the low priced ones linked in this thread. I had limited knowledge at the time of valve train geometry but knew enough to grind down the adjustment screw end of the rockers so that the foot could clear the rocker arm with enough room for full range of adjustment. I also used the shims that came with the rockers. But I didn't know then that I should probably have had resized the push rods too. But despite this I put 60,000+ miles on the engine afterward without any issues. Not suggesting to do what I did but if these are the same rockers they worked very well on my old type 2 motor.

Correction: I just realized that I used the swivel ball adjustment screws not the elephant feet. Sorry for the mix up. I wonder if there is a swivel ball option for the type 4?

Ha! If you are like me, something like this would wear on me until I break down and do it. I have the benefit of 7-8 months of winter so plenty of garage time to fiddle.

Good point about the jug shims. I haven't decked my engine yet so something to keep in mind. I'm learning it isn't as easy as just rebuilding the heads and then bolting all the old parts back on like I did with my bus rebuild. That ran well for about 30K miles until the aforementioned #3 exhaust valve grenaded the engine. I just assumed it was because I had reused valves that already had about 120K on them, but maybe not addressing the geometry contributed.



So what kind of damage did that do Zach? It doesn't sound good but trying to think of worst case. Maybe worst would be bending a valve and crashing a piston into it? Okay, that's pretty bad.

If you do the adjusters you have to switch to chromoly push rods that you have to cut to length.

I noticed these a while back:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/VW-Type-4-CNC-Bill...nCa&vxp=mtr

The seller looks familiar

Those are the spacers I was talking about. Just going by what I read on Samba earlier, but it sounded good... the stock setup uses the spring with shims/washers on the ends between rockers which allows for side to side movement and therefore less precise geometry. But that's all I know.

There was a big debate on one of the older threads about adjusters and push rod tubes. It seems you only need custom push rod lengths if you have to shim the rocker assembly to get clearance for the adjusters (or change the deck height). If you don't shim the rockers, you haven't really changed the geometry other than to more precisely align the rockers with the valve stems. This is all new to me but makes sense.

It's been a while since I did it but I think you shim the rockers so that the rocker tip hits the center of the valve at half lift. If I remember correctly this issue is that you don't want the rocker to put all of its movement on one side valve or the other which would cause premature wear on the valve, the tip & the guide. There are some great write ups around here about how to set it up.


Kind of like this but different:

http://www.lunatipower.com/Tech/Valvetrain...inGeometry.aspx

Subject valve lash caps??
Okay who has experience with the old school valve lash caps?

I was going to start a new thread but am jumping in here.

Am doing a 2056 build and have on order a new set of AA heads (44 by 36 SS valves) with weber 40IDFs, WebCam 086 grind, 96mm AA flat top pistons/jugs, etc

So I have a set of 1.7 8mm and 2L 10mm rocker arms. Just found a set of valve lash caps from my FV racing days and was wondering about using them with the 10mm 2L rockers instead of going the the pricey road of genuine Porsche swivel feet. Car is to be a low mileage daily driver. I understand they might change the geometry which will be checked and set either way. Any comment on going this route and longevity. I also have read where the SS valve are a little softer or just Urban legend???

YES I am very interested in the TP swivels. If they turn out to be on par with the Porsche ones, which rockers should I use them on, the 8mm or 10mm set, since they can supply either?

http://www.tp-technologie.de/produkte%20ve...ellsch%20en.htm



Thanks

jjs3rd914

Edited the thread subject to include lash caps...

I'm not a builder...

but I "believe" setting the valve train geometry should be done on any rebuild at this point....

if your pushrods are the wrong length... you will not get the benefit of an aftermarket lift/cam

I suppose it might be safe to say that valve train geometry be set any rebuild that changes from the stock cam?.... or just any rebuild

Here you go. This guy can answer all your questions. He did my rockers and stands. He sold me the German 10mm swivel foot adjusters that will work with a stock cam and stock pushrods. Email: bugguy1967@gmail.com. He has ads on theSamba.

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/det....php?id=2060099

I've used every method there is ...do it right.
If on a budget get some used real 911 adjusters

Bbrock - I am in the same boat as you. I am getting new heads done by Len (HAM) and want to ensure I put the best with the best. I currently have springs for spacers so those will definitely be upgraded to the spacers.

Can someone give clear steps on what is needed to get 911 swivel feet on the GA 2.0 rockers? Some say slap them on, some say geometry, some say shims, some say chromoly custom rods.

I use 911 adjusters on all my builds. And if you're building a 'blueprinted' motor where everything is checked and dialed in then there's no question. You want the best of the best? Get 911 swivel feet.

---DONE---

But obviously there are engines being built by people that need to save money where they can. And there are people who are building motors that don't need the best-of-the-best on everything. For those people there is a choice to be made, and the idea that 911 adjusters are the ONLY safe way to build a motor is false.

Yes it makes your valvetrain last longer. There's no debating it. But just because 911 adjusters are better doesn't mean solid adjusters are bad. What's the life expectancy of a solid adjuster setup? There are still original factory motors out there that run fine. So does that mean that the solid adjusters are good for 50,000 miles? 70,000? 100,000?

How many miles do you drive your car in a year? For most people, a 50,000 mile lifespan would equate to more than 10 years.

And if we're talking about life expectancy -- are all the rest of your parts going to match the life of the 911 adjusters? If your pistons and cylinders aren't going to last 100,000 miles, what good is a valve setup that will last 200,000?

So I recommend getting the 911 adjusters for all engines -- but if you don't run them, don't feel like you're building a grenade, don't feel like you're doing it wrong. You CAN build a motor that will have a good long life with solid adjusters.

This has been a great thread. Thanks all for your input. I've decided to follow Mark Heard's lead. Those TP swivel feet look really good and it sounds like people are having great luck with them. Looks like a good way to good nearly or equal to genuine 911 feet on a budget. I'm going to send my 10mm rockers to bugguy1967 and have him machine them and send me the swivel feet and solid spacers. From reading, it sounds like with that setup has a good chance of getting the geometry right without having to shim or cut custom pushrods. But I'll check and cross that bridge if I have to. I'd like to stick with aluminum pushrods (sticking with stock springs) as I've read that chromoly tend to be noisy. I'm just looking for good valve life on a nearly stock engine and quieting the clatter in the process if possible.

Count on cutting new pushrods. But maybe you'll get lucky.

And Aircooled.net sells aluminum pushrods that you can cut to length.

Make sure you get your valve adjustment numbers correct: ChroMoly is zero lash. Aluminum (stock or custom) uses the stock numbers (0.006").