So I just got back from my vacation to Florida....... Had a blast

On the way home, while stopping at one of those road-side "jams, jellies, and pecans" places.... I found a classic car dealership and peeked through the window.

........ where I found a car I've seen a thousand pictures of...... but never actually seen one in person...... a 1972 Lotus Europa.

Same appeal as the 914.... tiny, nimble, rear engine, 2-seater, etc.

Oh yea.... and it looks wild.. like nothing else out there....... much like the way I fell in love with 914s.

Plus.... the cost is low.... gotta love that.

So...... whats up with these cars? Are they fast? Handle well? reliable? piece of crap? expensive to buy parts? easy to modify? etc.

I'd like to hear from anyone thats ever owned or driven one..... and their thoughts. Thanks!!!

Matt

here's a pic... for those that have no idea what one looks like (not the one I saw)

I always thought they looked like a british El Camino, but that's just me.

The Super Pacer has to be one of the ugliest cars in creation. It is a lotus so parts will be fairly easy to find but most of them will have to come from England. The parts are underbuilt, nowhere near like the 914. You still get Lucas wiring. I have a friend that has an Elite, I'll post this to him and see if he can offer any advice.

What were they selling for ?

QUOTE (Brett W @ Jun 10 2005, 02:28 PM)

The Super Pacer has to be one of the ugliest cars in creation.

A lot of people say that about the 914---LOL

And if it's of any comfort..... my fiance said she thought it looked just like the 914........ with a camper shell.

Hey..... it's all a matter of taste..... I like it.

Not ready to buy or anything..... but the interest is there.... the seed is planted.... just looking for info for now.

My oldest memory of a Europa was when I was about ten and we were moving to SA TX with my father. We walked past a Lotus in Roch-rocha-cha, NY and my Dad pointed to the car and said "That, David, is a Ten Thousand Dollar Car!" I really had no idea how much $10,000 was.
The Europa was mid engined water cooled British car with, I think, all the inherent problems. Lousy electrical!
Colin, something or other, was a racing freak who's main concept was light weight! HP per Lb! By lightening his cars he could be competative in smaller classes and still win. That was the theory.
A lotus of any type would be my third or fourth choice, if money were no object.
That's all I know

QUOTE (jim_hoyland @ Jun 10 2005, 02:29 PM)

What were they selling for ?

Well.. the price varies depending on the condition like any car.....
But..... from what I've seen, eBay prices range from 2k for a rusty piece of crap, up to around 10K for a nice one.

Kinda like a 914.

The red one looks just like the one that my Dad drove into the ground. Part availability was not great twenty years ago, handled better than a 914, was even more underpowered than a 1.7, really cool cockpit feel, harder to get in and out of than a 'teener.

Dad's started eating rear wheel bearings, he modified for ones that were more available, that didn't work as well as it sounds. Backed into something and damaged the rear cradle, shifting wasn't as good after that. Hit a big dog and broke off the front fender, air inlet to wheel arch, crappy "temporary" home patch job never got redone. I forget what the killing blow was, but something else happened and the car sat in the desert for a decade before he moved to Hawaii, he had a hard time giving it away as a parts car, not much of a community out there.

That said, a pretty cool car, I loved riding in it as a teenager.

If you really want to freak out your girl, buy one of these!

super seven

They're VERY small. WAY lower than a 914. Footwells are very cramped, and you can't be all that tall and still fit. You essentially sat on the floor even with the stock seats. I'm only 5'7", and felt cramped in one. I remember talking to a friend that was sitting in his, and I was squatted all the way down and looking him directly in the eye.

There were several versions. Most used a Renault transaxle (4 or 5 speed). Some also used a Renault four, but many used a Lotus made engine (a Ford block with a Lotus "Big Valve" head, usually). Very light cars, at roughly 1400-1500lbs. Very fragile cars, as it you'd bend the suspension just saying the words "curb rash" to them. Backbone frame was poorly rust-proofed steel, with an all fiberglass body bonded or bolted to it (depending on the version). You can't see a damned thing out the gun-slit rear window, and the sail panels prevented you from seeing anything at about 4 to 5 o'clock.

They're fast like the 914 is fast: all handling, not blistering straightline speed. They're one of the few production cars that can really match the 914 in the handling dept., actually. A good one would blow a good 914 into the weeds.

There's a place in the UK called Banks Garage that specializes in making "new" Europas and parts, using a much better backbone chassis. They fit 140-180hp four cylinders to them, usually, Ford Zetecs. They're also a great place to go for resto parts.

I've had several friends with them, and I sat in a Big Valve car and came pretty close to buying it 20 years ago, but really didn't have the time, money, or knowledge to deal with it then.

QUOTE (ewdysar @ Jun 10 2005, 02:37 PM)

was even more underpowered than a 1.7

Funny you should say that...

Actually, what I found interesting about the one I saw, was that it was rated at 125 hp..... which is pretty impressive considering it's about the same size as a 914, and I ASSUME "about" the same weight.

Of course, it could be some super-powered "Big Jake" version of a lotus 4 cylinder....... I really don't know.

The Lotus Europa is very similar to the 914 in that it's often an accepting platform for modifications. The Europa is VERY light (1500 lbs), with a body that is nearly all fiberglass. The first generation had the body bonded to the frame, the later models were bolted.

Later models had a 1500 cc twin-cam motor that put out 125 hp stock.

A pretty potent car in it's day, and these days is a choice chassis for building SUPER autox cars. Some of the top cars in SCCA D-Modified and E-Modified are built on the Europa chassis.

One I'm thinking of has a turbo charged 13B rotary in it. And in racing trim tips the scales at just over 1000 lbs...

-Josh2

Dad's was a Renault powered one, I heard that Lotus was including French parts to reduce import taxes onto the mainland. The later ones had better engines.

Eric

Good God! You're right! I found one that looks EXACTLY like a 914

Click Here

WOW... sounds more and more like something I'd like to own.

1500 lbs and 125 hp??? Ummm... yea... that'll work.

OK.... let the "rice-hater" comments begin.... but I'm thinking a set of 16 inch wheels might just set this car off nicely..... cause I hate the wheels. Anyone know what the lug pattern is on one of these??

And most importantly..... Whats the cost of replacement parts? More than 914 parts? Less??

QUOTE

Whats the cost of replacement parts? More than 914 parts? Less??

I don't think they offer aftermarket snowplows for them...

QUOTE (Eric_Shea @ Jun 10 2005, 02:59 PM)

QUOTE Whats the cost of replacement parts? More than 914 parts? Less?? I don't think they offer aftermarket snowplows for them...

Oh now that was just wrong..

QUOTE (Eric_Shea @ Jun 10 2005, 02:53 PM)

Good God! You're right! I found one that looks EXACTLY like a 914 Click Here

[QUOTE]

I've driven both the Renault and the Twin cam versions extensively (I used to be in the Brit car biz). Its been a while but my memories of the cars are pleasant. I built a hot engine for the Renault powered one...it was an early car and very quick with the engine mods. It would be hard to find an affordable car with a better suspension...just don't hit anything, its fragile...the price you pay for very low unsprung weight. The owner of this car wanted me to use it for a month to sort it and break it in so I put some hard miles on it...even autox'ed it once. The later car used the lotus twin cam engine....a good bolt in upgrade was the 16 valve 2L version from the Esprit or Jensen Healey. This car seemed much more civilized...less of a kit car feel, but it wasn't much quicker in spite of the twin cam motor....more sound proofing and generally more finished with more amenities (=more weight). The cockpits are a bit cramped by 914 standards but I'm 6-2 and it was ok. No body rust to worry about as it's fiberglass, but check out the backbone frame for the red scourge. Lucas electrics aren't as bad as their reputation suggests...at least on a simple car like the Europa. All in all I would love to have one in my garage, BUT, not as practical for an everyday driver as a 914...besides you can't take the top off and they are kinda funny looking at certain angles.

Sorry Matt... couldn't help myself.

Randy, didn't they have fire problems with the early ones?

Got a couple friends that are big time Lotus nuts.
One used to have a Super 7 with a Honda 929 bike engine... rode in that one and it was the scariest thing I've ever done, he also had a Europa that was stock to my knowledge.
He now has a Europa with no windshield that is partially completed.

The other friend is just finishing building a '73 Europa, originally a twin-cam model. He has installed a 1600cc Ford/ Cosworth engine from an early 80's Formula Atlantic car (220-240hp) and the car should weigh approx 1600 lbs.
He's got wheels from an Elise installed, 4 piston Wilwood brakes, caged, and various other cool bits. The first ones I saw, I thought they looked kind of goofy, but when done well... possibly the coolest car I've ever seen. The Elise wheels and green paint with yellow accents looks awesome.

Here is a pic of the first one, I believe it was an S1 model.

Eric..... no worries... I'm used to the "snowplow" comments--LOL It's cool

Randy.... thanks for the good info... that definately helps. Here's a question:

Any chance they were made with air conditioning?? Not that I really care a whole lot, but it'd be kinda cool if so.

I'm going to do some surfing and see if I can get a history on these.... getting more and more interested the more stories I hear.

Not too worried about it's "fragility"..... I baby the 914 the same way, and would never condider using either of them as a daily driver.

hope this doesn't come across as negative..
but don't..... please.... don't put 16inch wheels on one.
It would be like running chevy wheels and chevy adapters on a stock 914/6...
your car do what you want, but its still sacreligious

talk about changing the design philosophy regarding sprung weight...

car likely would not fit 16inch wheels, and car was never designed for 16inch wheels...

These cars are under built for weight purposes.
you would likely rip the wheel bearings apart or rip the suspension off... Once you understand Lotus' you will understand what makes them unique
(and its not 16inch wheels!)

A very nice small light car.
a couple are in our vintage group.
If your going to get a street one, look for the JPS special.
very cool.

I know of a vintage one being auctioned locally this very weekend. Its a log book car with the motor taken apart for freshening... then the owner passed away and now his widow is selling it tomorrow.

my dad had an elite and an elan both new.
my middle name is Colin and I'm guessing you can figure out "Collin Who"....

(in fact dad even rolled the elite on an interstate and it held up very well and was rolled back over and driven away, all 1100 lbs of it!)

really really nice cars if you want the (argueably) cream of the british crop!

brant

There's a "Player" version?

Black and Gold I imagine...

That yellow/green one rocks

I almost bought a '74 Players special model when I was shopping for a car in
74, the cars are lower, at least as nimble, but the build quality is typical for British iron, Prince of Darkness electrics, crappy brakes, won't hold oil over the long haul and they seem to come from the factory with knocks, squeeks and rattles built in...I was once told that it's because...."the British gentleman likes to tinker with his auto"...what a load of BS.. And. By the way, I have the right to bash British cars, I owned over 11 of them before I got fed up, great to drive when they're running, and have a certain "cachet" but I wouldn't trade my 914 for a perfect Europa...ever. Ther is a reason that there isn't a car industry in the UK anymore. But an earily Elite, ok, then I'd give it up...... Just my .02.

yep the players version was typical 1974 type car.
Gold pin stripes on black body...
but still cool none the less and limited just like an LE
the one to have.


Boy the early Elite..
what a car..
NO METAL FRAME
NO weight!!!!

I once read that there were 12 of them originally imported... 12 of them.. can you believe it..
I think there are alot more than 12 of them over here now and I've seen them in the vintage scene a few times.

dad said he could outrun corvettes of the same age.
even in a straight line!
10 to 1 power to weight BABY!!!!

cool car!
brant

72 will have the Ford Cosworth Twin Cam engine...i believe they stopped the Renault engines in 71. Also, 72 was the first year for a body change (rear sails were lowered several inches compared to previous years...much better to see out of rearward.

The europa shared alot of parts with the triumph spitfires/gt6's (things like side lights, hubs etc....used to have a 71 europa and a 72 gt6).

They are REAL small. This car will make you feel like your 914 is a caddy. You wear this car. The engine is really easy to work on as there is alot of room...body also bolts right off in its entirety. The engines are not powerhouses, but you are used to that with a 914. Handles just like a gokart!

Last comment...don't get hit in one! The europa's were made as a racing car and Lotus produced it for the street just to meet racing requirements. You'll love filling up gas from each side of the car!

The original Elite was a really pretty car, but they were fragile even by Lotus standards, and fixing one after a shunt was pretty much impossible. An Elite bodyshell on a galvanized Elan/Europa chassis (same unit, just flipped around 180 degrees) would be the bees knees.

There's a guy in Berkeley that has 2-3 Elites, and he shows up at a local Brit car show annually with one that has an automatic gearbox from a Datsun in it.

I think the Europa looks great...
Never driven one and don't know much about them though

Funny thing is, a client of mine has one (dismantled but complete)
It has the original chassis, but also a brand new one (uprated/stiffer version that the previous owner payed 7K in UK pounds for) complete with new brakes, lines, suspension and mini-lite wheels
The body needs some work, but that's simple, cause it's all fibreglass

He paid 1000 euro's for it all
He's not sure wether he should sell it or just put it back together

Now if only my garage was bigger

Dave Eddy,

Colin "something or the other" was Colin Chapman. He was definitely a "car freak". In the 1960's and 1970's his Lotus team fielded some of the best Formula One and Indy car teams on the planet with some of the most famous drivers ever. Ever hear of Jimmy Clark, Jochen Rindt, or Graham Hill? They used Cosworth Ford engines (Mike Costin and Keith Duckworth engineered and manufactured them) that dominated racing for two decades.

For a brief history lesson see this: http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A827598

You better be under 5'-10' or you'll need to cut a hole for your head.

If that's an RHD then check out the passenger. Talk about "sprung weight".

QUOTE (Eric_Shea @ Jun 10 2005, 05:03 PM)

If that's an RHD then check out the passenger. Talk about "sprung weight".

I think it must be dragging the pavement.

I loved the Europa, I bought a '72 Twin Cam from a friend (non mechanical type) who got tired of paying $100 for every little part. I later and foolishly traded it for my friend's Maserati Sebring basketcase which was later sold to fund fixing my 914, thanks Brad. Both were major projects but at least the Lotus didn't rust much. Lotus' have the classic mystic and I've seen them sell for more than 914's probably because lower production numbers. Yes you can occasionally get a deal on a project but be prepared for parts costs IF and when you can find them. Yes they are a bear to get in and out, and rearward vision was limited but I liked their unique design just as I do the 914's. There is no mistaking these are mid-engine. I love the detail of the spread out letters: L O T U S.

I'd like to see the aluminum 901 type 4-valve engine in one. When my '74 Jensen Healey was tuned it was a joy.

Lotus?? HAH! Get a freakin Puma if you want the funnest ride of your life ! A Puma with a 1776, will eat that Lotus for breakfast lunch and dinner.MMmmmmm Lotus for lunch. They look alot better too I've seen a few with 911 engines I have a GTC (convertible) and a friend of mine has a GTI (coupe) with a bad ass body kit our former bosses bodyman made in the early 80's. Pics coming next time I go to his shop.

http://wj2d.100megsdns.com/home.html

Link to more pics of earlier Lotus looking models.

OOps forgot the convertible pic

those are ferrari wannabes j/k, those are nice rides...

I keep thinking your Miles when I see your avatar

QUOTE (Neo914 @ Jun 10 2005, 06:09 PM)

I keep thinking your Miles when I see your avatar

Maybe I am........
Baaaaa. Hush up now Gertrude, I got no time fer yu now I'm trying to type.
Baaaaa Baaaaaa
Alright I'ma cummin

Dam not another one

Thanks for all the advice and information folks.... I do appreciate it.

Contrary to most.. I like the bodystyle.... it's distinctive.

One of the things that really appealed to me about the 914 was the "what the hell kinda car is that?" factor. Get a little closer, realize it says "Porsche" on it....... and it's instantly cool.

This car has the exact same appeal.

I'm not gonna sell the 914 to buy one. If I do get one, it will be in addition to the 914...and it probably wont be anytime soon.

but if it comes down to getting another 914, or a Europa.. I may just opt to try my hand at one of these.

I'm going to keep an eye on ebay.......see what they go for, get an idea of what I can afford, and research what maintenance costs will be..... and then maybe we'll see.

Thanks all!!!

I always thought that they looked like they were sagging in the middle

QUOTE (ninefourteener @ Jun 10 2005, 07:53 PM)

Thanks for all the advice and information folks.... I do appreciate it. Contrary to most.. I like the bodystyle.... it's distinctive. One of the things that really appealed to me about the 914 was the "what the hell kinda car is that?" factor.   Get a little closer, realize it says "Porsche" on it....... and it's instantly cool. This car has the exact same appeal. I'm not gonna sell the 914 to buy one.  If I do get one, it will be in addition to the 914...and it probably wont be anytime soon. but if it comes down to getting another 914, or a Europa.. I may just opt to try my hand at one of these. I'm going to keep an eye on ebay.......see what they go for, get an idea of what I can afford, and research what maintenance costs will be..... and then maybe we'll see. Thanks all!!!

At one time I had my 914, Europa, and Lancia Scorpion. Triple mid-engines!
Dam wish I got that Dino with rebuilt engine for $10k.

In the 70's I owned a Europa. It was a killer autocross car and I sold it to another autocrosser a couple of years later only to watch as he destroyed it with a stuck throttle after an event. Getting in to the thing is more an insertion than an entry. The 914 is much easier to get in and out of. If you have need of a defroster your screwed. Learn to see through the steamed up windows, which will get worse as you sweat and bring more humidity into the cabin.
It was fast and light and felt very light in the steering at speed. I never had electrical problems but somewhere I probably still have my "Lucas, Prince of Darkness" T-shirt. At least I hope so because I have an MGB as well and... well... it will not start.

Rob

QUOTE (brant @ Jun 10 2005, 03:46 PM)

yep the players version was typical 1974 type car. Gold pin stripes on black body...

There was also a white version with gold pin-stripes, referred to as the Special Edition. Tamiya currently makes a 1/24 scale kit of this model.

I always liked Lotus cars and had often thought about getting one.

There is a Canadian 914 owner named Dave who used to post on the bird board who was in the process of restoring an early Europa with a Renault engine. He had a cool website showing the work he had done. He had researched which engines from Renault production cars that could be substituted. He had removed the body from the chassis and had the body on blocks in his driveway when a wind storm flipped it over on its roof.

The reason Colin Chapman went with the Renault engine and transaxle was that it was one of the few longitudinal FWD combinations available. He took it from the front of a production sedan and stuck it in the middle of the Europa.

Back in 1972 a freind got a JPS Lotus real fun car but my super modded Datsun 510 would kick its ass. Funny thing is he still has the Lotus sitting in his backyard rotting away. I tried to buy it a few times but he wouldn't sell it.

He also has a Sunbeam Tiger in the same shape right next to it. What a watse .

Bob

I've always been a big fan of the Europa. The town in New Jersey that I lived in had a Lotus dealership right up the street from the Porsche dealership and I used to stop by and look at the cars at least once a week. I wanted a Europa so bad I couldn't sleep at night. The big day finally arrived when my dad agreed to allow me to purchase a bran new, burgandy with tan interior 1973 twin cam Europa. I was freeking out as we walked inside to purchase the car. I was barely 19 years old. I had become friends with the owner because I was in the showroom more than anyone else. The three of us sat down and he proceeded to talk my dad out of allowing me to buy this car. He said, "I like your son and it would be wrong selling this car to a 19 year old kid to drive everyday". He said, "Theses cars are not made to be driven everyday. You are going to end up hating me and the car". I left the dealership devastated.

Soon all the car magazines (R&T, C&D, Road Test, Motor Trend, SCG, etc) were doing road tests on the new 2 Liter Porsche 914. Theses articles convinced me to order a 1973 914 2.0. Probably the smartest thing I ever did. But I still love the Europa. Someday I would like to have a John Player Special.

QUOTE (BIGKAT_83 @ Jun 11 2005, 06:44 AM)

Back in 1972 a freind got a JPS Lotus real fun car but my super modded Datsun 510 would kick its ass. Funny thing is he still has the Lotus sitting in his backyard rotting away. I tried to buy it a few times but he wouldn't sell it. He also has a Sunbeam Tiger in the same shape right next to it. What a watse . Bob

Bob,

You shamed him so much he never drove it again? How'd you beat the Tiger?

Now I remember another Lotus story. A guy told me he and a friend drove his Lotus off a small cliff and a tree branch literally shot through the bottom of the car between the two of them like the car was made out of paper. They both survived to tell about it...

The Tiger was super fast with a 302 conversion from the 260 and a hard top. Its got me thinking I'll ride by his house Today and see if the Tiger is still there.


Bob

Back in the late '60's a guy transferred into my squadron at Patrick AFB in Cocoa Beach, FL from England with a Renault powered one. According to him, he pestered the factory until they agreed to respray the car in the current JPS team colors of red, white and a gold stripe. The car was stunning. I drove it and remember it a handling like a Formula Ford. Not fast in a straight line, but wow in the corners. If the story was true, it was a one off factory special, wonder where it is now???? By the way, he traded it for a FIAT 1X/9 for "reliability"!