…for a story he wrote, and somehow we got to talking about early 911s, and 2.0- and 2.2-liter engines. And then I mentioned I've been driving the same 914 since high school.

"Four or six?" he asked.

"Was a four, now a six."

He was quiet after that a while. None of the usual "hurrah, you got a six!!" etc. Went on to say that he bought a 914-4 for his son, and that both he and Anita loved that car. That it was "a lovely thing." He had less charitable things to say about the one 914-6 he drove, a GT at the Targa Florio. Wasn't a fan of its chassis, where he found his son's 914-4 to have wonderful balance and handling.

Yeah, about that. While I have to say I looooooove the sound of a 2.2 in my car, I do miss the way the car handled as a four. I've said it before, and this conversation brought it up again for me. Was interesting to hear someone at his level of driving—which included, you know, 917s, Le Mans, the Monte, and one can go on forever—rave about the way a 914-4 chassis felt. He clearly loved the one that was in his family.

Okay, that's it. Just thought I'd take a sec and share a moment that would usually go into the ether.

I find they handle very differently. The 4 is total balance and momentum. The 6 takes more finesse. To be fair, I haven't changed anything from when it was a 4 so...

I'd love to hear more from Vic!

Very cool to get that opinion from Vic.

I think my stock ‘71 is a fun little car. Where it falls short is on acceleration. It’s more of an issue now than when I bought my first 914 in ‘83. Back then, cars were slower and 914’s kept up ok. Now, when I drive my stock car around town, I’m good but I can’t keep up with traffic flow on the highway. Backroads, it’s a fun adult go cart.

Yes, yes, and yes. And it isn't a fair comparison in my case, either, as I left the spring rates but moved to dampers I hate. There is probably some other work to be done to make the car handle better as a six.



+1

The "moment" came for me one day on San Pablo Dam Road. Left lane, the light turns green. I'm not flooring it, but I am kinda on it, winding my tired Type IV out for two-thirds or so of what it's worth, maybe a bit more. And then I look over just in time to notice the woman next to me, in a Honda Odyssey, staring straight ahead as she takes a sip from her coffee mug. Not the kind with a top, either. Just a regular coffee mug from the kitchen cabinets. They didn't have NSX-engined minivans when I started driving my 914 nearly 30 years ago...

I will say the six has solved this problem, and thoroughly.

To me, the horsepower gain supersedes the light handling of the /4.

That sound, oh to hear my 2.4S motor in full song...........

"So I was talking to Vic Elford today....."
Now that is a great opening line !

All i can say is that i could easily get into all sorts of trouble with my tired old stock 1.7L D-Jet engine.

And i have the passenger side puke stains to prove it.


As already mentioned above, the comparison isn't a fair one. I can obviously also get into all sorts of trouble with my 3.6L /6 but it is a completely different kind of trouble.

I remember one of my first auto-cross runs, where i had our very own "Edward Blume" as an instructor and as we were coming out of a tight corner he kept yelling "gas, gas, gas" to which i replied "I'm already on the floor!".

Straight line speed isn't everything.

A light nimble car is infinitely more entertaining and not just a 914 either.
The early 911's are more fun to DRIVE. Later cars handle great but they are now full of brute power and electronics to make up for the short comings of anyone with a license. Back in the day there were no "get out of jail free" passes. You screwed up, you paid the price.
I've heard stories from instructors (God bless them all!) who have ridden with students who regularly bumped up against the "electronics". At least one student was brazen enough to exclaim: "I saved it!" A close friend, mentor and long time PCA instructor had the stones to tell this student "You didn't save anything, the car did!".

Cut to 5:37
Alois Ruf

Our shop has every size air cooled six. 2.0-3.8. All different types of induction and exhaust, as well as an air cooled 962. I know you can install a Tangerine exhaust system on a four and the sound will be better but... not even close to the sound of a 6.

Probably the best time i've had in recent times driving a 914 was the group drives at Hershey and Octeenerfest. Had nothing to do with sound or handling, just having a line of all different colors of 914's in front and behind me was the best 914 day for me.

I have no interest in owning a -6. Never have, never will.

They’re both fun, but different. When I had my ‘74 2.0, I loved it, but the sound and power of a -6 is too appealing for me to go back. I do love hearing of Vic Elford’s comments however and would like to hear Hurley Haywood’s opinion as he also drove one in the early IMSAdays.

Well there is driving and then there Driving.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l19F2YPVey0

I wouldnt mind a six for the noise but right now my 160 hp four sounds good enough and with the price if 6's here in Europe they're just way out of reach.

I know it will vary some but what’s the weight difference? 200lbs ?

I'd bet that is pretty close

but there is a noticeable weight shift, change in balance

the /4 isn't difficult to get to 50/50
but the /6 is about 47/53... moving towards a rear engine car's weigh balance

You and Quick Vic have me thinking about this Pete. I’m going to pop one of my sway bar drop links in the rear and take a drive.

The best medicine, always...



I'm a handling guy first, but...I will say...the noises that come out of my little 2.2 six with Webers, headers, and a sport muffler are surreal. It's a million-dollar soundtrack (literally, these days, thanks to where some 911s have gone). Sounds of Sebring, Le Mans, etc...at your finger and toe tips.

I would, however, like to see what I can do to get the handling back to where it was. It has to be possible—or at least possible to get it to handle better than any early 911, and I have driven a few of those that were very sweet indeed.

Yes, the absurdity of it is what got me to post here and share this. So bizarre to be having a call with Vic Elford...who was driving a 914-6 GT before I was alive, and who not only took the time to speak with me but took more time than he had to and shared his thoughts on so many things. "Gee, I gotta call Vic Elford back...for work."

It seemed like a very long ways from when I used to drive my 914 to a shipping dock in Richmond at 4:00am, with the first coughs of heat coming into the cabin just as I rounded the corner and parked the car for the day.



The best medicine, always...



I'm a handling guy first, but...I will say...the noises that come out of my little 2.2 six with Webers, headers, and a sport muffler are surreal. It's a million-dollar soundtrack (literally, these days, thanks to where some 911s have gone). Sounds of Sebring, Le Mans, etc...at your finger and toe tips.

I would, however, like to see what I can do to get the handling back to where it was. It has to be possible—or at least possible to get it to handle better than any early 911, and I have driven a few of those that were very sweet indeed.




^ Yup.

There is nothing quite like a 2000~pound 914-4 when it comes to just driving further and further into the car. No, the engine ain't much to write home about, but the "chassis" (read: whole-car handling) was one of Porsche's all-time bests and Maybe a 987.2 Boxster Spyder comes closest. Such a momentum machine.

With a six in, my 914 suddenly grew up and got a lot more sophisticated. It went from a 1970s Miata-level or maybe Elise-level sports car (which can be a blast) to something entirely more exotic. Different pleasures, but the call with Vic had me thinking about thoughts I've had since the conversion. Wouldn't go back, however....




This. I shiver when I think about some of the stuff I did in my 914 with friends in high school. And LOL about the first autocross run with the -4 in. Reminds me of the Panamera launch at Road Atlanta. I didn't know the track, and they had us four up with instructors riding up front. I thought I'd be smart and drive third so I could get to know the track before my turn. Then, on the way into Turn 3, David Murry—who I had been coached by for 10+ years—says "You don't need to lift here, Pete." I said, "Yes, I do." He said, "No, you can get on the brakes down there." I said, "I already am on the brakes...this is all there is."

I’m working on the weight differential between the 4 and 6!

“as I left the spring rates but moved to dampers I hate.”

Sounds like your car has a lot of potential to improve. That’s a good thing.

One I get my car running right, I plan to drop in a lightweight battery. The LiPo one will save me at least 30lbs over a normal battery and it’s all weight up high. Jack Olson uses one on his 3.6 so I’m pretty confident it will work for me.

I want to put in my $.02 on this.

Vic Elford is right. Between a stock 4 and a stock 6, the 4 is much more fun. The handling is better, and it is just more fun.

The stock 6 is a bit of a dog. The difference between 95HP in a stock 2.0 4, and the 110HP in a stock 6 is eaten up by the extra weight. And you actually lose some handling compared to a stock 4 because of the weight.

For pure driving enjoyment, I will take the modified 4 over the stock 6 all day long, hands down. Betty's car will out pull the stock 6 we have, and out corner it too. Some of that is due to the 30+ years I have had to tweak the setup on her car's handling, but I don't think the stock 6 will catch her mod 4. I have only had 4 months with the 6 so that will be proven out in the future.

Now a modified 6, that is a whole 'nother kettle of fish. You get the handling the same on both the mod 4 and the mod 6, the 6 will be much faster and more fun to drive. An MFI six is a pain to live with on a daily basis, but it is a sheer joy to drive on a twisty mountain road. It outruns the 4, and it handles just as well.

So Mr Elford is right, if you put it in context of the 914s he is familiar with.

regarding the weight again....

its more than just the 200 lbs
I took 500 lbs out of my /6

but even with the removal of the 500 lbs... the balance is still not the same as a /4

you can move somethings around... but you can't get the car back to 50/50 again

Yes, Vic said he swore off the 914-6 after one experience with them as training cars at the Targa. Get the sense the 914-4 he bought for his son (and the whole family used) was a very stock, or stock-ish car. Anita put a photo of it up on Facebook, may do some digging to find it. A lot of time has passed since his drive in the factory GTs, and a lot of people have found improvements when it comes to 914-6 handling, where the factory dropped the 914-6/916 program after just 3-4 years (depending on how you want to look at it).

Should also be noted: Vic loved the way the SWB 911 handled, and preferred it to the LWB cars...and often notes that he was the only one.

What's so cool about Vic is that, despite all he's done, he's so very human about things. He knows what he likes and will share his feelings and preferences openly but isn't "I'm right for everyone else" about it. Cool dude.

As for your experience, it tracks with mine very closely. And yes, a modded six can be made to handle very well. Interesting idea about the lightweight battery above. Forgot about that notion a while back, thinking those still had to be sorted. Maybe it's time to start looking at that again. I estimate the 2.2 six added 150~ pounds to the car, and getting 30 back out, and up high, would be nice.

Jack uses this one.Weight is 3.75lbs

Vic Elford will be the Honorary Guest at the PCA Space Coast region zone 12 50th anniversary Banquet at the Daytona 500 club this saturday evening. Followed by a breakfast the following Sunday morning. If you are near by, breakfast will be at the Fairfield Inn next to the speedway.

This is exactly the point Alois Ruf makes in the video.

Been a long time since I watched that video!

Agree: There is no compensation for a lack of lightness.

However, even a 914-6 conversion is still around the weight Alois is excited about in a 901...1000~kg, or even a bit less than 2241 lbs. And, of course, what we are talking here is the sensation and handling change in a 914 by adding 125-200 lbs in roughly the best place possible (esp. when weighed with driver in).

This video jogs another memory: The very early 911s I've driven, 1964-1965 in particular, are wonderful things but in my experience aren't "light" in every sensation. They had steering that loaded up in turns and felt "pregnant." And, in the words of a friend, the messages don't get better from there. The last 1965 911 I drove was kind of awful in tight bends that a 914, 993, 986, or 996 devours. In fact, even a 356C handled better on that road. The only place the 65 911 was really nice was guiding it down a road with super gentle curves using fingertips. Then it was indeed pretty lovely. Sharper corners at 5/10ths up to 7 or 8/10ths? Not so much.

Of course, Porsche did a LOT to fix the 911's handling between 1964 and 1969, and never really stopped...

I do wonder sometimes what the 914 would have been developed into had it not been axed after just seven model years.

We built a wide body 86 with a 3.2 and backdated it to a long hood. Very wide wheels and tires. Should have been a steamroller to drive on the road but it was just the opposite. Steering felt like a 914. Light and playfull at any speed. Everyone loved to drive it. Most of the suspension was stock. Setup was just perfect.

^ I believe it.

But: That's a later 911—and "we" (Porsche + everyone outside of Porsche) have learned a lot in the meantime. Some of the products out there are truly amazing. The ball joints of the late 1960s made a huge change, and Porsche just kept moving forward with a lot of small and not so small improvements. By the time the 911 was into the 1970s, it was pretty nice—and you can make them wonderful. Ditto for the 1980s cars. I've driven SCs with 225s up front and 930s with 265s (!!!) up front that had sweet steering (to my complete shock) and even sweeter overall handling. The Ruf CTR shouldn't work, given its power, weight, and tire sizes (500 hp with 205s up front and 255s out back) but it does. Here come all the vagaries when it comes to handling.

big 4 > 6

Great discussion. I have a little different spin on the 914-4 story. I have been driving the Alien across the country since 2004. Brute power, High center feel in hard corners but with fat rubber I never felt like I couldn't throttle steer the car if needed.

We have taken the 128 along the Colorado River to the RRC in the Alien more than once. Great fun road with some twisters and some spirited high speed sections.

Fast forward to the time when we finished 7 of 9. The engine was a 2.0 with a 96mm flat top piston set, no head gaskets, stock cam and F.I. and a lightened flywheel. Low polar moment and nice throttle response with the lightened flywheel.

We were heading down the 128 on the way to Moab and got in behind the tourist crowd. I as others saw an opening to scoot by. As I pulling out to execute the pass I rapidly realized I was not in the Alien and clearly in the wrong gear. Seconds later I slipped back in line behind the tourist and had a talk with myself.

You can drive a 4 hard in the twisters but get the rev's up a little. Changes the experience completely.

Sadly, Very shortly after we sold 7 of 9 to Dennis I got a call. He had been driving the car for about a week. He call to cuss me out because he loved the car so much he now had to have a 6. He was completely obsessed with the idea. He and I spent a couple months searching all the corners of the world for the right car.

He ended up purchasing a nice numbers matching factory 6. We were having a conversation one day several months after the purchase. He was expressing his disappointment in the way the 6 handled. He stated he would much rather drive 7 of 9. He described it as faster with better handling. After reading your Vic story I thought I would share Dennis' comments about his experience.

There is something to be said about drive it like you stole it.

The worst speeding ticket I've had in 38 years of driving happened in a -4. Just sayin.

Vic evidently never drove a 200 hp 6 with Elephant Racing Street Track full suspension. He may be singing a different song because I love the way mine handles. Add great tires and it’s a helluva package.

I have a BMW HP2 motorcycle. Perhaps I could pull the engine out of it and put it in my 914. It would be a 2 then. How good would that handle

I couldn't say it better myself.... but I'll try.

The /4 in stock 2.0 form and 165 tires is light nimble and fun. It does everything you want fairly well except accelerate.

The /6 in 150 HP or more form goes harder, but now you have to think about stopping, and the chassis can pull apart.

I'm getting older so the thrill of killing a 911 off the line is more or less in the rear view mirror.

I'm more intrigued by lightening a /4 and getting the feel right vs building your own personal 2500 lb Boxster.

Racing is different. So is the sound.

I'm guessing the final result wouldn't have a 50/50 weight distribution after the engine conversion....

I'm still stuck on the absurdity of your title line Pete. "I was talking to Vic Elford today..."

Each time I open the forum, I get stopped in my tracks by that. Quite a life you've built for yourself...


Back to Vic. Most of us shouldn't concern ourselves with his critique of the 914-6. Drivers like Vic Elford and Hurley Haywood and the like have tuned their bottoms to a level most of us will never approach. I'd guess Vic would be happier with my 3.2 914 or Andy's 3.6, but truly drivers like Vic are all about the drive. To him, I'm sure it was just an observation. I mean, he drove the 917! My impression of that car is that it's all violence and fist fight to drive. Of course, he didn't have a 917-4 to compare it to.

Don't get so hung up on a 50-50 weight distribution. Most mid-engine race cars have more weight on the rear wheels anyway.

--DD

I’ll bet he’d love a 2258...

I have to speak up...

Can't say how many times I've heard people claim how a factory 6 was slow, or a lump
or any number of other names made to detract from it.
I bought my 6 in 1973 and drove it "in the day".
I have to say there wasn't a contemporary affordable sport car at the time that left me wishing I hadn't bought it.

Now today, when a 200 hp Honda Civic is pretty normal, yeah, a small 2 liter 6
isn't competitive.. but back then a stock 6 did OK for itself.

Maybe I'm blind, but I don't see people on the early S forums complaining how slow the earlier 911's were....
But judging by what I read here, the heavier 911T with a factory engine must have been a real dog..
Not worth owning apparently..

What am i missing here ??

I think any discussion of the actual engine output of either the -4 or -6 misses Vic’s point which is the actual subject of this thread.

The 914 handles differently because the -6 is heavier. One could say, if there never had been a -4 no one would care. I have beaten late 911 Turbos in capable hands in a -4. Their handling is artwork. That, I think is Vic’s point, and the subject of this thread. Any discussion of which car is better or worth owning or not is background noise.

One needs to keep in mind the gravity of the person who said it. If Vic Elford said the Ferrari Enzo is a dog of a chassis, the room should be silent because so few can argue with him. Because, well, he’s Vic Freakin’ Elford!

^ Precisely.

Vic never even mentioned power differences, engine noise, etc (he raced everything from 2L 911s to 911Rs to RSRs to 908s and 917s, after all...not to mention Ferraris and far more).

He was only talking about handing balance, and that's really all I've ever heard him talk about, so he may have a chassis fetish. Like I do, and, I suspect, most 914 drivers do.

And I found his comments on the 914-6 intriguing, and a sort of confirmation on what I've felt since converting a car I drove and loved as a four for 20+ years. I wouldn't go back to a four, but I get what he's saying and have from the first time I drove the car with a six in it. I think I have some work to do on handling, but for those who are thinking about converting or a big four or a Subaru, etc....as I once was....I say think twice because nothing handles like a 914-4.

I believe the Boxster is the evolutionary descendant of the 914.

I thought when Porsche introduced the Boxster, they didn't even mention the 914 ancestry.

That car brings back memories of reading VW & Porsche magazine.

Spiritual descendent, yes. Despite the marketing to link the mass-produced Boxster to the 550/718, it's much closer to the 914 with its two trunks, 911-shared front suspension, interesting & fully sealed top concept, and mass production numbers.

Evolutionary descendent is tougher. The line is broken between 1976 and 1996, a big gap. Then again, both were developed using the front suspension of their contemporary 911, and I guess one could say the 986 was the evolutionary beneficiary of everything in the 996...a car that resulted from lessons learned in 911s from 1965-1998. Feels a bit thin to me, but the argument has some merit.

In handling terms, Boxsters > 914s in every way but one critical item: weight. They sure are nice, though!

Yum.

There is a lot to like in that pic...

Vic's comments make me think a lot more critically about other conversions I've pondered. Any wet motor is going to be heavier still, also any iron V8. I had thought of the Subaru as a grandchild of sorts of the -6. But it is a wet motor. As Pete has said, I would never consider going back to a -4 as my -6 is amazing, I have no regrets. But, I agree, the 914-4 with sway bars is the best handling car I have ever driven. (lots came without sway bars and were dreadful handling cars)

Love is...........?

...........driving a fast car slowly
...........driving a slow car fast

My two cents -

the faster -6 variants push the chassis to the edge of its capabilities - you are using brakes to scrub off the extra speed which always upsets balance, and the car will feel less balanced and more skittish. You are moving faster through corners and you have to work more to keep the lines as smooth even when using just engine braking. Larger tires and suspension setup can only help so much. You are at the edge of the chassis performance and when the chassis does break loose, it does so much more abruptly and in less of linear fashion.

In comparison, with the -4 you are working more to hold power and speed into corners, which means less braking and more reliance on maintaining steady speed through the corner, and consequently the feel is more balanced and flowing and far less abrupt. It's the difference between driving a Sunbeam Alpine and driving a Sunbeam tiger - yes there is more weight but the considerable extra power is what makes the Tiger more of a handful.

This is true with motorcycles as well - the larger engine variants push more speed and require harder braking and far more skittish balance than smaller engine bikes, where you can keep the revs up and hold a smoother line. That's why beginning riders are always encouraged to learn their chops on a 250 instead of a 650.

BTW, somewhere in my collection of documentary materials we put together for our film "The Man & Le Mans", I have some lovely b-roll from the original set of Le Mans that show the various 914-6s doing amazing drive by and corner shots. Pretty sure Vic may be one of the drivers - he and Derek Bell and David Piper and Jonathan Williams and a few other amazing drivers were hired to drive the cars for Le Mans. They would line up and the cameras would do take after take, then switch into different cars and do it over again, while the writers in the trailers tried to hammer out a working script. This went on for months.

These drivers had real brass ones. I was fortunate to spend time listening to Derek and Vic and David recount their Le Mans stories. They risked their lives, drove amazing cars at amazing speeds, and for little pay compared to what today's drivers make. They are humble, warm, authentic and engaging people, and they were Steve McQueen's heroes. Mine too.

A few years ago, PCA had Vic Elford speak at a dinner at Circuit of the Americas. I got to meet him in person and get his autograph.

He is an incredible story teller. So vivid and eloquent.

He told the story about the 917L at LeMans. They were doing 245 MPH on Mulsanne at night in the rain. That includes not lifting when they went over the infamous hump. That takes some real cojones to do that. He talked about the engineers that were busy with their slide rules trying to figure out why they didn't make 250 MPH. I think it was Vic Elford who reminded them that the tires would grow about an inch in diameter at speed. That is enough to affect the gearing.

They don't make drivers like him any more.