So I am hearing this is a very attractive setup for 4+ cylinder engines, and can be made to work with ITB setups for a flat six, such as PMO's. The 4BBL pricing sure is right, and it's said to be "self tuning" and a dream to work with/on.

Anyone have any experience of this, or know of a Porsche engine running it?

I know of a corvair 6 (in a bus) that was running off a Holly. It worked, but wasn't perfect. It ran rich IIRC.

Zach

I would much prefer MS3 Pro EVO. Im considering this system for the 914 as I still cant figure out my hot start issue and its been almost 2 years.

Way to much cool stuff with this system.

https://www.diyautotune.com/product/ms3pro-...agement-system/

I've been eyeballing one of these for Dads old Chevy: Go EFI 4 600HP System with timing control.

I wouldn't do a center mount FI on a 914, runners are too wide, plus it's backwards engineering. Essentially it's TBI from the 80s.

For the 914n6 I've got my eye on ECUMASTER EMU BLACK STANDALONE ECU. Overkill but pre-programmed for the VQ35 swap. A little cheaper without the Autotune.
I've read the DIYEFI/MS3 tech is not up to today's standards.

I have been looking at these for by V8 car.

Bob B

That Goefi is an awesome looking piece of hardware! Reminds me of the Holley Projection units but with modern tunability.

When I think about EFI, I like the idea of the "who" behind the system.

Any company can go out, but I put more stock in Holley or something like Andrew pointed out (the MS3 unit). I think about some of the old Haltech or other random systems, and trying to keep a 368 or 486 laptop going to support them.

Only way I'd do the Holley or MS3 is if I could use ITBs made for a flat six (i.e. PMOs). But the prices of these units are getting pretty interesting compared to Motec systems of not long ago—even the "budget" ganged four-cylinder Motec setups where you controlled a flat six like an inline three. Now we are seeing price points that make a conversion from a good, sellable set of 911 Webers pretty interesting.

It isn't a bad time to be a car enthusiast...

The ECUMaster stuff looks quite good. I'm dying to try it out. Their sales and engineering organizations are pretty engaged with consumers (especially the guys at ECUMaster USA) too which is really nice.



Who is good, but AFAIK the Holley system is quite under-performing compared to almost everything else available. They're famed as a carb company, not an ECU manufacturer. IMHO you're better off going with component from someone who specialized in the engine controls/data acquisition market.

Companies like Haltech are still around and make good products-it's a somewhat unrealistic expectation that a company will allow backwards ECU compatibility with all of their software package changes. You face the same issues in the industrial world with needing old computers to talk to ancient electronics, even those with companies still in existence making high end products.

One of the main reasons why I like MS so much. They do a LOT to make sure they have backwards and forwards compatability. Its just the hardware itself that they change to make the packaging better and have a more "All in one" unit. Thats really the only difference in their systems.

Microsquirt is a hair different, but its designed to be a simple fully enclosed unit for cheaper than anything else.

So this is for a /6? What is the cars use and your budget,
Many systems can get spendy fast. DIY isn't too bad, but probuilt/installed and dyno time gets into big bucks.

I'd stick with a known system, then you have lots of help if you run into a snag.

For MS you likely can get the maps for a similar engine build. I'd go over to the pelican parts forum and check out some of the EFI builds.

Clewett uses TEC systems.
SDS is likely the easiest system to tune for the amateur who can't afford dyno time or the learning curve.

All three have been around for ages.

Pete, I still recall our conversation a decade or so back at that drive-in in Napa Valley. You were right of course, the SDS system I used was only a bit better than a well tuned carb. Perhaps in its defense, it was controlling ITB’s that had massive vacuum fluctuations. Your argument, that the factory systems were so much more sophisticated was on my mind when I decided to go with the factory system on the 3.2 that ultimately found its way into my car.
I do think the MS3 described by Andyrew is a much more advanced system and it’s hard to believe SDS is in the same price range. I plan on using this system with the new engine I’m putting in my 240Z.

I'm going to experiment with Speeduino, that works with the TunerStudio software. I already bought v0.3 version with the VR conditioner (waiting arrival) and is well supported in the forum. The complete thing for less than 200 bucks. Have 4 ignition and 4 injection outputs and support sequential ignition/injection. Anyway I'm going to use it in a wasted spark configuration, since I have a Subaru 6 (semi sequential).

If you want to know more, here is the link.

https://speeduino.com/wiki/index.php/Speeduino

https://speeduino.com/forum/app.php/page/buy

Did you try the SDS in TPS only? Solved all my issues.
You have to go into the hidden coding to change it.

For cheap there's also a pro system out of south africa called gotech MFI.
About $500 for a complete system (ECU and harness) includes shipping. They warned me shipping was slow, 6-8 weeks.

http://www.gotech.co.za/
They also have a FB page. https://www.facebook.com/gotechecu/

I am running a microsquirt (MS2) system with ITBs and a wasted spark. I am pretty happy with it so far. It has a pretty steep learning curve but we are starting to get all of the kinks worked out. Some of the components have had issues, but I was able to go to the local auto parts store and get what I needed. Hopefully we will be able to get it on the dyno next week for some fine tuning.

Anyone using this Magasquirt package from the Dub Shop? http://thedubshop.com/dual-throttle-body-f...gnition-type-4/

Looks like a nice complete package but seems a bit pricey.

Kelvin

Click to view attachment

have one new in box if some one wants to give it a try. Pretty simple.

BTW, SDS has always had great support for me.

MS3 Pro is interesting

If I had the $$$$$ I would just order up a Bosch Motorsport unit.

No one is criticizing the SDS support. It’s the function I was talking about.

A number of good options. I would probably choose any adaptable (or stock) Bosch Motronic system over any of them, but that is rarely feasible.

Hear the criticism about Holley's system, but still interested. Yes, it's a carburetor company, but perhaps it's a solid company that's seen the future and is bringing a good product to market—learning from the existing systems. At the very least, my mechanic and a colleague of his he trusts seem very interested. So, too, am I. Especially if it presents a solid system that's an alternative to carbs or Motec. Whether it's better than MS or the others is the real question. Not seeing the answer to that here, but it may be too early for that. And the good news is that there are at least two systems detailed here that do appeal to me....

Did not wish imply that you where Rob. I am just saying they have been great support for a basic system. I also followed your issues and wondered what was up with it. My guess is the ITBs and vacuum pulses.

I am not one to believe you need more than you might need. So it is neat to get all the "features" but if you only need to control the ignition and fuel timing then, the simpler the better.

I would drop one of the Holley systems on my boat, but then it has a Merc Drive and Engine that is really a GM small block so why not. Not sure I am ready to put a Holley in my Porsche.

IDK if you have seen videos in youtube from Cleetus McFarland. That guy have a "death cart" (based on a Corvette) with a twin turbo LS engine doing over 1k HP and is running on a Holley EFI system. It seems you won't go wrong with this system.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9i7Nm7evh8w

Ya but the Holley efi was essentially designed for a modern V8, especially a LS motor. Not to be used on anything like some of the others. The Megasquirt systems were designed to be as versital as possible.


Also Cletus is making like 14-1600hp. They just put a larger exhaust housing on and their old Dyno numbers were like 11-1200 wheel hp when maxed out. It's fun watching the progress of his cars, but the fluff stuff is Meh.

Apparently, Holley recently released a system set up to work on anything...and one that works very well on six ITBs for a flat six, according to a master Porsche builder. I'm guessing that's the PMO setup, unfortunately priced to keep carbs worthy of equal consideration.

Fwiw, one thing the V8 peeps get right is power, and how to make it. They understand it, and are focused on it in a way Porsche people aren't. Lots of people in my industry make fun of GM, but the smart ones respect GM Powertrain.

Meanwhile, threads like these are what has kept me away from MS:
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?sho...7904&st=600

Seven years and still working to get it right. Carbs look wonderful by comparison, and I wouldn't expect better results because I definitely wouldn't put myself ahead of Zach or Mark or any of the others involved.

Motec systems set up by pros seem to work really well, but used to (used to) make MFI and Motronic look cheap. And now there's a Holley system that at least one Porsche engine builder is saying works great for 1/4 the price of Motec, or 1/2~ the price of a "budget" Motec system? A price point that might start making sense if I sell my Webers and Electramotive ignition system? Color me interested...

Holley seems to have a few efi systems, which one are you talking about?

Still trying to figure out which one went onto the 911 engine(s) I heard about, hence my question to the World here...to see if any of our builders have gone a similar route.

Will pursue, as the glowing review got me interested. I believe it had to do with UI, compatibility with existing ITB units, ease of setup, and ease of tuning.

pete

Chris Baker (tygaboy) is going to use the Holley HP EFI package on his LS3 running individual throttle bodies so I'd see no reason same system couldn't be used on a flat /4 or flat /6.

They claim:



The ECU alone is $1100 which isn't too bad. Personally if I was to do the aftermarket EFI again I'd go Haltech (no more DOS based programs ) (the more I read about the Holley HP/Avenger and Dominator ecus the more I like them).

I know Hot Rod and the other V8 biased magazines really like the Holley EFI stuff. I know for the many older hot rod guys the main appeal to this new generation of EFI is plug and play. Not everyone wants to spend the time and money for dynos to get the EFI to play nice with the motor.

"Self tuning" is like the holy grail for some people. I think there would be more aftermarket EFI installs on 914s if someone knew for a fact that in one weekend they could remove their carbs or D-jet/L-jet and install MS or Haltech or the Holley and know that once they turn the key their motor will run as good or better than before without having to turn on the laptop and figure out which button to press or 3D map to play with.


The Dominator ECU can support dual drive by wire TB's, that would be neat with a /4 or /6 , no linkage would really clean up the install and avoid some issues people have with them.

I had a lot of shitty life stuff slowing me down. Basically took 3 years off playing with cars. By all means put yourself ahead of me. I'm just slightly more advanced then an ape with a dull rock. But I can say that my car runs better now then it ever did with carbs.

Zach

I worry about “Hot Rod and other V8 biased” magazines actually carrying bias into the editorial side of the house. Do they really like it? Or, do they really like the resulting ad dollars when the editorially ‘like’ it.

That did cross my mind when writing that.

I often suspect the latter, especially for EFI systems. Mainstream magazines don't generally seem to cover the really cool stuff in terms of vehicle controls/electronics.

The HP EFI is rather low on I/O, even for the price. The Dominator has a bunch of I/O, but at $2000 is getting into the range of higher end stuff with likely better control strategies.

^ It's a fair worry with some of those books. I don't know that side of the game all that well, but I get the sense the editorial freedom we enjoyed at Ross (Sports Car International, Excellence, Bimmer, Corvette, etc) wasn't too common.

The innovative stuff isn't going to come from a corporation, it's going to be the hungry single purpose upstart.
The Holley specs per dollar isn't that impressive, but the tablet gauge cluster is nice.

Advertisers are always awesome in the mag business. They will even fund an article or three...

For a GM V8 It looks like all the parts for the Self Tuning Holley Sniper with a small diameter EFI Distributor that will fit in the 914 without cutting the rear trunk wall is around $1,750. With all sensors, fuel pump clamps fuel line in a master kit as well as a small screen monitor for set up.

Up to 650 HP.

I think this is what I need.

Bob B

Again I ask did you try TPS only? I already know the answer...you didn't.
IIRC your reply to this question was if it won't run proper in MAP it's not a good system.

So basically you're blaming SDS for your improper tuning and a bad engine/intake/cam choices for your expectations.
BTW I'm pretty sure I'm running the same cam you did.

The 3.2 with stock FI is a comparison, one is a stock (or near stock) engine and the other is is a hot cam, ITB, poor vacuum, double stock HP engine.

All aftermarket FI systems with ITB's, hot cams and therefore poor vacuum signals have issue with the MAP sensor.
MS is no different, same issue you have to run in what they call "alpha-N" which is exactly what SDS calls TPS only. MS does have an advantage in a single TB with hot cam app as you can help TPS (blend) with MAF sensor.

Running TPS only I've found only a few cons. In stop and go traffic below 3000rpm the engine has trouble at a steady speed. You have to slowly accelerate/decelerate or stay above 3000rpm.
You have to program in a TPS fuel cut or it backfires on deceleration.
The other is in TPS only you turn off altitude correction, exact same thing happens running MS in aplha-N, but the SDS has a rich/lean knob that can be used to easily correct this.

Other than that it runs great.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9Xmmf9G7Ns



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aaFf14DgUs8

Again I wasn't really hauling it as it's hard to hold the camera, talk, shift, steer all at the same time. This car will haul ass when I wan't it to, at 180hp and 1700lbs it has a respectable power to weight ratio.
That's a 90 mph speedo, I've it right around pinned back at zero a few times.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPX0ssYRWts

My apologies to those trying to learn from this thread. SDS was mentioned only because of a conversation I had with Pete about it on a BBQ/Tour day. It is pretty Stone Age compared to what is available now. Randall tried it in TPS and it was a compromise at best.

Although I autocross occasionally and do lots of track days, my car primarily sees street time. I can’t be bothered with rich/lean knobs and such. That’s great for aircraft which was originally the SDS target market, but there are just so many better systems now.

Sadly, I am sure Mark will keep pushing TPS and SDS and probably want us all to sing “Oh Canada.” He can’t help himself. It’s all he apparently knows. I know, that others who ran SDS in TPS couldn’t get it to run right in traffic. 10 years ago, I knew a dozen locals running SDS. All of them have moved on.

Suspect we are turning a corner from aftermarket EFI, or at least hope we are. For me, the dream is to avoid the nightmare that some here have experienced.

I've seen that accomplished with Motec set up by professionals for 10-20 years now at wild costs, but less often (never?) with the "lesser" systems. Given the leaps in other digital technology, I guess I am simply interested in seeing the latest take on how the cat can be skinned.

pete

Honestly I don't think we are, I've seen more bells and whistles, complexity, a bit more flexibility on ignition and sensor choices, reliability, information (forum help), but nothing I'd truly call PEFI innovation in 10-15 years.
NA Fuel injection still doesn't beat carbs at WOT.
Where FI shines is fuel economy, maintenance (one sorted) and turbo applications, so we're talking daily driver.

To me SDS is the easiest to tune as often no dyno time is required, but all of the systems are complex to install and do right.
The reason I like SDS is it's relative simplicity for the backyard wrench. I've personally seen way too many FI projects languish or be altogether abandoned.

Why did I go with webers on my NA 914/6 conversion?
On a low mileage, low use summer play car I didn't feel PEFI was worth the huge time investment, complexity and cost for the cars application.

Plus a /6 runs real good on sorted carbs and I got a smokin' deal on my carbs and twinplug dizzy.

What is your project? stock engine? rebuilt? good used? performance build? turbo? budget?
Or are you looking for something to write an article on?

Clean slate performance street /6 on a occasional driver fun car I'd spend my money on the piston and cylinders, cams, heads and headers and buy PMO carbs and a 123 dizzy.
In this scenario I'd only be looking at FI if my budget wasn't a concern.

No PEFI system does anything for horsepower, it just can run things that the stock FI systems can't. It also can help with race G forces, but PMO has addressed most of the weber issues.
FI does get better MPG and does shine at managing turbo systems, but again no true HP gain.

Fancy electronics don't change the fact N/A HP still comes from the bore and stroke, piston design, CR, cams, headers and heads.

I saw this motor on Hemmings today, I bet one could adapt the Holley EFI to this:


Click to view attachment

bet it doesn't run to well

Yes and I agree I bet it runs reasonably well though probably not got for Hi performance apps..

I considered that as a option using FI tech injection..

You can get almost anything to work

With large duration cams and ITB's any engine is going to have vacuum issues. If you want to avoid these issues with SDS, MS or any of the other other systems you must do a single TB plenum type intake and use a cam(s) with less duration.
Jake messed with a system called Kit Carson (sp?) back in early 2000 they abandoned it and I believe the issues they were having was to do with ITB/vacuum. Jake then went with SDS largely because of my success on a single plenum application, but he to ran into ITB/vacuum issues.

You look at Porsche and all other manufactures, once they went with EFI all their systems have a single TB plenum intake and cams with less duration. This have everything to do with the poor vacuum signal and the mandate to have a smooth performance curve.

Why I take issue with Rob knocking SDS is he has no experience with PEFI other than one engine that was misconfigured to his expectations. It doesn't matter what system whether it be MS running "alpha-N" or SDS "TPS only" he would have ran into the same issue.
He never tried TPS only, in fact he refused the suggestion and he never did MS, he just gave up and sold the engine.

MS has the exact same issue, do a google search using keywords "megasquirt","ITB", "vacuum", "apha-N", "TPS only", "cam duration" and you will see this is not just an SDS issue. Go over to the Pelican parts forum and you will find most MS ITB hot cam application they have to resort to alpha-N (TPS only) programming.
This is the point I was trying to get across, it's not just SDS that has this issue, all systems do.

I ran SDS with a basicly stock D-jet single TB/plenum intake, 2.0 D-jet injectors, on both a stock 1.8 and a 2.0 with a mild scat C-25 cam, both engine ran flawlessly with none of the ITB/vacuum issues affecting the MAP sensor. Nothing spectacular as FI doesn't add HP, but you couldn't tell the difference between L-jet, D-jet or the SDS. The 2.0 I ran for about 4 years with the programer never installed after initial tuning. It behaved no differently than a stock FI system.
I have installed several systems in customers cars this way, with similar stockish engines and all have performed flawlessly.

Does the Holley have an edge on this issue?
My educated guess is no, thier test beds are LS engines that have a single TB/plenum and engines using a V8 carb manifold which is a lot like a plenum. I would go over to V8/FI forums and see if they have the same ITB/vacuum issues with aftermarket FI, my bet is they do.

My 2056 running SDS, big itb’s, a fairly large cam, on MPS. Yup, mps. My friend and tuner was dead set that with time and patience we’d get this done. The couple auto x events the car has been to it has demonstrated great TQ and throttle response. So SDS, while not having the range of options of others, still is a player in my opinion.

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?sho...99440&st=20

I have been tempted to play around with the tps tuning, but it is running great and just so much fun now... maybe this fall or next spring.

Big lift isn't a problem, large duration and overlap is the issue with any EFI system.
Do you remember what cam you're running?

I saw the Holley system at the Big Boy Toy Store at Hot August Nights yesterday. In the display, there was nothing but mock V8 setups. I asked if the system could be used on a Porsche 6 or Type IV? For a moment, the looked at me like I was a bug on a cake at his picnic then recovered quickly and said basically “sure.” Which I took to mean buy it and try it...

Intake: lift, .500, duration, 276, duration @ .050, 240. 110 lobe center
Exhaust: lift, .500, duration, 284, duration @ .050, 249. 110 lobe center

I don’t think the duration is that wild, but much more than stock.

What say you, Mark?

Yes that has less duration than my cam by about 20 degrees @ .050
That would improve your vacuum signal to the MPS.

Is that a WEB 119?
David could you please copy down all your values plus engine specs and send them to me? No rush, but I'd like to add them to my list. You should always have a copy for yourself as well.
Just a FYI if you wanted you can get SDS to upgrade your system to EM-5 spec with full PC data logging for $590. You also would need the values copied down for this.

This is the point I'm trying to get across, blaming a system for a build with incompatible components, in Rob's case likely a way too aggressive carb cam and his only single experience with SDS (or any other system), is in no way a fair unbiased comparison.
Much akin to saying a 914 is underpowered terrible handling POS, when all you've ever driven was one poor condition rusted out 1.7 with a beat engine.

For the record, I have never met Mark Henry. I have never had a conversation with him. He was not present during any of my conversations with Jake Raby. Jake knew exactly what my intentions were before I built either of the Raby Kit motors. Therefore neither motor had an “aggressive carb cam.” I didn’t “give up” and sell the motor, and go to the six cylinder. Going to the six was always the plan from the start. From the day I got the car, that was always the plan. After getting the second engine running and tuned, I put it up for sale. It was for sale for almost a year before it sold and during that time, I drove the car and tuned the car. I have a group of friends here in Reno Tahoe who also went through an SDS system. They all moved on as it isn’t nearly sophisticated enough for their/our needs. Before he gets to attacking their abilities, two are techs at a Toyota dealership, one is a mechanical engineer. One was the owner of Motorsport’s Dynamics in Sacramento. His opinion? He called it “too simple. Not much better than carbs.” Which it is. He builds 700HP drift motors for factory teams. I’ll go with his opinion over yours.
Before buying the SDS system, I had a long conversation with someone who I believe said his name was Ross. He knew that I intended to use itb’s, he knew that my intention was 60% street, 30% track day, and 10% autocross. He never expressed any reservations about my plan until, I said I was having MPS tuning problems. Then, it was the itb’s and I should possibly try TP tuning. Not why I paid over a grand for the system. I could have stayed with my Dellortos.
As far as trying to invalidate my experience, I’m pretty darned educated, I can figure it out, after all, if a mechanic can get it...