Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: What class to run competitively?
914World.com > The 914 Forums > The Paddock
RFoulds
Preparing a new race car build. Would like to run. Fairly stock 2.0 and don’t want to get into a class where the 914 won’t be competitive. If I have a fully caged and braced tub, modified suspension, modest weight reduction and a stock but carbed 2.0, what class would you suggest would be competitive to build toward? For VARA, POC, SVRA most likely.
Looking through all their GCR’s and classifications, there seems to be a few different ways to go.
Suggestions from those that have been there would be appreciated.
2mAn
QUOTE(RFoulds @ Oct 12 2018, 08:18 PM) *

Preparing a new race car build. Would like to run. Fairly stock 2.0 and don’t want to get into a class where the 914 won’t be competitive. If I have a fully caged and braced tub, modified suspension, modest weight reduction and a stock but carbed 2.0, what class would you suggest would be competitive to build toward? For VARA, POC, SVRA most likely.
Looking through all their GCR’s and classifications, there seems to be a few different ways to go.
Suggestions from those that have been there would be appreciated.


Depending on how modified it is or at least how modified looks, you fall in D-Production with VARA, which is the group Ive been prepping my Datsun Roadster for.

Theres VARA-University on 2/2 & 2/3 next year. I plan to be there, but Im not 100% sure which car I will be there in...

The biggest thing is reading the rules closely, and finding a group you can run with. I think in SoCal VARA is your best bet
Racer
I would encourage attending events by the various groups.. talk to any 914 owners actually out there running to get the scoop.. What did they build and why? How do they like it? What would they have done differently? - Car/Class/Organization etc.

Racing = $$$, no matter how you look at it. Do you want to win your class or just run with other 914s? And as mentioned, always Read the Rulebook First!
Jetsetsurfshop
Bob from Naro Motorsports was telling me that his PCA region created a vintage class. I thought this was interesting. I can't remember the details, maybe he'll chime in and share.
Attending events and see whats going on in your area is a great idea. I mean, I love my 914 but the E30's and the Spec Miata's race hard and have a lot of competition. I did notice that my race group (NASA) has a great Spec 944 class running in the middle of the country and we have one guy signed up for next weekend at Sebring. I would hate to have no one to mix it up with. He gets a first place trophy every event!
You can also just make a 914 fit somewhere. Theres a couple 914's that have an LS engine that eat Corvettes and 911's all day long. It only takes money. You can make anything work with enough cash!
driving.gif
Jetsetsurfshop
I was just looking at the original post.
NASA has a HP to weight class.
My car has a 2258 with a cam and carbs.
I had to add some weight but I fall into the ST5 class. They have a calculator that pretty cool.
Heres the link.

https://form.jotform.com/drivenasa/st-tt-ca...sification-form

I'm racing next weekend against a Miata and a CRX. Will see how I do...
driving.gif
Racer
PCA Club Racing does offer some vintage classes now... I believe they are displacement based...ie.. Over 2.5liters and Under 2.5liter for example. I could be off on the size, but its been away to get the "older" cars and drivers back from the garage and on the track without the need to compete against new GT3RS's etc.
Driver174
I’m running a 914/4 - 2.0 with VARA in DP class. My car seems to be competitive, but required engine modifications beyond stock. Sticking with stock bore and stroke as required by class rules, I found that extensive engine work was needed along with a good exhaust system.

Jim
2mAn
QUOTE(Driver174 @ Oct 16 2018, 08:33 AM) *

I’m running a 914/4 - 2.0 with VARA in DP class. My car seems to be competitive, but required engine modifications beyond stock. Sticking with stock bore and stroke as required by class rules, I found that extensive engine work was needed along with a good exhaust system.

Jim


Hey Jim

What are the fast cars in DP? Ive been on the fence about taking the plunge with my Datsun Roadster 2000 and making it into a racecar or buying one thats already done.

-Simon
Driver174
QUOTE(2mAn @ Oct 17 2018, 03:19 PM) *

QUOTE(Driver174 @ Oct 16 2018, 08:33 AM) *

I’m running a 914/4 - 2.0 with VARA in DP class. My car seems to be competitive, but required engine modifications beyond stock. Sticking with stock bore and stroke as required by class rules, I found that extensive engine work was needed along with a good exhaust system.

Jim


Hey Jim

What are the fast cars in DP? Ive been on the fence about taking the plunge with my Datsun Roadster 2000 and making it into a racecar or buying one thats already done.

-Simon



I think the Roadsters are in EP, but are usually grouped with DP on the track.

There seems to be a number of fast Triumph's in DP; I think they are pretty light, and are driven by very talented pilots.


Jim
stownsen914
Re: the vintage classes from PCA Club Racing, below is a summary from their web site. Full 2018 rulebook at http://pcaclubracing.org/wp-content/upload...acing-Rules.pdf

PCA Vintage Group Club Racing is open to 1983 and older AIR COOLED Porsches. PCA Club Racing Rules will be enforced for Safety. Note that the rules now require full cages not just roll bars. The PCA Club Racing Rules are available here.

There will be six Vintage classes:
•Four cylinder over and under 2.0L (V4O, V4U),
•Six cylinder over and under 2.4L (VO, VU), and
•Six cylinder over and under 3.0L (VGTO, VGTU) high winged and/or aero bodies.

As such, engine displacement is open, but must be air-cooled. Tires are open.

Vintage Group entrants will not run for PCA National Points. Accordingly, the normally required Data Collection Plug is waived. (See CR Rules). Membership in PCA is required. All drivers must have a current PCA Competition License. (See CR Rules to see the Qualifications. It is simple to apply.)

New Licensees are advised to have their license paperwork submitted well in advance of an event. ALL licensing questions should be directed to Susan Shire.

As with the regular racing program, PCA Vintage Club Race events register through ClubRegistration.net.

Submit questions to:

Fred Pfeiffer
PCA Club Racing Vintage Coordinator
fpfeiffer@atlanticbb.net
301.707.9472

MikeSpraggi
QUOTE(stownsen914 @ Oct 20 2018, 01:35 PM) *

Re: the vintage classes from PCA Club Racing, below is a summary from their web site. Full 2018 rulebook at http://pcaclubracing.org/wp-content/upload...acing-Rules.pdf

PCA Vintage Group Club Racing is open to 1983 and older AIR COOLED Porsches. PCA Club Racing Rules will be enforced for Safety. Note that the rules now require full cages not just roll bars. The PCA Club Racing Rules are available here.

There will be six Vintage classes:
•Four cylinder over and under 2.0L (V4O, V4U),
•Six cylinder over and under 2.4L (VO, VU), and
•Six cylinder over and under 3.0L (VGTO, VGTU) high winged and/or aero bodies.

As such, engine displacement is open, but must be air-cooled. Tires are open.

Vintage Group entrants will not run for PCA National Points. Accordingly, the normally required Data Collection Plug is waived. (See CR Rules). Membership in PCA is required. All drivers must have a current PCA Competition License. (See CR Rules to see the Qualifications. It is simple to apply.)

New Licensees are advised to have their license paperwork submitted well in advance of an event. ALL licensing questions should be directed to Susan Shire.

As with the regular racing program, PCA Vintage Club Race events register through ClubRegistration.net.

Submit questions to:

Fred Pfeiffer
PCA Club Racing Vintage Coordinator
fpfeiffer@atlanticbb.net
301.707.9472


By the way, this a great vintage group to run with. Hope more Club race events include the vintage class. This season I ran with them at Lime Rock, Monticello Motor Club, NJMP Thunderbolt and Summit Point. Check out some of the videos on YT.
Heater Guy
QUOTE(RFoulds @ Oct 12 2018, 07:18 PM) *

Preparing a new race car build. Would like to run. Fairly stock 2.0 and don’t want to get into a class where the 914 won’t be competitive. If I have a fully caged and braced tub, modified suspension, modest weight reduction and a stock but carbed 2.0, what class would you suggest would be competitive to build toward? For VARA, POC, SVRA most likely.
Looking through all their GCR’s and classifications, there seems to be a few different ways to go.
Suggestions from those that have been there would be appreciated.


You could run SCCA Road Racing in Class E Production or F Production, depending on modifications.

If you go to SCCA Rules and checkout those classes. Albert from SanJose runs a 914-4 I think in EP.

Check it out. here is a sample.














Click to view attachment
Brett W
I would not recommend SCCA with any four cylinder 914. They just can't make the power reliably.
brant
I would also point out that PCA vintage classes run a formula for HP/ltr

It may have changed
but it used to be around 110hp/ltr as I recall
that is a very hard to achieve number in an air cooled car
a twin plug -6 has a chance if enough money is thrown at it

a 4 cylinder type4 motor is really.... really challenged to reach that number. the amount of money you would have to put into a 2.0 type 4 motor to reach 220hp at an honest 2liters is measured in the wheel barrows....

maybe the rules have changed
but pca is not a friendly venue to race a type4

vintage racing is where you can meet all of your wish list
ThePaintedMan
agree.gif SCCA has always been more friendly to water-pumpers and the 914 was crippled from the beginning. Chris Foley is one of the few people to be competitive with a 914 and only he can tell you what he spent engineering his car to do so. I have fun tooling around at the back of the SCCA vintage class with MGAs and other small-bore cars with a stock 1.8L. Eventually I'll swap in a Subaru motor and just go have fun in Champcar. We also happen to have an ITX class locally which allows engine swaps in SCCA, but it's just another place for Champcar/Lemons cars to race.
Brett W
QUOTE(ThePaintedMan @ Dec 11 2018, 11:10 AM) *

agree.gif Physics has always been more friendly to water-pumpers and the 914 was crippled from the beginning. Chris Foley is one of the few people to be competitive with a 914 and only he can tell you what he spent engineering his car to do so. I have fun tooling around at the back of the SCCA vintage class with MGAs and other small-bore cars with a stock 1.8L. Eventually I'll swap in a Subaru motor and just go have fun in Champcar. We also happen to have an ITX class locally which allows engine swaps in SCCA, but it's just another place for Champcar/Lemons cars to race.



Fixed that for you. biggrin.gif
GregAmy
914 2L goes to EP where it has to compete with some big-buck cars like Matt Reynold's Miata. Chris believes a 2L can be competitive in EP but it would take development.

914 1.7L and 1.8L are in FP against...Eric Prill's Miatas. Or Joe Huffaker's Midget. And Hondas.

No car will be "competitive" (read: able to win a championship) in Production without major investment and development. They may look straightforward and simple but there'$ $ome $erious dollar$ in development in that category.

Doesn't mean you can't go there and have some fun. I'm actually giving half-ass thought to selling the Super Touring Under car and just "playing" in EP with the 914; depends on how some support contracts work out. The Runoffs this year is at VIR and it will be one WHALE of an event, possibly with participation approaching what we saw at Indy in 2017. We'll see.

Up here in the Northeast I play in ITEZ, a catch-all SCCA Regional class that only requires Improved Touring-level safety equipment and DOT tires. But since it's a catch-all and there's no prep limits/regs/enforcement then it's just another place to play 'cause some guy will show up with a Turbo Porsche or another one with a Mustang.

Vintage/historics is the same. Anyone that thinks those guys are keeping the prep level of their cars to 'historic' levels is fooling themselves. I run with some groups up here (VRG, HRG, SVRA) and there's some $seriou$ development, just to go faster. But it's a nice place to play (in front of crowds sometimes like at the Lime Rock Labor Day Weekend Festival).

With "a stock but carbed 2.0" I'd suggest focusing attention on dependability and where and with whom you'd like to play, and less on how "competitive" you might be. Because no matter how much money you spend, there's always someone else out there willing to spend more. You need to find your water level.

And in the end you'll enjoy the fun more, right?
naro914
QUOTE(brant @ Dec 10 2018, 12:06 PM) *

I would also point out that PCA vintage classes run a formula for HP/ltr

It may have changed
but it used to be around 110hp/ltr as I recall
that is a very hard to achieve number in an air cooled car
a twin plug -6 has a chance if enough money is thrown at it

a 4 cylinder type4 motor is really.... really challenged to reach that number. the amount of money you would have to put into a 2.0 type 4 motor to reach 220hp at an honest 2liters is measured in the wheel barrows....

maybe the rules have changed
but pca is not a friendly venue to race a type4

vintage racing is where you can meet all of your wish list


Just saw this thread.
See above about post from stownsend914 about PCA Vintage classes. Has nothing to do with hp/ltr...that's GT classes, which is one reason PCA created the Vintage group because a lot of our older cars technically fall into GT class.

As Mike said...its a great group of people...some of the most fun racing I've ever had was with these guys!

Then again...I see you in California...I don't think we run any vintage group races in CA... sad.gif
Brett W
There will be a 914-6 competing in EP next year at a Runoff level. Will be interesting to see.

After looking at the rules, I think a 2.0 four could possible run pretty well. The engine could make the power. it could comfortably make 190hp, maybe 200. It is a level 1 prep so you could get the suspension nailed right.

It would take dedication to win in any of the Prod classes, but would be a fun project.
ablesnead
...It could comfortably make 200 hp.....really ! define comfortable...not a type 4 turning 8500 thats for sure
HAM Inc
QUOTE(ablesnead @ Jan 24 2019, 04:22 PM) *

...It could comfortably make 200 hp.....really ! define comfortable...not a type 4 turning 8500 thats for sure

Jake and I have collaborated on race T4's that exceeded 100hp/liter, including an EP 2.0/4 that reliably made north of 200hp and FP 1.8's that exceeded 180.

These engines would wind to over 8K, but made peak power around 7300.

Certainly not for the faint of wallet, but Prod racing a 914 competitively never will be.
ablesnead
Yes , I will admit that comfort is relative term..some engines cost 25.00 an hour ...even back in the day the Kirby car cost 2000.00 an hour ( I think it was Kirby , anyway the black and gold car that was competitive 20 years ago )...maybe with the talent you guys have engines last a longer run time now , but I haven't noticed it at the runoffs .
HAM Inc
QUOTE(ablesnead @ Jan 28 2019, 07:11 PM) *

Yes , I will admit that comfort is relative term..some engines cost 25.00 an hour ...even back in the day the Kirby car cost 2000.00 an hour ( I think it was Kirby , anyway the black and gold car that was competitive 20 years ago )...maybe with the talent you guys have engines last a longer run time now , but I haven't noticed it at the runoffs .

In the past when I tried to equate what I spent racing into a dollars/hour rate it always depressed me.

The cost of Prod racing anything at the pointy end of a Runoffs level field is eye popping enough when it's a Miata or a Honda or something modern and level 2 prep, but doing it with a 914 will take away a working-stiff's breath. Kirby was a billionaire who could drive. Lot more talented drivers than billionaires out there so more affordable options beckon.

A serious, well funded 914 effort with a good driver could be competitive, if not dominant. But it will be expensive by the typical amateur racer's budget, and if successful bet on a rules change to favor the modern, more affordable marques SCCA seems to favor over Porsche.
ablesnead
....Well said...
campbellcj
QUOTE(HAM Inc @ Jan 29 2019, 06:26 PM) *


In the past when I tried to equate what I spent racing into a dollars/hour rate it always depressed me.



I use dollars/minute these days cuz the numbers don't seem as scary huh.gif
campbellcj
Seriously though for the OP - I can tell you that, sadly, after driving with POC for around 20 years there are basically no (other) 914s left. There would be a class into which any level of stock or modded 914 would fit, technically, but really they've not been competitive in POC either in recent decades if ever. At my last event in Nov there was (1) other 914, a beautiful -6 with mechanical issues so not on track.

Here is the POC GCR sheet for calculating GT classes (power/weight) which is where anything with significant mods lands these days. http://www.porscheclub.com/wp-content/uplo...-Appendix-D.pdf Of course GT1-GT4 are the "big dog" classes, extremely competitive experienced racers with some $$$ budgets...

Unfortunately about the same with VARA in SoCal as well -- last event, zero 914s. However, this field is where a 914 could be fun and competitive, if anywhere...Datsun 510s, MGs and so forth. Except they run mainly the big/fast tracks which again, not much fun in a 914...
brant
QUOTE(campbellcj @ Feb 1 2019, 07:43 AM) *

Seriously though for the OP - I can tell you that, sadly, after driving with POC for around 20 years there are basically no (other) 914s left. There would be a class into which any level of stock or modded 914 would fit, technically, but really they've not been competitive in POC either in recent decades if ever. At my last event in Nov there was (1) other 914, a beautiful -6 with mechanical issues so not on track.

Here is the POC GCR sheet for calculating GT classes (power/weight) which is where anything with significant mods lands these days. http://www.porscheclub.com/wp-content/uplo...-Appendix-D.pdf Of course GT1-GT4 are the "big dog" classes, extremely competitive experienced racers with some $$$ budgets...

Unfortunately about the same with VARA in SoCal as well -- last event, zero 914s. However, this field is where a 914 could be fun and competitive, if anywhere...Datsun 510s, MGs and so forth. Except they run mainly the big/fast tracks which again, not much fun in a 914...


Chris,
that used to be my experience in PCA club racing too. 914's disappeared and technology moved on into water cooled cars. I have a hard time believing that I would be satisfied moving back to PCA in their new "vintage" classes...

I believe they have 6 of these vintage races across the entire US per a season?
even If I'm wrong on that number... I know PCA only has 1 race a year in a region
so small fields with lots of travel... hmmmm


Vintage is the way to go
especially a good period correct vintage club like CVAR or RMVR, etc.

we have 7 914's currently in rmvr
they don't all show up at every event
but they run in a small bore run group with mostly british and Japanese cars
often 30 or more cars in the field and on the track at once!

Chris, you need to take your car vintage racing
you may need to dial back the prep a bit, but competition and multiple cars to play with can be just as fun as giant horsepower and displacement.
RFoulds
Lots of great input here guys. Thank you. Currently targeting VARA FP class, 2.0 liter. Just picked up another car and starting the build.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Invision Power Board © 2001-2019 Invision Power Services, Inc.