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naro914
with all the work we're doing on Papa Smurf, one of big pieces of the development is tying the roll cage to the rear and front suspension points, plus doing tubing to strengthen other points around the car.

Would like to see how people run the tubes from the roll cage, through the fire wall or window, through the engine compartment area, into the rear trunk to the shock towers. We have things in the way there, but will move around if needed....

Thanks!
Mr. Olympic Blue 2 You
Good luck with the refresh Bob!
Chi-town
That style cross brace in the halo will collapse inward on roll over ask me how I know sad.gif

Here's a FIA legal one
https://www.customcages.co.uk/roll-cages/porsche-914
naro914
Nice...I could use that rotisserie...
Brett W
If I were doing the chassis, I would cut the current "roll cage" out altogether. I know its a pain in the ass, but there are way too many compromises in said "roll cage".

There is no lateral brace connecting the a-piillar bars at the door bar intersection and the main hoop door bar intersection. This will lead to a collapse inward should you take a hit in the door bar. The door bars will simply fold the cage up like a wet noodle. That looks like an Autopower type cage. Very old and poor design.

Once you pull the dash out of the car you can push the a-pillar bars further out to properly support the front of the car. Then build a proper dash bar supports and triagulates the door bars, with the A-pillars, and the strut tower bars. You will want to go through the firewall and connect the shock towers to the a-pillars, and you want to come down to the base of the a-pillar bars to keep the front of the car from folding into your feet.

As for the rear suspension you want to connect the rear shock towers to the main hoop and connect the rear suspension mounting points to the main hoop. The rear suspension mounts flex terribly and tying them into the roll cage will make the car more comfortable to drive.
Heater Guy
QUOTE(naro914 @ Oct 26 2018, 07:33 AM) *

with all the work we're doing on Papa Smurf, one of big pieces of the development is tying the roll cage to the rear and front suspension points, plus doing tubing to strengthen other points around the car.

Would like to see how people run the tubes from the roll cage, through the fire wall or window, through the engine compartment area, into the rear trunk to the shock towers. We have things in the way there, but will move around if needed....

Thanks!

I am parting out my 914. The cage was built to FIA specs. by Matter in Germany. Side bars were added to meet SCCA requirements. The rear braces go through the rear window and attach to the shock towers.Click to view attachment
Krieger
Check out my F-914 build in my signature. I have Chris Foley's roll cage that I added to.
Brett W
That cage is of questionable legality for SCCA and NASA, probably PCA and POC as well.
Brett W
That cage is of questionable legality for SCCA and NASA, probably PCA and POC as well.
ChrisFoley
Click to view attachment

Click to view attachment
mlindner
Here's mine Bob. Best, MarkClick to view attachment Click to view attachment
mlindner
One more shot of the passenger compartment before painting.Click to view attachment
campbellcj
Here is a car I saw (I think) at a VARA event last year. Unsure of owner/builder.

Click to view attachment
Heater Guy
QUOTE(naro914 @ Oct 26 2018, 06:33 AM) *

with all the work we're doing on Papa Smurf, one of big pieces of the development is tying the roll cage to the rear and front suspension points, plus doing tubing to strengthen other points around the car.

Would like to see how people run the tubes from the roll cage, through the fire wall or window, through the engine compartment area, into the rear trunk to the shock towers. We have things in the way there, but will move around if needed....

Thanks!



This cage is legal for SCCA. Just removed it from the car. It was originally made Germany for FIA regulations.

Click to view attachmentClick to view attachmentClick to view attachment[attachmentid=677
523]
naro914
QUOTE(Heater Guy @ Dec 4 2018, 09:41 PM) *


This cage is legal for SCCA. Just removed it from the car. It was originally made Germany for FIA regulations.

Click to view attachmentClick to view attachmentClick to view attachment[attachmentid=677
523]

sooo....about that cable shifter...what engine/trans you got in there???
Heater Guy
QUOTE(naro914 @ Dec 4 2018, 06:01 PM) *

QUOTE(Heater Guy @ Dec 4 2018, 09:41 PM) *


This cage is legal for SCCA. Just removed it from the car. It was originally made Germany for FIA regulations.

Click to view attachmentClick to view attachmentClick to view attachment[attachmentid=677
523]

sooo....about that cable shifter...what engine/trans you got in there???



2.7 L Subaru 4 cyl with Subaru 5 speed.
naro914
^^ah. thanks
ChrisFoley
Without a full width main hoop crossbar that cage is not legal for SCCA Club Racing.
naro914
That’s what my cage crossbar is like and it’s legal
ChrisFoley
QUOTE(naro914 @ Dec 5 2018, 08:31 AM) *

That’s what my cage crossbar is like and it’s legal

The diagonal is fine, but without a horizontal crossbar it is not approved for wheel to wheel racing.
naro914
QUOTE(ChrisFoley @ Dec 5 2018, 09:35 AM) *

QUOTE(naro914 @ Dec 5 2018, 08:31 AM) *

That’s what my cage crossbar is like and it’s legal

The diagonal is fine, but without a horizontal crossbar it is not approved for wheel to wheel racing.

This is how the cage has always been in our car
I’ve run multiple SCCA club races like this.

Click to view attachment
Chi-town
Then the Tech inspector wasn't doing his job.

Were these club events wheel to wheel or Solo?

I don't see a dash bar and those door bars don't look legal either.
naro914
QUOTE(Chi-town @ Dec 5 2018, 11:53 AM) *

Then the Tech inspector wasn't doing his job.

Were these club events wheel to wheel or Solo?

I don't see a dash bar and those door bars don't look legal either.

this is a race car, not a solo car....5 years of racing. many different tech inspectors. Won GT2 class and Big Bore group multiple times. Regional and Majors club races.
Never a question.


Heater Guy
QUOTE(naro914 @ Dec 5 2018, 06:40 AM) *

QUOTE(ChrisFoley @ Dec 5 2018, 09:35 AM) *

QUOTE(naro914 @ Dec 5 2018, 08:31 AM) *

That’s what my cage crossbar is like and it’s legal

The diagonal is fine, but without a horizontal crossbar it is not approved for wheel to wheel racing.

This is how the cage has always been in our car
I’ve run multiple SCCA club races like this.




Depending on class, for years a dash bar wasn't required by SCCA. Some may have been Grandfathered in. This is SCCA General Competition Rules from 2008. See pdf attached.






Click to view attachment
Heater Guy
QUOTE(Heater Guy @ Dec 5 2018, 01:30 PM) *

QUOTE(naro914 @ Dec 5 2018, 06:40 AM) *

QUOTE(ChrisFoley @ Dec 5 2018, 09:35 AM) *

QUOTE(naro914 @ Dec 5 2018, 08:31 AM) *

That’s what my cage crossbar is like and it’s legal

The diagonal is fine, but without a horizontal crossbar it is not approved for wheel to wheel racing.

This is how the cage has always been in our car
I’ve run multiple SCCA club races like this.




Depending on class, for years a dash bar wasn't required by SCCA. Some may have been Grandfathered in. This is SCCA General Competition Rules from 2008. See pdf attached.

The attached pdf is from the current SCCA GCR. A dash bar is recommended.








Click to view attachment

Click to view attachment
naro914
Recommended, not required.
We can’t put a knee bar on anyway. Nadine drives all the way forward and her legs already almost touch the dash bottom. Knee bar would be impossible...and dangerous.
campbellcj
QUOTE(naro914 @ Dec 5 2018, 01:59 PM) *

Recommended, not required.
We can’t put a knee bar on anyway. Nadine drives all the way forward and her legs already almost touch the dash bottom. Knee bar would be impossible...and dangerous.


Not necessarily, if moved forward enough. Mine is well forward 'under' the dash not in-front like most you see.
brant
agreed with Chris

knee bars go inside the dash and as high up as the steering column
Brett W
Yup, you need a better fabricator. Proper dash bar goes no where near sensitive body parts.

Since you have GT type car, I might even be tempted to "remove" the targa bar, put the main hoop back in the middle of the targa bar and then reinstall the skin of the targa bar around the cage. Pretty time consuming, but it would be really slick moving the main hoop back another 3-4in to help re-position the driver.
stownsen914
Definitely want a dash bar and a horizontal bar across middle or bottom of the roll hoop too. Otherwise you risk having the cage fold in on you in the event of a hard side hit.
naro914
OK then, can someone show pictures of their knee bars? Right now, Nadine's knees/shins pretty much touch the bottom of the dash without a bar and no lower dash pad. (in Huey with the lower dash pad, she touches the lower dash pad). if its back too far, you lose access to reaching under the dash to mount things don't you?

I guess I just can't visualize how to put this in without it being really in the way and making it dangerous. We've had this same style roll cage in the car for over 20 years, raced in multiple series...never a problem.
Jetsetsurfshop
My knee bar is almost touching the lower part of the dash and that's after I removed the lower dash pad. On top of that NASA made me add padding to it. The only thing I could do in my car to raise it would be remote the factory dash, raise that bar, and fabricate a new dash.
I have had quite a few drivers in my car with no problems. Is you A pillar bar as far forward as it could be?
ChrisFoley
Forward hoops which penetrate the stock dash are generally necessary to get the "knee bar" in a safe location.
A bar which is bent at both ends to make it closer to the front bulkhead is perfectly legal and makes the cage much sturdier than one with no dash bar.

This dash bar will not be anywhere near the drivers knees. However it may interfere with some gauge packages.

Click to view attachment

brant
Ours:
Brett W
Sounds like your seat is pushed too far forward or something. You were running stock type floor mount pedals in Papa Smurf weren't you?

I don't remember Nadine being excessively tall. Any pics of your or Nadine sitting in the car? (preferably shot through an open door.)
naro914
Nadine sits with the seat as far forward as she can get it, and up as high as she can go (we put additional bottom and back pads in for her) so she can reach the pedals comfortably. I sit with the seat all the way back and no extra pad so my head doesn't hit the roof.
If she's even back one click on the slider, she can't push the clutch pedal in far enough. she has very small feet and shorter legs.

its not like we just started driving...been driving this car for 25 years now.
brant
QUOTE(stownsen914 @ Dec 9 2018, 10:00 PM) *

Definitely want a horizontal bar across middle or bottom of the roll hoop too. Otherwise you risk having the cage fold in on you in the event of a hard side hit.



if you modify the cage I would agree with this as another very important addition

If the car is hit (Tboned) at the factory jack point
the long will crush and move inward

As the car is crushed inward, the seat belts will tighten and crush the occupant

914's are notoriously weak in this side impact... and I have seen longitudinals move 12 inches inward... pushing the floor pan 12 inches... pushing the seat mounted to the floor pan 12 inches... and causing any seat belts to squeeze the occupant about 12 inches tighter than they were adjusted to

also with the factory brace bar cut out of the floor pan
(forward seat adjusting mount from the factory)
The vehicle and floorboard are even more susceptible in a side impact
you may want to add that factory cross brace back in. its a safety item
Jetsetsurfshop
My knee bar, from Tangerine.
Brett W
Too low, Nadine is now an amputee. That design won't work.

If you are building a race car, might as well toss the stock dash and fabricate what you need. Its your car, it should fit you (and Nadine).

I have a design in mind for a seat like a forumula car, that is built into the cockpit. Do that, it gets you down low and you carry custom molded seat inserts for each driver. It looks pretty unconventional, but it could be awesome.
GregAmy
Good morning! Just catching this thread, wanted to follow up. I am a Nationally-licensed SCCA scrutineer and a racer.

First, what the regs were when the car was built*, or what someone may have approved in the past, is not relevant. You have to meet current GCR regs to run in SCCA Club Racing. The GCR is constantly updated and can be found here:

https://www.scca.com/pages/cars-and-rules

Rollcage regs have been fairly consistent over the last decade or so; major changes in recent years include:

- Requirement for full-width main hoop bar (mid-90s, due to a cage collapse on an SSB car)
- Requirement for two door bars on drivers side (wreck circa 1999)
- Requirements for two door bars both sides (another wreck, around 2004)

Cage tubing sizes have changed over the years based on design requirements changes; anyone that compares this years book to, say, 1999 will find thicker tubing yet fewer weight brackets.

Now, there are some design elements of the rollcage that can be grandfathered in for cars that have been previously logbooked*, but generally there is a minimum-required safety standard that all cars have to meet, regardless of initial logbook issuance.

This car's requirements fall under GCR 9.4, "ROLL CAGES FOR GT AND PRODUCTION BASED CARS", page GCR 86 in the December PDF. Further, since it has the full windshield, it cannot take advantage of the "asymmetric" hoop design. Is the car going to be run with the targa top? Then it's considered an enclosed car. Without the Targa is "open top" regs.

Per the discussions above, GCR 9.4.B.2.a clearly states, "Main hoops shall incorporate a diagonal brace", which this one has.

However, GCR 9.4.B.2.b also clearly states, "Cars must incorporate a main hoop horizontal brace at the approximate level of the driver’s shoulders but not lower than the shoulder belt mounting point as described in section 9.3."

This car does not have that required horizontal brace.

GCR 9.4.C.1.c clearly states, "All open cars with a high front hoop and all closed cars except those competing in the T4, Improved Touring, Spec Miata, and B-Spec classes must incorporate a horizontal front hoop brace at the approximate level of the dashboard."

This car does not yet have that required horizontal brace.

I don't recall reading what the weight of your car is, but I'm assuming you'll fit into the 1701-2699 pound bracket. That requires 1.50x.095 or 1.625x.0080 minimum DOM mild steel. I do NOT recommend chromoly, simply because none of us generally have the ability to properly heat treat welded chromoly tubing. Stick with DOM mild steel.

It's all fine and good that someone has signed off the car, and that you have not had any grief from anyone in subsequent annual inspections and events. When I'm initially inspecting a car and issuing a logbook, I'm quite careful and detailed and ensure everything is up to spec. However, I'll freely admit that when doing subsequent annual inspections I'm less careful, trusting prior scrutineers' inspections. So it's certainly probable that this has slipped through some scrutineers' eyes. Or, we've taken it for granted that since the car has been racing for seemingly forever the design must be fine.

But just because it's been that way forever doesn't mean it meets the current regs. Maybe the regs have changed since it was initially inspected?

Bottom line, based on very little info in this thread, I do not believe the current design meets the current SCCA GCR requirements. And while you've been perfectly fine racing it that way, you run the risk of someone casually looking inside and thinking, "hey, that's not right" and they pull you off the track for not meeting minimum safety requirements. Believe me, I've done it (stick your finger around the top of some production-car-based rollcages and you may find incomplete welds (yeah, I couldn't get up there), poor welding quality (well the last guy passed it!) and I've even seen people using JB Weld or body putty to make really bad welds look good.

If I see that, I won't allow you on the track. I can't, it's not right.

Finally, I read some comments above about this cage being built to FIA specs. That's a great start! However note that unless the cage is actually "FIA Certified" for its application, it is still required to meet SCCA minimum design requirements. And, if the cage actually is "FIA Certified" then the inspector needs to have that paperwork to use as a basis for issuing the logbook, and once issued that cage cannot be subsequently modified. So I don't think we're looking at any kind of FIA certification that applies here.

Download the GCR, it's free. These are the minimum standards that have to be met. Always print it out and bring it to your cage builder, ensure he/she reads and understands it, and asks you if they have any questions.

*Now, THAT ALL SAID...there exists in the GCR Appendix I which exists for cars logbooked prior to 2008 (what's the initial date of your first SCCA logbook issued?) At the time of writing, "GT" cars were considered to be those of tubeframe construction, so I suggest yours would use the Production regs.

It's not a group of regs that I encourage anyone to use; after all, the latest rollcage regs have all been written in someone's blood, and these Appendix I allowance were a nod to old cars that may show up once in a while.

Despite this, within Appendix I the horizontal bracing is not explicitly called out, and the accompanying drawings indicate that the horizontal bar is "recommended."

"It is recommended that the vertical bars of the front hoop be connected by a horizontal bar at a point above the driver’s legs."

I also point out that Appendix I states, "Specific installations are subject to approval by the Technical and Safety Inspectors at each event." So you're still maintain some risk of being excluded. Better keep a copy of the GCR with you and be prepared to plead your case.

If your car has its initial logbook prior to 2008, you may choose to use a cage to either specs. However, note Appendix I was intended to grandfather legacy cars that were already built, ones that were not expected to be updated for competition. As such, the logbook goes with the cage, kinda like how the engine number goes with the chassis. If you replace and/or recreate that cage, you lose that logbook and must build your new cage to the latest requirements. Though, it's quite likely you can find a buddy locally to wink, wink, nod, nod re-stamp your new cage with the old number and pretend it's the original cage. That's up to your conscience, no one else will know except you two...

I've been doing this for a while, long enough to know exactly who these regs were written from. For example, Jay Wright at the 1993(?) Runoffs was the impetus for the horizontal bar. We used to only install a half-width horizontal bar, from the driver's side to the diagonal, to keep the seat from moving backwards in a crash and allowing the driver's head to hit the diagonal element. We also used it for shoulder harness attachments. That's what was in Jay's SSB car when it hit the tire wall along the Road Atlanta front straight coming out of Turn 12. The car went airborne and landed on the roof. The diagonal along with the horizontal half-element moved out of the plane of the main hoop, allowing the main hoop to collapse sideways and the roof came "down" on Jay's head, making him a paraplegic until the day he died. He lived a good life, and did a lot of good things for racing (technical recommendations, scrutineering, developing an affordable H&NR, the Wright Device; he was actually a NASA rocket scientist) before eventually succumbing to complications from his injuries.

As a result, we began requiring the horizontal to go all the way across and we added a diagonal within the rear hoop bracings.

Bottom line, do you want to be out there among big-bore fast cars with a outdated cage? Again, your call. After all, in the end it's your ass on the line, not mine. I sign off on your max-built cage and then you wreck your car, I go to the worker party and have some beer. I sign off your minimum-built cage and you wreck your car, I still go to the worker party and have some beer. But we'll hoist one in your honor.

I know this was a windy, heady, "harsh my mellow" post, and I apologize for those bored with it. But I do encourage well-built safety systems that exceed the minimum requirements.

Greg
Chi-town
@GregAmy - Thank you for the post and clarification.
ThePaintedMan
agree.gif Greg nailed it. Which also makes me re-think my cage moving forward. Should have just bought the Tangerine Racing cage and been done with it from day 1. headbang.gif
Heater Guy
QUOTE(GregAmy @ Dec 11 2018, 06:56 AM) *

Good morning! Just catching this thread, wanted to follow up. I am a Nationally-licensed SCCA scrutineer and a racer.

First, what the regs were when the car was built*, or what someone may have approved in the past, is not relevant. You have to meet current GCR regs to run in SCCA Club Racing. The GCR is constantly updated and can be found here:

https://www.scca.com/pages/cars-and-rules

Rollcage regs have been fairly consistent over the last decade or so; major changes in recent years include:

- Requirement for full-width main hoop bar (mid-90s, due to a cage collapse on an SSB car)
- Requirement for two door bars on drivers side (wreck circa 1999)
- Requirements for two door bars both sides (another wreck, around 2004)

Cage tubing sizes have changed over the years based on design requirements changes; anyone that compares this years book to, say, 1999 will find thicker tubing yet fewer weight brackets.

Now, there are some design elements of the rollcage that can be grandfathered in for cars that have been previously logbooked*, but generally there is a minimum-required safety standard that all cars have to meet, regardless of initial logbook issuance.

This car's requirements fall under GCR 9.4, "ROLL CAGES FOR GT AND PRODUCTION BASED CARS", page GCR 86 in the December PDF. Further, since it has the full windshield, it cannot take advantage of the "asymmetric" hoop design. Is the car going to be run with the targa top? Then it's considered an enclosed car. Without the Targa is "open top" regs.

Per the discussions above, GCR 9.4.B.2.a clearly states, "Main hoops shall incorporate a diagonal brace", which this one has.

However, GCR 9.4.B.2.b also clearly states, "Cars must incorporate a main hoop horizontal brace at the approximate level of the driver’s shoulders but not lower than the shoulder belt mounting point as described in section 9.3."

This car does not have that required horizontal brace.

GCR 9.4.C.1.c clearly states, "All open cars with a high front hoop and all closed cars except those competing in the T4, Improved Touring, Spec Miata, and B-Spec classes must incorporate a horizontal front hoop brace at the approximate level of the dashboard."

This car does not yet have that required horizontal brace.

I don't recall reading what the weight of your car is, but I'm assuming you'll fit into the 1701-2699 pound bracket. That requires 1.50x.095 or 1.625x.0080 minimum DOM mild steel. I do NOT recommend chromoly, simply because none of us generally have the ability to properly heat treat welded chromoly tubing. Stick with DOM mild steel.

It's all fine and good that someone has signed off the car, and that you have not had any grief from anyone in subsequent annual inspections and events. When I'm initially inspecting a car and issuing a logbook, I'm quite careful and detailed and ensure everything is up to spec. However, I'll freely admit that when doing subsequent annual inspections I'm less careful, trusting prior scrutineers' inspections. So it's certainly probable that this has slipped through some scrutineers' eyes. Or, we've taken it for granted that since the car has been racing for seemingly forever the design must be fine.

But just because it's been that way forever doesn't mean it meets the current regs. Maybe the regs have changed since it was initially inspected?

Bottom line, based on very little info in this thread, I do not believe the current design meets the current SCCA GCR requirements. And while you've been perfectly fine racing it that way, you run the risk of someone casually looking inside and thinking, "hey, that's not right" and they pull you off the track for not meeting minimum safety requirements. Believe me, I've done it (stick your finger around the top of some production-car-based rollcages and you may find incomplete welds (yeah, I couldn't get up there), poor welding quality (well the last guy passed it!) and I've even seen people using JB Weld or body putty to make really bad welds look good.

If I see that, I won't allow you on the track. I can't, it's not right.

Finally, I read some comments above about this cage being built to FIA specs. That's a great start! However note that unless the cage is actually "FIA Certified" for its application, it is still required to meet SCCA minimum design requirements. And, if the cage actually is "FIA Certified" then the inspector needs to have that paperwork to use as a basis for issuing the logbook, and once issued that cage cannot be subsequently modified. So I don't think we're looking at any kind of FIA certification that applies here.

Download the GCR, it's free. These are the minimum standards that have to be met. Always print it out and bring it to your cage builder, ensure he/she reads and understands it, and asks you if they have any questions.

*Now, THAT ALL SAID...there exists in the GCR Appendix I which exists for cars logbooked prior to 2008 (what's the initial date of your first SCCA logbook issued?) At the time of writing, "GT" cars were considered to be those of tubeframe construction, so I suggest yours would use the Production regs.

It's not a group of regs that I encourage anyone to use; after all, the latest rollcage regs have all been written in someone's blood, and these Appendix I allowance were a nod to old cars that may show up once in a while.

Despite this, within Appendix I the horizontal bracing is not explicitly called out, and the accompanying drawings indicate that the horizontal bar is "recommended."

"It is recommended that the vertical bars of the front hoop be connected by a horizontal bar at a point above the driver’s legs."

I also point out that Appendix I states, "Specific installations are subject to approval by the Technical and Safety Inspectors at each event." So you're still maintain some risk of being excluded. Better keep a copy of the GCR with you and be prepared to plead your case.

If your car has its initial logbook prior to 2008, you may choose to use a cage to either specs. However, note Appendix I was intended to grandfather legacy cars that were already built, ones that were not expected to be updated for competition. As such, the logbook goes with the cage, kinda like how the engine number goes with the chassis. If you replace and/or recreate that cage, you lose that logbook and must build your new cage to the latest requirements. Though, it's quite likely you can find a buddy locally to wink, wink, nod, nod re-stamp your new cage with the old number and pretend it's the original cage. That's up to your conscience, no one else will know except you two...

I've been doing this for a while, long enough to know exactly who these regs were written from. For example, Jay Wright at the 1993(?) Runoffs was the impetus for the horizontal bar. We used to only install a half-width horizontal bar, from the driver's side to the diagonal, to keep the seat from moving backwards in a crash and allowing the driver's head to hit the diagonal element. We also used it for shoulder harness attachments. That's what was in Jay's SSB car when it hit the tire wall along the Road Atlanta front straight coming out of Turn 12. The car went airborne and landed on the roof. The diagonal along with the horizontal half-element moved out of the plane of the main hoop, allowing the main hoop to collapse sideways and the roof came "down" on Jay's head, making him a paraplegic until the day he died. He lived a good life, and did a lot of good things for racing (technical recommendations, scrutineering, developing an affordable H&NR, the Wright Device; he was actually a NASA rocket scientist) before eventually succumbing to complications from his injuries.

As a result, we began requiring the horizontal to go all the way across and we added a diagonal within the rear hoop bracings.

Bottom line, do you want to be out there among big-bore fast cars with a outdated cage? Again, your call. After all, in the end it's your ass on the line, not mine. I sign off on your max-built cage and then you wreck your car, I go to the worker party and have some beer. I sign off your minimum-built cage and you wreck your car, I still go to the worker party and have some beer. But we'll hoist one in your honor.

I know this was a windy, heady, "harsh my mellow" post, and I apologize for those bored with it. But I do encourage well-built safety systems that exceed the minimum requirements.

Greg

Thanks for the explanation.

Ron
SFR. Pit Fire 09 T2
sixnotfour
I cut the dash so the knee bar would be higher...hopefully not being a knee bar.....with a pad its the same height as the factory dash knee pad
GregAmy
The orange historics car has a Foley cage from '98. The dash bar is right across the back of the dash cluster. That was perfect when the prior owner had installed a Stack 8130. And it was Ok when replaced that old tech and tried a leftover less-old Race Technology Dash-1. But I wanted the analog needle movement so I reinstalled the factory tach and the terminals **just** cleared the dash bar, though I had to bend them away slightly to clear.

Keep that in mind as you're planning your design.
naro914
Just met with my fabricator and he had already planned to put the dash bar in there (unbeknownst to me) and we worked out how to put the horizontal bar in so it doesn't infringe on my seat back.

he's running the dash bar behind the dash face, and right above the steering column bracket. Its pretty wide open there so it makes a nice straight shot from right to left forward cage legs. We're putting in an AIM Dash so there should be plenty of room.

Plus double row "NASCAR" style door bars.

He's worked for a few NASCAR teams and currently does the media blasting for a bunch of big name teams, so he knows a lot about the cages and structure.

So....everyone can calm down now! beerchug.gif

But to respond to a few assumptions being made:

The car was SCCA Club Race Log Booked in 2014 and PCA Club race log booked in 2006. The cage was inspected and stamped by both entities. I have NEVER been questioned and since I've won a few entire groups and always in top 3 overall , I am always in SCCA impound. (every race). Again...never questioned.

But...as someone that owns a business dedicated to selling safety equipment for race and track...safety has to be the driving force on how we do things.

Thank everyone for derailing this thread!! LOL...all I had asked about was the shock tower bracing!! But some very good information here.... smile.gif
Heater Guy
QUOTE(naro914 @ Dec 12 2018, 09:29 AM) *

Just met with my fabricator and he had already planned to put the dash bar in there (unbeknownst to me) and we worked out how to put the horizontal bar in so it doesn't infringe on my seat back.

he's running the dash bar behind the dash face, and right above the steering column bracket. Its pretty wide open there so it makes a nice straight shot from right to left forward cage legs. We're putting in an AIM Dash so there should be plenty of room.

Plus double row "NASCAR" style door bars.

He's worked for a few NASCAR teams and currently does the media blasting for a bunch of big name teams, so he knows a lot about the cages and structure.

So....everyone can calm down now! beerchug.gif

But to respond to a few assumptions being made:

The car was SCCA Club Race Log Booked in 2014 and PCA Club race log booked in 2006. The cage was inspected and stamped by both entities. I have NEVER been questioned and since I've won a few entire groups and always in top 3 overall , I am always in SCCA impound. (every race). Again...never questioned.

But...as someone that owns a business dedicated to selling safety equipment for race and track...safety has to be the driving force on how we do things.

Thank everyone for derailing this thread!! LOL...all I had asked about was the shock tower bracing!! But some very good information here.... smile.gif


It must be realized that, for one reason or another, there is no one
Cage requirement in the SCCA GCR's. Interpretation of the rules is
Always an issue. Unfortunely there isn't a cookie cutter solution which all. Example, if tubes tie into suspension points, in compliance
with the GCR's in cage design, it may be in violation in the GCR's under chassis strengthing prohibition. This why one scrutiner
may see the rules one way and another will see them another. They are all trying to help keep us safe and in compliance.





naro914
QUOTE(Heater Guy @ Dec 12 2018, 02:28 PM) *

It must be realized that, for one reason or another, there is no one
Cage requirement in the SCCA GCR's. Interpretation of the rules is
Always an issue. Unfortunely there isn't a cookie cutter solution which all. Example, if tubes tie into suspension points, in compliance
with the GCR's in cage design, it may be in violation in the GCR's under chassis strengthing prohibition. This why one scrutiner
may see the rules one way and another will see them another. They are all trying to help keep us safe and in compliance.

Yes and no...as Greg pointed out, there are clear cage requirements for GT class cars, which Papa Smurf is (GT2). It was NOT SCCA log booked before 2008, so it has to conform to the requirements as he noted.

To be honest...I think one of the biggest issues that all volunteer organizations face (and even some pro ones), is the ever changing rules that are admitedly put there for a good reason, but for a volunteer scrutineer to be able to keep up with them is not always possible. My wife was a PCA scrutineer for a pretty long time, and she just couldn't always keep up with all the changes.
Heater Guy
QUOTE(naro914 @ Dec 12 2018, 11:00 AM) *

QUOTE(Heater Guy @ Dec 12 2018, 02:28 PM) *

It must be realized that, for one reason or another, there is no one
Cage requirement in the SCCA GCR's. Interpretation of the rules is
Always an issue. Unfortunely there isn't a cookie cutter solution which all. Example, if tubes tie into suspension points, in compliance
with the GCR's in cage design, it may be in violation in the GCR's under chassis strengthing prohibition. This why one scrutiner
may see the rules one way and another will see them another. They are all trying to help keep us safe and in compliance.

Yes and no...as Greg pointed out, there are clear cage requirements for GT class cars, which Papa Smurf is (GT2). It was NOT SCCA log booked before 2008, so it has to conform to the requirements as he noted.

To be honest...I think one of the biggest issues that all volunteer organizations face (and even some pro ones), is the ever changing rules that are admitedly put there for a good reason, but for a volunteer scrutineer to be able to keep up with them is not always possible. My wife was a PCA scrutineer for a pretty long time, and she just couldn't always keep up with all the changes.


Agree. Monthly SCCA Fast Tracks can sometimes drive me nuts.
GregAmy
QUOTE(Heater Guy @ Dec 12 2018, 02:14 PM) *
Agree. Monthly SCCA Fast Tracks can sometimes drive me nuts.

biggrin.gif

I'm weird: I actually look forward to them! I used to be on the Super Touring Advisory Committee to the CRB, so I'm a bit of a rules nerd...nerdly enough to where I actually wrote regs (helped create the category)...

The Court Of Appeals is my favorite section of Fastrack...so much drama...I appeared in it earlier this year...

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